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Offline Mark5  
#1 Posted : 01 March 2023 19:04:38(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,420
Location: Montreal, Canada
Hello all,

I have found some rather interesting reading on tapatalk about the implementation of the Europ livery and the agreements between countries. I am keen on trying to have a clear image and quick mental tools to identifying the approximate dates of cars by their livery, number, logos, paint etc.

So much could be said and reposted and much has been said already, but a few images and some clearer points in an outline may be helpful.

I want to start by asking when the livery in the image attached would have been current.
Seems the "Europ" designation was phased out by the end of era III, but was that just the square logo with the transport company underneath. (DB, FS, NS, SNCF, DR) .... or also text like this.
(I was surprised to see that DR and many other countries also used this)


Screen Shot 2023-03-01 at 12.53.06 PM.png
DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#2 Posted : 02 March 2023 07:35:46(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,666
Location: Hybrid Home
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post

I want to start by asking when the livery in the image attached would have been current.
Seems the "Europ" designation was phased out by the end of era III, but was that just the square logo with the transport company underneath. (DB, FS, NS, SNCF, DR) .... or also text like this.
(I was surprised to see that DR and many other countries also used this)


DR participated in RIV, but not in EUROP:

RIV
Abbreviation for Italian "Regulamento Internazionale Veicoli", agreement on the reciprocal use of freight cars in international traffic of 01/01/1922; also applies to loading equipment, containers and pallets; currently 32 railroads in Europe and the Middle East are members of the RIV.

EUROP - repealed -
"Communauté européenne des wagons", European freight car community. Agreement concluded on the basis of the RIV on the joint, permissive use of covered and open freight cars; only standardized UIC cars (European standard cars, address "Europ") were included in the joint pool; the agreement concluded in 1951 between DB and SNCF was joined in 1953 by SNCB, DSB, FS, CFL, NS, OBB and SBB; bodies: EUROP Committee, EUROP Wagon Office (headquarters: Berne). The corresponding "Agreement on the Community Use of Freight Wagons freight wagons" was concluded on 02/03/1953. The wagons run freely on the member railroads, making their use considerably more economical.

Source: https://www-docs.b-tu.de...ublic/0-2BegriffeAbk.pdf

The EUROP wagon pool was dissolved at the end of 2002.

Source: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIV-EUROP
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#3 Posted : 02 March 2023 07:49:08(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,666
Location: Hybrid Home
Some more related pictured (German) freight car stencil explanations:

https://www.fremo-net.eu/index.php?id=402

http://www.dybas.de/dybas/index/a/ansch_gw.html



Regarding freight car paint schemes, RAL 8012 red-brown was the basic color of DB freight cars until 1996.

Source: https://de.wikipedia.org...n_Reichsbahn_(nach_1945)
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Offline Mark5  
#4 Posted : 02 March 2023 21:43:10(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,420
Location: Montreal, Canada
Thank you for the correction AK. I thought I saw a DR-Europ livery when looking up a number of images and was bewildered (thought perhaps for a short time during transition) but I must have conflated it with the two images in the tapatalk Railways of Germany post (link below). One was the DR in the US-Brit-Zone which surprised me, again must have been during or prior to the change over.

As for the image of the livery I posted above (RIV-Europ/87 SNCF) is it possible to have pre-existed 1965?
What time frame would a strictly text based Europ designation/livery have fallen under then?
After posting I searched further and found the text-only livery with Europ seems to have continued to be used much later than 1965, but how about before then?

The gentlemen in this informative and interesting post indicate the the Europ livery (assuming its the box-type Europ livery only as in my image below) would not have existed past 1965 due to the introduction of the UIC standard. But that doesn't quite fit if the Europ pool continued decades further as you indicate. So guessing it only the box-type livery.
https://www.tapatalk.com...topic.php?p=59063#p59063

Screen Shot 2023-03-02 at 3.19.19 PM.png

What I am excited about is making mixed prototypically correct Era III consists with designations from various state railways of the Europ group, or other groups. Carrying goods over borders after the war must have lots of interesting stories that led to unity in Europe, such as the meeting with Adenaur and Mendes, then others
https://en.wikipedia.org...i/Treaty_of_Paris_(1951)

Still trying to get my head around this. The complex diagram in the Treaty of Paris wikipedia entry is interesting.
Need to find more about the specific agreement between DB and SNCF that later got other nations onboard.
This quote below from the RoG post is something worth exploring.
(All this just to run somewhat "correct" model trains. Laugh )
Quote:
From now on, a 'DB-EUROP' wagon unloaded at Paris-La Chapelle can be returned with a new load to Rotterdam or Milan, thus "the wagons of the EUROP pool somehow lose their nationality, but only from the point of view of their use "explains the head of the movement-goods division at SNCF in the RGCF (April 1954).
DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
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Offline Mark5  
#5 Posted : 02 March 2023 21:50:24(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,420
Location: Montreal, Canada
Reading the RIV-Europ wikipedia article.
I guess I am to count on any 12 digit number is after 1965 and these are the UIC numbers.
https://de.wikipedia.org..._offener_Gueterwagen.tif

