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Offline atilla  
#1 Posted : 19 March 2009 15:08:32(UTC)
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atilla


Joined: 13/11/2008(UTC)
Posts: 381
Location: Richmond, Virginia
I was reading a very interesting topic about pantographs and catenary in which one of the posts mentioned disasters on the layout involving the pantograph of a speeding train getting caught on the catenary and the subsequent mess. These discussions made me wonder if this sort of thing happens on the prototypes? I assume that things must be designed to preserve the overhead wires at the the expense of the overhead wires; but, what are all the real world considerations?
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Offline spitzenklasse  
#2 Posted : 19 March 2009 15:13:35(UTC)
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spitzenklasse


Joined: 06/04/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,573
Location: ,
Greetings Atilla! I.M.H.O., well yes speed kills? I've had a couple mishaps. $18 to replace a panto on my br 152 100 jare DB museum Loco.
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Offline Ranjit  
#3 Posted : 19 March 2009 15:55:26(UTC)
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Ranjit


Joined: 18/06/2003(UTC)
Posts: 3,023
Location: Chennai, Tamil Nadu, INDIA
Shouldn't this topic be moved to "Prototypes"?

Cheers,
Ranjit
Modelling in HO Scale - Era III & IV. K+M Track, Analogue + Digital
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Offline hasan  
#4 Posted : 19 March 2009 16:02:20(UTC)
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hasan


Joined: 08/12/2005(UTC)
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Does this answer to your question? [:0]



Bye,
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Offline supermoee  
#5 Posted : 19 March 2009 16:03:44(UTC)
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supermoee

Switzerland   
Joined: 31/05/2007(UTC)
Posts: 534
Hello Attila,

these accidents happened often at the beginning of high speed traffic in Italy.
In Italy they run DC 3000V power supply, so to transmit high power a big section of the catenary is needed because of the low voltage and high current.
So the catenary was very heavy and it happened often, that the ETR500 high speed train took the catenary with him because of resonance of the catenary.
I tried to stay for hours in such a train without airconditioning and with non opening windows, waiting that a diesel loco come to tow the train to the next station.

rgds

Stephan
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Offline atilla  
#6 Posted : 19 March 2009 16:42:55(UTC)
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atilla


Joined: 13/11/2008(UTC)
Posts: 381
Location: Richmond, Virginia
What a good YouTube! I suppose that is the result of wear on the pantograph; but, I guess it could as easily be the other way round, where wear on the catenary causes premature failure on the pantograph.

When I was a kid, we used to put nails on the tracks (low speed feeder line for the local tire factory). These flattened objects were great prizes in grade school. I'm pretty sure this would not have been the thing to do on a high speed line.

It sets me to wondering, I've seen tennis shoes tied together by their laces and tossed into the air so that they catch on phone or power lines. I would guess that this action would be very bad on catenary and heavily discouraged in countries where catenary runs everywhere. But, it would make a great scene on a layout for the catenary repair car, "A group of workmen on top of the platform removing a pair of tennis shoes dangling from the wires."
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Offline atilla  
#7 Posted : 19 March 2009 16:45:50(UTC)
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atilla


Joined: 13/11/2008(UTC)
Posts: 381
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Ranjit
<br />Shouldn't this topic be moved to "Prototypes"?

Cheers,
Ranjit

I guess that I was conflicted about where to place it. I thought it was of equal interest that it happened on the layout; so, I put it here.
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Offline perz  
#8 Posted : 19 March 2009 20:47:10(UTC)
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perz

Sweden   
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC)
Posts: 2,578
Location: Sweden
Last autumn my daughter was delayed for several hours on a ride with the Swedish "high speed" train X2000 because of such a pantograph accident. So it happens in Sweden too.
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Offline Webmaster  
#9 Posted : 19 March 2009 21:00:59(UTC)
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Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
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And I moved it here... Smile
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
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Offline Ranjit  
#10 Posted : 19 March 2009 21:17:11(UTC)
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Ranjit


Joined: 18/06/2003(UTC)
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Location: Chennai, Tamil Nadu, INDIA
Thank you, Juhan.

Cheers,
Ranjit
Modelling in HO Scale - Era III & IV. K+M Track, Analogue + Digital
_____________________________________________________________________________

#Get Vaccinated
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"If you have a garden and a library, you have everything you need" - Marcus Tullius Cicero
"Nothing is as powerful as an idea whose time has come" - Victor Marie Hugo
"If you can dream it, you can do it" - Walt Disney
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Online mike c  
#11 Posted : 20 March 2009 02:17:35(UTC)
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mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 8,260
Location: Montreal, QC
One note about the BR 103.

