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Offline Artologic  
#1 Posted : 10 September 2023 01:13:38(UTC)
Artologic

Belgium   
Joined: 21/08/2010(UTC)
Posts: 498
Hey Everyone,

I have a bit of a mystery here, my miniclub lollo doesn t want to start from 0, but once running, she runs like a charm. I have checked everything, brushes, cleaned the motor (including the grooves on the collector), checked the contacts, gears don t appear to be binding, but there she is, lights on, but doing nothing. If you nudge her or sometimes wait long enough, she pops into life. After a while she tends to run hot too, hotter then the other locos. Anyone having an idea what could be going on?

Best,
Kristof
Offline parakiet  
#2 Posted : 10 September 2023 09:01:50(UTC)
parakiet

Belgium   
Joined: 20/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 282
Location: Flanders!
cleaning all the gears with SR24 and relubing them?
Offline Artologic  
#3 Posted : 10 September 2023 10:20:22(UTC)
Artologic

Belgium   
Joined: 21/08/2010(UTC)
Posts: 498
Hey Parakeet,

I cleaned them with "wasbenzine", cleaning benzine? And did properly lubricate them.
Yesterday I recalled I forgot to check brush tension, so I ll check that out today and I ll report back.

Best,
Kristof
Offline parakiet  
#4 Posted : 10 September 2023 10:55:19(UTC)
parakiet

Belgium   
Joined: 20/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 282
Location: Flanders!
Those older loco's need some voltage before they start moving. The cleaner they are, the better they run. But it's really not the same as with the bell shape motors.

Did you also clean the wheels?

Offline Artologic  
#5 Posted : 10 September 2023 11:24:37(UTC)
Artologic

Belgium   
Joined: 21/08/2010(UTC)
Posts: 498
That is true, but I have the regular br218, which technically is basically the same, and she needs about 1/2 less to get moving.
The wheels have been cleaned as well. I shouls get one of those locos eith bell shaped armatures then, I still only have classical motorised ones :-).
Offline Toosmall  
#6 Posted : 10 September 2023 11:47:00(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 620
Location: Sydney
Firstly if the loco doesn't move with power applied. Keep power applied as brief as possible so you don't cook the motor (One reason air tools are so good. If they stall, no heat generated. Actually less in the system as a whole because the air compressor simply sees no drop in system air pressure to switch on compressor/s)

It sounds like you have done a full dewaxing (Marklin oiling BS benchmark!).


Apply power to the motor directly via the back ends of the brushes. If it moves (probably takes off & you lose contact), then it is a mechanical issue between the brushes & the wheels (take out the key cog/s so the motor can run freely & the loco will not move).

Slice & divide to narrow down to electrical or mechanical issue.
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Offline Wheelflat  
#7 Posted : 10 September 2023 12:12:18(UTC)
Wheelflat

United Kingdom   
Joined: 26/03/2023(UTC)
Posts: 9
Location: England
With the body removed, get the locomotive into this stall condition, then apply a little bit of pressure to each brush. If the motor starts, you know that the problem is caused by the tension/condition of that brush.


Also check the copper 'whiskers' which connect the board to the motor capacitor.

These motors do get warm, but if you have a multimeter you can measure the current consumption. In my experience, about 0.18 A is a healthy maximum for a 3 pole loco. (The old '70s motors will pull a bit more, but it seems to be ok). A dirty commutator with carbon in the gaps will cause the current consumption to rise rapidly in proportion to the voltage applied, and cause a lot of heat.




thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Wheelflat
Offline Artologic  
#8 Posted : 10 September 2023 17:49:59(UTC)
Artologic

Belgium   
Joined: 21/08/2010(UTC)
Posts: 498
Originally Posted by: Toosmall Go to Quoted Post
Firstly if the loco doesn't move with power applied. Keep power applied as brief as possible so you don't cook the motor (One reason air tools are so good. If they stall, no heat generated. Actually less in the system as a whole because the air compressor simply sees no drop in system air pressure to switch on compressor/s)

It sounds like you have done a full dewaxing (Marklin oiling BS benchmark!).


