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Offline ocram63_uk  
#1 Posted : 28 January 2023 19:05:40(UTC)
ocram63_uk

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: England, Suffolk
Good evening, afternoon, day folks!!
I've had this decoder for some time on my Marklin 3001 engine which I retrofitted with motor kit 60943
It has always worked properly.

I have oredered a LED kit from a Spanish reseller on ebay and am having a few problems. The reseller is very helpful and full of advice, so am not really criticizing him.

1) lights can't be switched off. Possible with analague light bulbs
2) direction light change:
Forward direction: white on the front and red at the back.
Reverse direction: red on both sides

This wouldn't be a huge problem if I could only manage to switch the lights off :-)
Maybe

According to the seller's instructions my decoder is of the 'old' type because I have a brown cable, instead of a white one, and I have to connect it differently to the LEDs.

Another funny thing is that if I reprogram CV05, max speed, on the programming track the new setting kicks in only if I press the light button.
Don't recall if this was happening before thogugh

Apart writing the seller, have you guys got any ideas?
Thank you
Marco
Offline kiwiAlan  
#2 Posted : 28 January 2023 20:58:34(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,121
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: ocram63_uk Go to Quoted Post
Good evening, afternoon, day folks!!
I've had this decoder for some time on my Marklin 3001 engine which I retrofitted with motor kit 60943
It has always worked properly.


So what decoder did you put in it?
Offline nhumps  
#3 Posted : 28 January 2023 21:28:25(UTC)
nhumps

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/12/2018(UTC)
Posts: 104
Location: Kapiti Coast
Hi, for a decoder in the 60760 kit the wire colours are:

yellow = hot wire to the rear headlight
gray = hot wire to the front headlight
orange = ground return for functions
green = motor connection
blue = motor connection
brown = ground return
red = track power conductor

The orange is a "ground return" but if using with LEDs the orange is the positive side (ANODE) and the yellow/gray are the negative side (CATHODE).

Hopefully that is helpful, but how have the LED kit(s) been wired in? I did install my last one of these kits yesterday so this is fresh for me.
You can definitely turn on and off the front and rear lights with a 60760 and they will change with a direction change.

Edited by user 29 January 2023 01:20:28(UTC)  | Reason: typo

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Offline einotuominen  
#4 Posted : 29 January 2023 08:01:35(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 390
Location: Kaarina
Also make sure you have a series resistor if using LEDs. 1000 ohm is recomended. You can have one in both yellow and grey wire or just one in the common wire (orange).

Make sure that never ever the orange wire get into contact with the track ground. Id. Loco body.

Can you upload a photo of you decoder, the wire colors you have sound strange…

-Eino
Offline ocram63_uk  
#5 Posted : 29 January 2023 09:13:03(UTC)
ocram63_uk

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: England, Suffolk
The light kit has all the necessary resistors and diodes.

Attached a photo of decoder and connections as suggested by seller.

567925F3-0FFB-455A-A1DE-0C0158B329F7.jpeg

The decoder is a 60760
I might have to buy a new one just to be on the safe side of things.
I have also inserted some cardboard strips between chassis and light fittings in order to avoid contacts between the two.

Is it normal for the lights to be always on independently of how the F0 button on the EcOS is set?
Offline einotuominen  
#6 Posted : 29 January 2023 10:46:14(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 390
Location: Kaarina
Originally Posted by: ocram63_uk Go to Quoted Post


The decoder is a 60760
I might have to buy a new one just to be on the safe side of things.


Don’t buy another 60760. I’ve made that mistake. You can get mLD3 as cheap as 28€ on eBay. https://www.maerklin.de/...ts/details/article/60983

You also get aux output for smoke unit.

Can’t say why the lights are always on… does the loco run?

-Eino
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bph
Offline ocram63_uk  
#7 Posted : 29 January 2023 11:46:17(UTC)
ocram63_uk

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: England, Suffolk
loco runs but programming is a bit funny. Programming kicks in after I put light switch on and then off. I might have blown the decoder in my prior attempt to install the lights, maybe
Offline bph  
#8 Posted : 29 January 2023 11:50:55(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 1,000
Originally Posted by: ocram63_uk Go to Quoted Post
The light kit has all the necessary resistors and diodes.

Attached a photo of decoder and connections as suggested by seller.

The decoder is a 60760
I might have to buy a new one just to be on the safe side of things.
I have also inserted some cardboard strips between chassis and light fittings in order to avoid contacts between the two.

Is it normal for the lights to be always on independently of how the F0 button on the EcOS is set?


Can you provide a link to the led solution ?

how does it behave if you eg disconnect the yellow wire ? (separate it from the decoder and between the led "boards")
Offline einotuominen  
#9 Posted : 29 January 2023 11:59:43(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 390
Location: Kaarina
Do you know the resistance value of those resistors you have in the light system?

I always use 1k ohm. Not sure how easily the decoder can be fried though. Hopefully someone else has experience on this.

However, you will be more happy with some more modern decoder, like the mLD3.