For quite a few years, the OBB (Austria) refused to grant permission for DB Loks of this class equipped with the original 'scissors" pantographs to operate on it's network. It was only later once the pantographs had been changed that the DB could operate these Loks on trains to Vienna, Innsbruck and other destinations.

In many such accidents, especially at high speed, the catenary can be damaged for several kilometres, requiring significant repairs before the train (and the line) can be put back into normal service.

Modern pantographs are equipped with devices to minimize sway and optimize contact between the wiper and the catenary wire. They are also designed to absorb most of the damage to protect the line installations as much as possible.

Regards

Mike C
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Online mike c  
#12 Posted : 20 March 2009 02:22:48(UTC)
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mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 8,260
Location: Montreal, QC
To: Attila, Ranjit, Juhan and all:

This thread was moved to the Prototype section. The question was inspired by problems on the layout (model trains). As this topic covers both model RR and prototype, I think that it could be classified as pertinent to model RR.

At what point does a thread that can have model RR implications get moved and what would have to be different for it to qualify to remain in it's original theme?

Regards

Mike C
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Offline atilla  
#13 Posted : 20 March 2009 19:11:32(UTC)
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atilla


Joined: 13/11/2008(UTC)
Posts: 381
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by mike c
<br />To: Attila, Ranjit, Juhan and all:

This thread was moved to the Prototype section. The question was inspired by problems on the layout (model trains). As this topic covers both model RR and prototype, I think that it could be classified as pertinent to model RR.

At what point does a thread that can have model RR implications get moved and what would have to be different for it to qualify to remain in it's original theme?

Regards

Mike C


Mike, it really doesn't matter to me. After I do may daily "job hunt", I go through the forums here. I only care that I can find the thread again. Like I said, orginally, I was conflicted myself about where to put the question; but, it is centering more on prototype behavior than model behavior and does make sense here.

Of course, I could ask the question? Are there similar problems with certain types of pantographs causing catenary problems on the layout?
[}:)][}:)][}:)]biggrin
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Online mike c  
#14 Posted : 21 March 2009 02:11:13(UTC)
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mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 8,260
Location: Montreal, QC
Then, somehow, the magical number 7219 would pop into mind.

With regards to model trains, do you find scissors (diamond) pantos or the single arm ones more reliable in HO, or have you not noticed a difference?

Regards

Mike C
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Offline atilla  
#15 Posted : 21 March 2009 05:02:55(UTC)
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atilla


Joined: 13/11/2008(UTC)
Posts: 381
Location: Richmond, Virginia
I have yet to add my first electric loco. I am waiting with bated breath for a 37226 (apparently I'll be waiting until Q3). The pre-order of the gator started me looking at catenary in general. When I look through the pictures of the more modern trains, they seem to have the single arm design. I a guessing that there is some advantage. Wiki seems to hint that they are more responsive. I can't think of any advantage one way or the other in a scale model environment. One of the reasons I'm asking the questions is to leverage the knowledge of people here.

Is 7219 the replacement part number for a single arm Marklin pantograph? Are they more vulnerable than the double armed ones?
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Offline RayF  
#16 Posted : 21 March 2009 13:53:17(UTC)
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RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,873
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
I have yet to put up my catenary, but I am toying with the idea of using a technique I saw described in a book. The idea is to limit the travel of the pantograph with a fine thread or wire, so that it does not quite reach the actual catenary wire. This looks quite convincing, but protects it from damage.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline atilla  
#17 Posted : 21 March 2009 15:43:29(UTC)
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atilla


Joined: 13/11/2008(UTC)
Posts: 381
Location: Richmond, Virginia
One thread that I was reading suggested that you just put up the masts, without putting up the catenary. Also, there was a suggestion to always leave one section free of catenary as putting a loco on the track with the wire in the way could be difficult.

I love this forum. It is a great way to learn all about the little devil that hides in the details. I'm pretty sure that I am ham fisted enough to make plenty of mistakes on my own; but, there is enough wisdom to save me from a lot of mistakes before I stumble through the process.

I find it particularly interesting that the prototypes have many of the same problems. Of course in the case of the prototypes, there are all kinds of implications that stretch from danger to worker to interrupted passenger/freight service and manufacturing of spare parts.
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