Apply power to the motor directly via the back ends of the brushes. If it moves (probably takes off & you lose contact), then it is a mechanical issue between the brushes & the wheels (take out the key cog/s so the motor can run freely & the loco will not move).

Slice & divide to narrow down to electrical or mechanical issue.


Hey Toosmall,

Thanks for replying. I made sure to turn the power off quickly, so the motor doesn t burn out. Too bad our trains are electric powered, I sure would love to see one on air pressure!
I did a full maintaince, since I bought a lot of locos that were standing for years (and most of them were glued up with marklin oil), so check on the dewaxing :-).

For now the loco is running like it should (I ll keep my fingers crossed it stays like this), after trying the brush push thing, it was the left one not doing what it should do (stupid of me for missing it). So I lessend the springs a bit and grinded the left brush a bit down (it had managed to wear down into some sort of spike, thus blocking the motor). She is now running around with 3 silver coin coaches, in an attempt to find out if she keeps working and to let the brush wear in correctly.

Originally Posted by: Wheelflat Go to Quoted Post
With the body removed, get the locomotive into this stall condition, then apply a little bit of pressure to each brush. If the motor starts, you know that the problem is caused by the tension/condition of that brush.

Also check the copper 'whiskers' which connect the board to the motor capacitor.

These motors do get warm, but if you have a multimeter you can measure the current consumption. In my experience, about 0.18 A is a healthy maximum for a 3 pole loco. (The old '70s motors will pull a bit more, but it seems to be ok). A dirty commutator with carbon in the gaps will cause the current consumption to rise rapidly in proportion to the voltage applied, and cause a lot of heat.



Hey Wheelflat,

Also thanks for replying! Like I wrote above I did the pressure thing (it really slipped my mind, silly me), thanks for bringing it up. It seems it was a combination of the pressure and how one of the brushes wore itself.

Those whiskers are sometimes a real pain in the ass... But those were thought of, nice catch btw.

They sure get warm, but this one beats all the rest of them with ease, maybe it has a tad more tolerance then the others, who knows? Is there a good way to know a motors age (like how do you know it s a 70 s motor or a more recent one?

Thanks,

Kristof
Offline Zme  
#9 Posted : 11 September 2023 01:38:24(UTC)
Zme

United States   
Joined: 02/10/2013(UTC)
Views messages in topic : 773
Location: West Texas
Hello, hope all is well.

It sure does sound like you have thought about everything to do to get this one working correctly. I have never thought about adjusting the brushes on this type because of the unusual bend on these.

I also have a 218 which is displaying similar issues to the ones you are experiencing. I am really concerned about the heating generated by this one because the extra heat can cause the shell to expand and not stay on the frame.

It was refreshing to read about all the suggestions you received. When I get my locomotive on the table to work on, I will also consider these suggestions.

I believe heating is usually attributed to issues with brush pressure and perhaps excessive oiling. When I have the loco torn down, I usually polish the motor collector (the part when the brushes contact). I know you cleaned the gaps, but did you polish it at all. Sometimes even the big box stores sell 2000 grit materials. I found some here at Lowe’s and the grit is found on a foam backing I cut it into strips which will fit and I just wrap it around the shaft and spin it a bit by hand. This puts a real shine and polish on it very quickly. Just don’t overdo it, be careful.

Have you considered a motor change? A new five pole might be a solution. These are very easy to replace. You might test this solution, if nothing changes, you can return it to the original motor.

I believe the bottom line on these is that there is no guarantee that the same model will be exactly identical in operation. I have a locomotive which dropped to the floor one day. The carpet cushions and It was with the shell off and nothing looked damaged (even the couplers were not broken). Ever since, this locomotive has a louder sound in operation. Obviously, something got knocked. Nothing I have done seems to improve it, but it still works and is smooth in use.

That sure is a nice locomotive, I hope you get it operating the way you want it to. Take good care, hope I helped.

Dwight
Offline Artologic  
#10 Posted : 11 September 2023 15:20:39(UTC)
Artologic

Belgium   
Joined: 21/08/2010(UTC)
Posts: 498
Originally Posted by: Zme Go to Quoted Post
Hello, hope all is well.

