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I_love_Marklin_37538		#1 Posted : 08 March 2009 01:04:45(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 19/09/2008(UTC) Posts: 957 Location: ,		Ok I am wondering on some Marklin steam engines some of them have either a Witte or Wagner smoke deflector and by the way what does Witte or Wagner mean?
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Bigdaddynz		#2 Posted : 08 March 2009 01:20:19(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC) Posts: 18,778 Location: New Zealand		Alex, they aren't Marklin smoke deflectors as such, the names are for the types of deflectors used on the prototypes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoke_deflectors http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Paul_Wagner
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steventrain		#3 Posted : 08 March 2009 10:48:08(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC) Posts: 31,705 Location: United Kingdom		'The DB replaced the smoke deflectors by "Witte" smoke deflectors and moved the pump to the center of the locomotive. From 1950 the DB equiped five locomotives BR 01, the 01 042, 046, 112, 154 and 192 with different heating installations and different smoke boxes.' - dbtrains. See link http://www.dbtrains.com/...ocomotives/epochIII/BR01
		Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
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H0		#4 Posted : 08 March 2009 11:49:07(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,467 Location: DE-NW		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by I_love_Marklin_37538 <br />I am wondering on some Marklin steam engines some of them have either a Witte or Wagner smoke deflector and by the way what does Witte or Wagner mean? Mr. Wagner was the the head of the design department in the design office of the Reichbahn and Mr. Witte was his assistant and later his successor. I think the smaller Witte deflectors look better. And AFAIK they are even more efficient.
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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I_love_Marklin_37538		#5 Posted : 08 March 2009 22:02:16(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 19/09/2008(UTC) Posts: 957 Location: ,		I like the Wagner Deflectors overall,I think it gave the 01 and 03 a bit character
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steamfriend		#6 Posted : 09 March 2009 02:49:43(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 19/11/2002(UTC) Posts: 378 Location: Leuven, Belgiium		Hi, It is all a matter of taste, I believe. The Wagners look more mature, give the loc a real solid image. I particularly like it on the BR01. See pic below which is the old 3047 with Wagners (and much more improved details) The Witte's are more elegant, though. I never saw a scientific report on a comparison between the effectiveness between both... In any case, Witte is more economical on steel Bob
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TimR		#7 Posted : 09 March 2009 06:41:22(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/08/2007(UTC) Posts: 1,752 Location: Jakarta		Just of interest, would a witte or wagner deflectors designed for a particular model can be switchable? I mean can a model with witte deflector for example, be fitted with wagner? or vice versa? (not that I want to do it anyway as it actually gives an excuse to buy more models )
		Now collecting C-Sine models.
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TimR		#8 Posted : 10 March 2009 02:29:56(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/08/2007(UTC) Posts: 1,752 Location: Jakarta		Thanks for the info, Lutz. Much appreciated! This might make swappable conversions possible, especially for the "standard" loks.
		Now collecting C-Sine models.
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intruder		#9 Posted : 10 March 2009 19:54:15(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/08/2006(UTC) Posts: 5,382 Location: Akershus, Norway		Two examples of the small and the big smoke deflectors, and, as Lutz says, the closed fron skirt: With Witte smoke deflectors With Wagner smoke deflector and closed front skirt.
		Best regards Svein, Norway grumpy old sod
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TTRExpress		#10 Posted : 10 March 2009 20:17:16(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 06/04/2006(UTC) Posts: 655		They are both types of windleitbleche (smoke deflectors). The larger "full" skirted model is the Wagner type (named after the "inventor" of them) and the more streamlined model is the Witte (again named after the "inventor" of them). Witte was a junior engineer under Wagner and Wagner as long as he was around would not agree to the change in deflectors for steam loks. Once Wagner was "retired" the changes to the Witte tyoe deflectors were made! If you are modeling Epoch II and early Epoch III then stick with the Wagner. Late Epoch III onwards you can use the Witte and still use the Wagner!
		Regards (a Scot in Wisconsin), Maurice [ETE, TTRCA, IG-TRIX Express, Maerklin-Insider & TRIX Profi-Club]
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mmrcnzjohn		#11 Posted : 11 March 2009 08:59:08(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 558 Location: ,		Hi Lutz, I never knew that the class 18 had wagner deflectors. do ou have a pic of it? Cheers John
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Bigdaddynz		#12 Posted : 11 March 2009 10:22:08(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC) Posts: 18,778 Location: New Zealand		I think Lutz is referring to a BR01 road number, as in BR01 18, rather than a BR18.
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kimballthurlow		#13 Posted : 11 March 2009 10:51:04(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC) Posts: 6,769 Location: Brisbane, Australia		Thanks everyone, and Svein for the pictures. I was unaware of the subtle differences in the design of the front end of some steamers like the BR 50. regards Kimball
		HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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kimballthurlow		#14 Posted : 11 March 2009 13:14:22(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC) Posts: 6,769 Location: Brisbane, Australia		Both types of smoke deflectors were also used in other countries. Victorian Railways in Australia used Wagner type on a 4-6-0 passenger class from about 1935. British Railways used both Witte type (on Flying Scotsman classes like A3), and Wagner type (on Brittania and A1 classes), but only from the early 1950's. regards Kimball
		HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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RayF		#15 Posted : 11 March 2009 14:05:44(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC) Posts: 15,871 Location: Gibraltar, Europe		In general, I like the look of the Witte deflectors more, but I love the way the little Br24 seems to peep out from behind it's huge Wagner deflectors!
		Ray Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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TTRExpress		#16 Posted : 11 March 2009 16:01:56(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 06/04/2006(UTC) Posts: 655		John, The BR 18 has "Wagner" type deflectors, not what one would classify as the large ones on the BR 01 etc. They are definately not Witte!
		Regards (a Scot in Wisconsin), Maurice [ETE, TTRCA, IG-TRIX Express, Maerklin-Insider & TRIX Profi-Club]
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kimballthurlow		#17 Posted : 17 March 2009 01:56:29(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC) Posts: 6,769 Location: Brisbane, Australia		I have just made a recall (funny how ideas pop up) that on the A3 class British Railways 4-6-2, the Witte style deflectors were called "elephant ears" by the loco men and general public. I remembered this while perusing a picture of Märklin's new Class 39 Insider model. regards Kimball
		HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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DasBert33		#18 Posted : 17 March 2009 22:47:55(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 21/01/2004(UTC) Posts: 1,277		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Hemmerich <br />The conversion to Witte deflectors actually started around 1950 within the area of the DB.... What about kriegsloks? Like the BR42, BR52 or fiction BR53. They already seem to have Witte smoke deflectors in Era 2 (some of them). Or are those of yet another type? Bert
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intruder		#19 Posted : 18 March 2009 00:22:03(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/08/2006(UTC) Posts: 5,382 Location: Akershus, Norway		Bert, I think some of them had a simpler type of Witte deflectors. They were more like a bent steel plate, without the reinforcement along the edge.
		Best regards Svein, Norway grumpy old sod
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steamfriend		#20 Posted : 24 March 2009 02:09:49(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 19/11/2002(UTC) Posts: 378 Location: Leuven, Belgiium		Code: Bert, I think some of them had a simpler type of Witte deflectors. They were more like a bent steel plate, without the reinforcement along the edge. The reason is quite obvious : everything had to be trimmed down to the absolute minimum. Witte's used also less steel than Wagners... Less cabin windows, less domes, .... Bob
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