-Eino
Offline einotuominen  
#10 Posted : 29 January 2023 12:06:05(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 390
Location: Kaarina
Originally Posted by: bph Go to Quoted Post

how does it behave if you eg disconnect the yellow wire ? (separate it from the decoder and between the led "boards")


This is a good suggestion by bph. You say it works with light bulbs, right? I’d test it with simple LEDs also and if those work, then I guess the LED system you have, is causing trouble.

-Eino

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bph
Offline ocram63_uk  
#11 Posted : 29 January 2023 12:16:42(UTC)
ocram63_uk

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: England, Suffolk
the seller is: vulpus01
Right now I'm not at home so can't tell which resistor it has in place, nor do the yellow cable test.

Don't need a mLD3 on this shunter the 60790 work fine.
Offline einotuominen  
#12 Posted : 29 January 2023 12:41:21(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 390
Location: Kaarina
Let us know what happen when you have tested more simple connection with just single LED at both ends.

Ah, this goes off topic, but personally, the more precise control you need (ie. shunting), it pays off to have more precise decoder. BigGrin

Anyways, if you only shunt, set the max speed to 28, so you can have shorter speed step intervals.

-Eino
Offline cintrans  
#13 Posted : 29 January 2023 15:10:00(UTC)
cintrans

Aruba   
Joined: 11/07/2018(UTC)
Posts: 173
Location: Aruba (general), Oranjestad
Hi Marco

I have installed a few of the 6070 kits and they work fine, not the top of the line decoder, but nice enough to have basic digital control.

As far as i can tell in your pic you have connected everything the way it should.

What might be the issue is the polarity of the LED board.
The orange wire from the decoder is the "positive (+)" wire, if the LED board uses the "negative" (cathode) as a common it wont work the way it should.
The easiest way to check if the decoder is still OK is by disconnecting the LED board and replace it with a temporary "normal" bulb for testing....

Good luck

Jean-Pierre
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bph
Offline ocram63_uk  
#14 Posted : 29 January 2023 15:16:26(UTC)
ocram63_uk

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: England, Suffolk
I'll try the 'old' bulb tonight. Thank you to all for your suggestions 👍🏻
Offline cintrans  
#15 Posted : 29 January 2023 15:34:15(UTC)
cintrans

Aruba   
Joined: 11/07/2018(UTC)
Posts: 173
Location: Aruba (general), Oranjestad
Marco

Sorry about that, but re-reading and re-checking your pic, i now see that you have 2 boards with each 2 LED's on it (white and red.
So before you try the "old" bulb, just disconnect one of the two boards and see what happens.
Check if then the lights switch on / off and change color when switching direction.

LED's are diodes, different colors have different property's and sometimes act strange when hooked up together....

Jean-Pierre
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Offline ocram63_uk  
#16 Posted : 29 January 2023 18:09:02(UTC)
ocram63_uk

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: England, Suffolk
the resistor has three coloured rings on it:
brown - green - orange - gold

is it of any help?

I'll be testing one of the boards only and see how it goes. Mainly if I can switch it off with F0 or not and report back
Offline kiwiAlan  
#17 Posted : 29 January 2023 18:16:35(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,121
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: ocram63_uk Go to Quoted Post
the resistor has three coloured rings on it:
brown - green - orange - gold

is it of any help?

I'll be testing one of the boards only and see how it goes. Mainly if I can switch it off with F0 or not and report back


That is 15k ohm, and is probably the right order of magnitude for modern high intensity LEDs. If there was only 1k I doubt you would be able to control the LED brightness.

Offline ocram63_uk  
#18 Posted : 29 January 2023 18:23:58(UTC)
ocram63_uk

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: England, Suffolk
With only one set of LEDs connected they are always on, F0 on and off, and nothing happens when I change direction of travel.

641FD701-8CE9-47C5-8798-373A07677BA9.jpeg

I can still try the 'old' lamp and see what happens.
Offline ocram63_uk  
#19 Posted : 29 January 2023 18:38:49(UTC)
ocram63_uk

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: England, Suffolk
Tried with the 'old' lamps, they are always on, F0 on or off. when I change direction of travel always on. If forward and grey cable connected, on, if reverse and grey cable connected, on. Decoder output blown then?
Offline cintrans  
#20 Posted : 29 January 2023 19:17:28(UTC)
cintrans

Aruba   
Joined: 11/07/2018(UTC)
Posts: 173
Location: Aruba (general), Oranjestad
Marco

Sorry to say, but it looks like indeed the decoder is gone....
I read in your initial post it was working fine before you did the LED's right?
I am pretty sure hooking up the two boards together caused a short circuit somewhere and is what killed it....