It sure does sound like you have thought about everything to do to get this one working correctly. I have never thought about adjusting the brushes on this type because of the unusual bend on these.

I also have a 218 which is displaying similar issues to the ones you are experiencing. I am really concerned about the heating generated by this one because the extra heat can cause the shell to expand and not stay on the frame.

It was refreshing to read about all the suggestions you received. When I get my locomotive on the table to work on, I will also consider these suggestions.

I believe heating is usually attributed to issues with brush pressure and perhaps excessive oiling. When I have the loco torn down, I usually polish the motor collector (the part when the brushes contact). I know you cleaned the gaps, but did you polish it at all. Sometimes even the big box stores sell 2000 grit materials. I found some here at Lowe’s and the grit is found on a foam backing I cut it into strips which will fit and I just wrap it around the shaft and spin it a bit by hand. This puts a real shine and polish on it very quickly. Just don’t overdo it, be careful.

Have you considered a motor change? A new five pole might be a solution. These are very easy to replace. You might test this solution, if nothing changes, you can return it to the original motor.

I believe the bottom line on these is that there is no guarantee that the same model will be exactly identical in operation. I have a locomotive which dropped to the floor one day. The carpet cushions and It was with the shell off and nothing looked damaged (even the couplers were not broken). Ever since, this locomotive has a louder sound in operation. Obviously, something got knocked. Nothing I have done seems to improve it, but it still works and is smooth in use.

That sure is a nice locomotive, I hope you get it operating the way you want it to. Take good care, hope I helped.

Dwight


Hello Dwight,

Normally I check the pressure (it s a big one) and the brush from, but this time I forgot. In my experience it needs quite the heat before that happens, like a burning or close to burning out motor. Mostly opening and in the process stretching makes more of an issue in expanding your shell. I have learned through the time that a bit of insulation tape on the inside of a shell helps quite a lot when it gets to expanded to stick on well.

If you need any help by the time, just give a shout out, me and probably some more people will try to help you the best I/ we can. Here I clean the collectors and grooves too, it s really important to do so. I mostly put it in cleaning benzine, let it run for a while, until to collector is clean, take out the brushes, clean those to with washing benzine, place them back and let everything dry very well, after which it gets lubricated slightly. What happens is that the brushes do wear in to the collector, but sometimes due to the form of the little "arm" they are on, get a bit of pressure up or downwards, after which the wear out a bit above or under the collector. This sometimes interfears with starting or changing directions, I think due to uneven pressure or the brush slightly hitting/ getting stuck in the armature grooves. Bit hard to explain, but I hope you understand what I m trying to say?

I did, but I thought the motor wasn t produced anymore? I must admit when she runs, it doesn t really bother me, she isn t very loud (but honestly I don t really care about the noise in general), and she tends to run well, even at slower speeds. But if the motor is still out there, I would try it, I have some other locos waiting for the same conversion.

Which model loco are you talking about? I guess you already fully disassembled it after the fall to check everything? You made me cursious hahaha.

Everyone has been of help, so thank you very much. I just hope she keeps running (she did yesterday and today, so fingers crossed), and if she does, issue finally solved.

Kristof

thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Artologic
Zme
Offline Zme  
#11 Posted : 11 September 2023 17:25:24(UTC)
Zme

United States   
Joined: 02/10/2013(UTC)
Views messages in topic : 773
Location: West Texas
Hello, hope all is well.

I believe some of the 903 motors are still out there, but the problem is, they are no longer as cheap as they were. Auction websites list them from time to time. Just be watchful, eventually one will show up. In the meantime you can continue working with your locomotive.

Put a soft rug under your work area, you never know when you might have an accident. The problem with this is, if a small part drops to a big fluffy rug, you might have a time finding it. The loco was an 88111, and I still have it. I took it apart, cleaned and reassembled it, it works, but not like previously.

I know I get a good education from fellow members of this great forum. Way back when, we were literally on our own. The only reference available was the oil instruction insert. Thanks to everyone here, I know much more and appreciate the z scale hobby more than ever.

I hope everything works out, a V160 is a great one.

Take good care.

