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Defected retrofit motor 60943?
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Offline einotuominen  
#1 Posted : 18 July 2023 20:34:49(UTC)
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einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 383
Location: Kaarina
Hi,

Just installed a 60943 onto a V60 that I’m converting. For some reason the armature will not rotate more than a slight. Strong electrical noise can be heard.

I’m using mSD3 decoder and I hooked it to another DC motor and it works fine. Sounds also work, so decoder is ok. Loco mechanics also work like magic when motor is off.

After experimenting with another armature and even taking the motor off the gearbox, ”to run loose”, it won’t work. I took of the magnet, armature and motorshield in one piece to see if the armature rotates when it’s not connected to the gearbox, but no luck.

How can such a simple device be broken? Confused

Some smoke even came out of the motor, but I’m not sure where exactly.

Has anyone come across this before?

I’ve notified the seller about the issue. Let’s see if I can get a new one.

-Eino
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Offline einotuominen  
#2 Posted : 18 July 2023 22:13:52(UTC)
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einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 383
Location: Kaarina
Ok, so I figured out what is wrong. The motorshield is a bit bent, also the two sides of the magnet are a bit loose from one another, but I’m sure the bent shield is causing traction.

I loosened the screws alot and the motor started running. I loosened so much that other issues started happening.

But it is clear that the motor shield is defected. It can be seem with bare eye.

Is it common for the 60943 magnet to be a bit wobbly?

-Eino
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Offline mvd71  
#3 Posted : 19 July 2023 08:12:29(UTC)
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mvd71

New Zealand   
Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,733
Location: Auckland,
I’ve not had that problem before. I have had two kits with bent armatures from new, so I am not surprised to hear about what you have found
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Offline einotuominen  
#4 Posted : 19 July 2023 09:41:28(UTC)
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einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 383
Location: Kaarina
So I filed the axel hole in the shield a bit larger in diameter and the motor now works. Only the noise is like from a coffee grinder, so it is not a viable solution. Hopefully I get a new product from the seller.

-Eino
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Offline marklinist5999  
#5 Posted : 19 July 2023 14:05:52(UTC)
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marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 3,150
Location: Michigan, Troy
Eino, mine has sounded this way a bit from new. This model's ffirst axle drive gear off of the motor shaft gear is such that it even leaves gear marks on the inner wheel. If it isn't running smoothly, that's likely an issue with the retrofit armatur carrier not fitting the frame well. There were two differerent sizes/shapes.
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Offline einotuominen  
#6 Posted : 19 July 2023 15:05:41(UTC)
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einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 383
Location: Kaarina
Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
Eino, mine has sounded this way a bit from new. This model's ffirst axle drive gear off of the motor shaft gear is such that it even leaves gear marks on the inner wheel. If it isn't running smoothly, that's likely an issue with the retrofit armatur carrier not fitting the frame well. There were two differerent sizes/shapes.


This is most likely the case here…

I wonder if there’s a Dremel solution…

-Eino
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Offline bph  
#7 Posted : 19 July 2023 19:56:27(UTC)
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bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 997
Something is not right, it should not be required to modify the motor shield. And it should not smoke.
What is the V60 product number?
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Offline marklinist5999  
#8 Posted : 19 July 2023 19:57:53(UTC)
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marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 3,150
Location: Michigan, Troy
I have seen frames ground out to make extra room for the motor blocks. I don't recal the threads on here though. I think you need a milling bit. A Dremel might be strong enough. I know the Maxxon is for sure.
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Offline franciscohg  
#9 Posted : 19 July 2023 21:06:45(UTC)
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franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,274
Location: Patagonia
Hello, the magnet should not be wobbly.
it happened to me sometimes that the screws to fit the shield are too long and when fully tightened it presses against the gear causing the motor not to run, was solved just by cutting a little the screws, may worth a try.
it is a good habit to see if the running gear is ok to make everything turn without motor coals installed before to go further in the conversion.
regards
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
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Offline einotuominen  
#10 Posted : 19 July 2023 22:06:24(UTC)
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einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 383
Location: Kaarina
Originally Posted by: bph Go to Quoted Post
Something is not right, it should not be required to modify the motor shield. And it should not smoke.
What is the V60 product number?


The model is 3065.
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Offline bph  
#11 Posted : 19 July 2023 23:27:48(UTC)
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bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 997
Originally Posted by: einotuominen Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: bph Go to Quoted Post
Something is not right, it should not be required to modify the motor shield. And it should not smoke.
What is the V60 product number?