So the livery/designation ...
SNCF 508 7256-8
...eight digits is from ....?
DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
Offline H0  
#6 Posted : 02 March 2023 22:03:09(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post
So the livery/designation ...
SNCF 508 7256-8
...eight digits is from ....?
I see 12 digits. Clearly UIC standard after 1965. You must include "01 87".
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#7 Posted : 03 March 2023 10:16:36(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,666
Location: Hybrid Home
Relying on the FREMO article:

- post #1 stencil was applied after 01/07/1964 and before 01/01/1969.

- post #4 stencil was valid from 01/06/1951 until 06/02/1960.

https://www.fremo-net.eu/index.php?id=402
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Offline kimballthurlow  
#8 Posted : 03 March 2023 10:23:26(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,653
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hello Mark,

For a full historical analysis of this interesting subject in the years 1920 to 1960, I wrote this topic in 2016.
There are also many relevant comments within the topic from user.net members.
https://www.marklin-users.net/forum/posts/t34086-Lettering-on-wagons---ownership---1920-to-1960

Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#9 Posted : 03 March 2023 12:57:54(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post
Relying on the FREMO article:

- post #1 stencil was applied after 01/07/1964 and before 01/01/1969.

- post #4 stencil was valid from 01/06/1951 until 06/02/1960.

https://www.fremo-net.eu/index.php?id=402


Not only that, but don't forget that many marks will be on wagons for quite some time after changeover, possibly until the next maintenance is due on the wagon, before the marks get changed.

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Offline Alsterstreek  
#10 Posted : 03 March 2023 15:23:28(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,666
Location: Hybrid Home
I never tire of quoting the FREMO article:

"On June 1, 1964 - i.e., in the middle of Era 3 b (!) - the designation scheme for freight cars that is still in use today finally came into effect. In addition to the internationally valid class and code letters, it also provided for coding of the car type in the car number. The dot placed in front of the generic designation stated that these wagons were already labeled according to the now valid scheme. To the right of the new class number, the old, nationally valid class designation was still used for a transitional period.

The scheduled re-designation had to be completed on the UIC member railroads by December 31, 1968 - at least for all wagons that could be used internationally. It can be assumed that throughout the 1960s, no wagons came out of a revision without being re-designated, apart from wagons for purely domestic traffic or wagons that were due for retirement anyway.


The idea held by many model railroaders that the majority of the freight car fleet in the mid-1960s was still labeled as it was in the 1950s, and that the UIC designations only suddenly appeared shortly before 1970, can be safely thrown overboard. In fact, practically all of the cars in the active freight car fleet had been redesignated by 1969."

https://www.fremo-net.eu/index.php?id=402
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Offline H0  
#11 Posted : 03 March 2023 16:06:50(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
I assume that marking that had to be there by end of 1968 were there on that date, at least on cars going abroad.
Markings that were made obsolete by the new marks could still be around for years to come.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline mike c  
#12 Posted : 07 March 2023 19:22:51(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
Most countries began applying the UIC numbers as of 1965, but the process took a few years as coaches and cars would have the markings updated at scheduled maintenance. Some had received the maintenance immediately prior to the change and therefore continued to bear the old markings a while longer.

Regards

Mike C
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Offline Mark5  
#13 Posted : 07 March 2023 22:16:29(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,420
Location: Montreal, Canada
So if modelling 1965 until 1968/9, having a mixed consist of cars with the new 12-digit markings and some cars with the old Europ "square" would not be totally unreasonable. This creates a kind of era overlap. One could almost say there is a Era IIIa from the postwar until 1955, then Era IIIb from 1955 until 1964/5 and then Era IIIc from 1965 until 1968/9 (January 1st). Or one could start an Era IVa modelling period from 1965 to 1968. (Era IIIc/IVa) (No doubt this has been said somewhere before...?)

If I think of style, politics, fashion and architecture, those three Era III periods a,b,c are quite distinct as so much rapid change culturally and economically occurred during that time. There is a wealth of "design" material to work from, for the amateur historian, which is what in some ways, most of us really are. Hey, history is a great part of the hobby, imho.
Wink

I still want to be able to memorize the markings from the various tables to give as close a guesstimate as possible to where cars should fit, aside from the obvious changes in car designs and engineering. In the beginning of my collecting phase I bought a bunch of material that I thought might fit in the era, when it really wasn't quite right. Both from Era II and IV.

Thanks all for the keeping me in the learning curve.



DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
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