Dwight


Offline Poor Skeleton  
#12 Posted : 11 September 2023 22:23:34(UTC)
Poor Skeleton

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/10/2015(UTC)
Posts: 553
Location: England, Cambridge
Originally Posted by: Artologic Go to Quoted Post
Hey Everyone,

I have a bit of a mystery here, my miniclub lollo doesn t want to start from 0, but once running, she runs like a charm. I have checked everything, brushes, cleaned the motor (including the grooves on the collector), checked the contacts, gears don t appear to be binding, but there she is, lights on, but doing nothing. If you nudge her or sometimes wait long enough, she pops into life. After a while she tends to run hot too, hotter then the other locos. Anyone having an idea what could be going on?

Best,
Kristof


I have had exactly this problem with an old 8878. In the end, I concluded (perhaps incorrectly) that the 3 pole motor had lost some of its magnetism. I know this can happen with some motors though I don't know for sure that these motors are affected. In the end I substituted for a new 5 pole motor although this did require a small amount of machining of the chassis.

Having said this, I have noticed that over tightening the bogie and chassis screws can cause some things to "stick" with this effect, so that might be something to check.

Cheers


Chris

thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Poor Skeleton
Zme
Offline Zme  
#13 Posted : 12 September 2023 06:42:36(UTC)
Zme

United States   
Joined: 02/10/2013(UTC)
Views messages in topic : 773
Location: West Texas
Hello, hope all is well

I have heard reducing the pressure on the screws which fasten the circuit board helps. But I cannot tell you this will make a difference.

Back the screws a quarter turn and see if it helps.

It’s and easy try anyway, screw pressure can always be returned to what they were.

Take good care.

Dwight
Offline Artologic  
#14 Posted : 12 September 2023 11:16:10(UTC)
Artologic

Belgium   
Joined: 21/08/2010(UTC)
Posts: 498
Originally Posted by: Zme Go to Quoted Post
Hello, hope all is well.

I believe some of the 903 motors are still out there, but the problem is, they are no longer as cheap as they were. Auction websites list them from time to time. Just be watchful, eventually one will show up. In the meantime you can continue working with your locomotive.

Put a soft rug under your work area, you never know when you might have an accident. The problem with this is, if a small part drops to a big fluffy rug, you might have a time finding it. The loco was an 88111, and I still have it. I took it apart, cleaned and reassembled it, it works, but not like previously.

I know I get a good education from fellow members of this great forum. Way back when, we were literally on our own. The only reference available was the oil instruction insert. Thanks to everyone here, I know much more and appreciate the z scale hobby more than ever.

I hope everything works out, a V160 is a great one.

I have heard reducing the pressure on the screws which fasten the circuit board helps. But I cannot tell you this will make a difference.

Back the screws a quarter turn and see if it helps.

It’s and easy try anyway, screw pressure can always be returned to what they were.

Take good care.

Dwight


Hello Dwight,

She appears to be a great runner, so I won t need to hurry to get one. She runs better then her sister too, and is still starting fine!

I have soft flooring where I work, it has the advantage of stuff not breaking, but also has the advantage of having no hair where you can loose tiny parts :-). Thanks for the tip! I have the 8811 and she is noisy, but mine has a 3 pole motor, yours has a 5 pole. What kind of louder new noise does she make? This should be solvable it seems.

Yes I have the same experience, knowledge here is really good and people don t mind sharing, making it a great community, I wouldn t be doing z "on my own"...

I love the lollo, she is a v160, but different, making it an excellent excuse for getting one :-).

In my experience this does nothing, mostly because the screw is next to the drivetrain. It does make it possible to have a bad circuit due to the screw being too loose, but that seems like a smaller chance.

Take good care too!

Originally Posted by: Poor Skeleton Go to Quoted Post


I have had exactly this problem with an old 8878. In the end, I concluded (perhaps incorrectly) that the 3 pole motor had lost some of its magnetism. I know this can happen with some motors though I don't know for sure that these motors are affected. In the end I substituted for a new 5 pole motor although this did require a small amount of machining of the chassis.

Having said this, I have noticed that over tightening the bogie and chassis screws can cause some things to "stick" with this effect, so that might be something to check.