The model is 3065.

that model was produced over many years so there might be some variations....?

if it helps here are pictures of my 3148. Had no issues with that locomotive and the 60943. Was the 60943 set brand new?
501C2667s.jpg
501C2672s.jpg
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Offline DB Fan  
#12 Posted : 20 July 2023 03:05:18(UTC)
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DB Fan

United States   
Joined: 01/03/2016(UTC)
Posts: 265
Location: Colorado
Hello
I checked my new 60943 and looked at the magnet and it has only a little bit of play what I have noticed before on other kits as well. As mentioned before the most likely culprit is the screws. You shouldn’t have to modify the shield. The frame in some cases has to be modified to make space for the magnet. Are you sure you have the correct kit? Is the kit new and unopened? If the kit was sold as opened it could have the incorrect 5 pole motor/anker with it that has a longer axle on it and that could be then a problem as well when you install the shield. Hope this helps.

Robert
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Offline einotuominen  
#13 Posted : 20 July 2023 14:11:03(UTC)
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einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 383
Location: Kaarina
Originally Posted by: bph Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: einotuominen Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: bph Go to Quoted Post
Something is not right, it should not be required to modify the motor shield. And it should not smoke.
What is the V60 product number?


The model is 3065.

that model was produced over many years so there might be some variations....?

if it helps here are pictures of my 3148. Had no issues with that locomotive and the 60943. Was the 60943 set brand new?
501C2667s.jpg
501C2672s.jpg


Thanks, I'll open my loco up and see if there is anything different in the frame... The magnet feels to fit in good though.

Also the product was a new one in unopened box.

I think I will try to add washer plates between the magnet and motor shield next...

-Eino
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Offline franciscohg  
#14 Posted : 20 July 2023 16:04:57(UTC)
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franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,274
Location: Patagonia
Mmmm, Washers between shield and magnet could lead to rotor malfunction.
Try to assemble the motor, no coals, no screws and check if everything moves freely
Regards
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
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Offline einotuominen  
#15 Posted : 20 July 2023 16:52:22(UTC)
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einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 383
Location: Kaarina
Originally Posted by: franciscohg Go to Quoted Post
Mmmm, Washers between shield and magnet could lead to rotor malfunction.
Try to assemble the motor, no coals, no screws and check if everything moves freely
Regards


I’ve assembled the motor without the motorshield and can manualy rotate the armature and the loco wheels will turn from it.

Seller is sending me a new motorshield.

-Eino
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Offline einotuominen  
#16 Posted : 21 July 2023 09:57:14(UTC)
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einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 383
Location: Kaarina
Here's a video of releated components:


I have two of these 60943 motors as the other one is going into an F7 sometime next week, but both seem quite identical... Unfortunately I don't have other motors available to see if they have such a gap in the armature housing inside the magnet.

-Eino
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Offline H0  
#17 Posted : 21 July 2023 10:05:20(UTC)
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H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,267
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: einotuominen Go to Quoted Post
Unfortunately I don't have other motors available to see if they have such a gap in the armature housing inside the magnet.
The "magnet" consists of two large iron parts held together by a strong neodym magnet. Same for 60941 and 60944.

Found this on the web: "Locos that require some milling or other adaptation are: 3000, 3013, 3016, 3029, 3030, 3170, 2670, 2870, 3064, 3065, 3131, 3141, 3149, 3087, 3090."
Source:
https://www.bogobit.de/decoder/dectype.html#60903

In case of the 3000 loco, the screws are too long. It seems the 3065 loco has the same issue.

Here is a report about a V 60 conversion:
http://www.persmodelrailroad.net/cv2890.html

Märklin know there is a problem with loco 3065. See page 21 in this manual:
https://static.maerklin....870affb6101434542496.pdf
It is a pity this warning is not included in the 60943 manual.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline einotuominen  
#18 Posted : 21 July 2023 11:26:08(UTC)
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einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 383
Location: Kaarina
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: einotuominen Go to Quoted Post
Unfortunately I don't have other motors available to see if they have such a gap in the armature housing inside the magnet.
The "magnet" consists of two large iron parts held together by a strong neodym magnet. Same for 60941 and 60944.

In case of the 3000 loco, the screws are too long. It seems the 3065 loco has the same issue.

Here is a report about a V 60 conversion:
http://www.persmodelrailroad.net/cv2890.html



Well there we have it!

I installed a washer under the bottom left screw like in that report and everything works now. The grinding sound is a bit loud still though... I wonder if there's something to be done to that...

Here's a video:

https://youtube.com/shorts/fZo9hCsFqro

Thanks again guys, this has been a great thread!

-Eino
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Offline marklinist5999  
#19 Posted : 21 July 2023 15:21:09(UTC)
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marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 3,150
Location: Michigan, Troy
So glad you fixed it!
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#20 Posted : 21 July 2023 17:08:29(UTC)
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kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,109
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: einotuominen Go to Quoted Post

The grinding sound is a bit loud still though... I wonder if there's something to be done to that...


Try slackening the screws on the motorshield, and with the brushes removed, push the wheels with your fingers while adjusting the motorshield on the screws. Some people report that attempting to align the motor bearings by doing this improves running. Note you may need to be an octopus to turn the wheels while moving the motorshield then holding everything in place while tightening the screws.
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