Cheers

Chris



Hey Chris,

I never experienced the loss of magnetism, but it s easy to diagnose, if the loco doesn t start, but does pull a train, then it won t be the magnet, but something like the brushes or an different motor related issue. Do you have pictures of what you machined away, I m curious what has to be done and I m not really fond of machining parts away, partly due to the lack of experience. The bogie screw I never thought of, the one for the chassis screws I already know, thanks for the tip. Most of the time I turn until they won t go anymore, but with a loose hand, so it s not tight.

Best
Kristof
Offline JohnjeanB  
#15 Posted : 12 September 2023 15:20:27(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,168
Location: Paris, France
Originally Posted by: Artologic Go to Quoted Post
Hey Everyone,

I have a bit of a mystery here, my miniclub lollo doesn t want to start from 0, but once running, she runs like a charm. I have checked everything, brushes, cleaned the motor (including the grooves on the collector), checked the contacts, gears don t appear to be binding, but there she is, lights on, but doing nothing. If you nudge her or sometimes wait long enough, she pops into life. After a while she tends to run hot too, hotter then the other locos. Anyone having an idea what could be going on?

Best,
Kristof

Hi Kristoff
This happened to me a few times when I was in N gauge with small motors. The root cause is when of the windings of the motor has over-heated (is in short circuit) This result in sparks on the collector drum. Once the motor is started it works OK but often it refuses to start, depending on the rotor's position.
Alas, ,the motor needs replacing in such a case.
Cheers
Jean

Offline Poor Skeleton  
#16 Posted : 12 September 2023 21:00:04(UTC)
Poor Skeleton

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/10/2015(UTC)
Posts: 553
Location: England, Cambridge
Originally Posted by: Artologic Go to Quoted Post


I never experienced the loss of magnetism, but it s easy to diagnose, if the loco doesn t start, but does pull a train, then it won t be the magnet, but something like the brushes or an different motor related issue. Do you have pictures of what you machined away, I m curious what has to be done and I m not really fond of machining parts away, partly due to the lack of experience. The bogie screw I never thought of, the one for the chassis screws I already know, thanks for the tip. Most of the time I turn until they won t go anymore, but with a loose hand, so it s not tight.

Best
Kristof


There's some information about the modification in this thread : https://www.marklin-user...-for-BR216--Marklin-8875

and here's a picture :
UserPostedImage

A colleague is an experienced model engineer and it took him not time to machine off the excess metal, but i don't think I'd like to attempt it myself!

Slackening off the bogie screw a bit can make a huge difference - one of my 88787s really benefitted from it!

Cheers


Chris


thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Poor Skeleton
Offline Artologic  
#17 Posted : 16 September 2023 20:59:26(UTC)
Artologic

Belgium   
Joined: 21/08/2010(UTC)
Posts: 498
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post

Hi Kristoff
This happened to me a few times when I was in N gauge with small motors. The root cause is when of the windings of the motor has over-heated (is in short circuit) This result in sparks on the collector drum. Once the motor is started it works OK but often it refuses to start, depending on the rotor's position.
Alas, ,the motor needs replacing in such a case.
Cheers
Jean


Hi Jean,

This fenomena I know too, but the motor doesn t have a bad winding, since it was in all kind of starting positions (all the poles did it), so luckily I don t need to replace the motor. It was just one of the brushes that had a bad shape and pressed to high & hard on the motor. She runs fine not (woohoow).

Thanks for thinking with me!

Best,
Kristof

Originally Posted by: Poor Skeleton Go to Quoted Post

There's some information about the modification in this thread : https://www.marklin-user...-for-BR216--Marklin-8875

and here's a picture :
UserPostedImage

A colleague is an experienced model engineer and it took him not time to machine off the excess metal, but i don't think I'd like to attempt it myself!

Slackening off the bogie screw a bit can make a huge difference - one of my 88787s really benefitted from it!

Cheers

Chris


Thanks for the pictures, although, the 8875 is slightly different and an older model. I m not able to take the metal away either and I m honestly kind of afraid to do it.
I ll keep the bogie screw in mind, that one is easy and if it works so good, it for sure should be used, thanks!

Best,
Kristof
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