Jean-Pierre

Offline ocram63_uk  
#21 Posted : 29 January 2023 19:22:58(UTC)
ocram63_uk

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: England, Suffolk
before using the LEDs the 'old' lamps worked fine, they just flickered but nothing else. I'll wait for the new decoder
Offline cintrans  
#22 Posted : 29 January 2023 19:24:14(UTC)
cintrans

Aruba   
Joined: 11/07/2018(UTC)
Posts: 173
Location: Aruba (general), Oranjestad
Marco

Just for the heck of it, what happens if the gray wire is NOT connected?
Offline ocram63_uk  
#23 Posted : 29 January 2023 19:54:26(UTC)
ocram63_uk

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: England, Suffolk
not connected to the LED bar or generically?
Light bulb behaves the same even with the yellow cable.
Offline nhumps  
#24 Posted : 29 January 2023 20:25:01(UTC)
nhumps

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/12/2018(UTC)
Posts: 104
Location: Kapiti Coast
Long shot but have you tried a CV08,08 to reset the decoder to factory?
Offline cintrans  
#25 Posted : 29 January 2023 21:25:22(UTC)
cintrans

Aruba   
Joined: 11/07/2018(UTC)
Posts: 173
Location: Aruba (general), Oranjestad
Originally Posted by: ocram63_uk Go to Quoted Post
not connected to the LED bar or generically?
Light bulb behaves the same even with the yellow cable.


Marco

You put emphasis on the gray cable in your previous reply, so that's why i was wondering....
If the behavior is the same with the yellow cable, and it does not work any longer with the "old" bulbs either, the light circuit on the decoder probably developed a short.....

Expanding your picture i see there are also two diodes on the light bar, these are for switching the white to red LED's depending on the direction. Connecting the two boards together most probably created a circuit somewhere that allowed a current going straight to ground when switching direction, the excessive power draw most probably shorted one of the transistors on your decoder.

When i installed a 60760 kit in my Belgian series 55 lok and Swiss series 460 lok (both Delta's) i reused the existing diode board in order to keep the red and white light switching and Swiss light schemes.

Before you install the new decoder, do some research on how you should proceed on hooking these up. You might need to install some extra diodes into the circuit to prevent current to flow where it should not....

Jean-Pierre
Offline ocram63_uk  
#26 Posted : 29 January 2023 22:21:06(UTC)
ocram63_uk

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: England, Suffolk
@nhumps: I've not tried because, I thought, if the decoder light function is fried it wouldn't change anything
Offline ocram63_uk  
#27 Posted : 29 January 2023 22:47:33(UTC)
ocram63_uk

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: England, Suffolk
@jean-pierre: I don't know how the diodes work, the kit is made by somebody that should know what he's doing.
I believe they are there to switch white/red according to direction. With the new decoder I will try one set of LEDs at the time to see if they at least switch off, change colours based on direction. Then I'll put them together and see what happens. Can't do anything else, I guess :-)
Plus the seller says he tested the LEDs with a 60760 decoder (take his word for it)
Offline ocram63_uk  
#28 Posted : 30 January 2023 22:27:10(UTC)
ocram63_uk

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: England, Suffolk
I have an Ecos. I tried resetting the decoder to factory settings. Loco on programming track.
Selected Motorola programming and written the value of 8 in CV 8
Totally ineffective
Now, I know that Motorola doesn't use CVs but this is what the decoder manual calls the variables.
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Offline ocram63_uk  
#29 Posted : 04 February 2023 17:17:48(UTC)
ocram63_uk

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: England, Suffolk
UPDATE!!!!
New decoder arrived today. As I've got a decoder tester from ESU I first tried the decoder by itself, all worked.
I then inserted the LED lights, one at the time, in the tester and they worked, I finally connected both set of LEDs and all went well. Lights change with direction of travel: white forward and red rear and viceversa.

I made a mistake trying to reset the decoder to factory settings and thought that it would set its address back to 3 like all new decoders. I discovered that the default setting of this decoder is 78 so when I tried resetting it and the address was still 78 I thought it was 'burnt'. What a mistake to make!!! (said in 'Alo Alo' British comedy style) :-)
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Offline cintrans  
#30 Posted : 04 February 2023 18:16:02(UTC)
cintrans

Aruba   
Joined: 11/07/2018(UTC)
Posts: 173
Location: Aruba (general), Oranjestad
Good to hear that all is fine now! ThumpUp

Yep, the decoder has 78 as default address, in the heat of the battle it is easy to overlook the most obvious things sometimes...Blushing

Does that mean the light switching on the old decoder is OK also now, or is that still gone?

Jean-Pierre
Offline ocram63_uk  
#31 Posted : 04 February 2023 18:57:38(UTC)
ocram63_uk

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: England, Suffolk
plugged the old decoder into the decoder tester, both light indicators are on at the same time and they do not switch off. Usually they come on and off depending on travel direction and F0 key. Plus, it seems to accept a new address number but when I try to read it it says 'no decoder found'. I put it in the bin :-)
Offline mvd71  
#32 Posted : 04 February 2023 19:54:26(UTC)
mvd71

New Zealand   
Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,773
Location: Auckland,
Now that you have had success, is there any chance of photos of the finished loco and perhaps a link to the LED supplier just in case one of use gets enthusiastic?
Offline kiwiAlan  
#33 Posted : 04 February 2023 21:33:46(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,121
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: ocram63_uk Go to Quoted Post

I made a mistake trying to reset the decoder to factory settings and thought that it would set its address back to 3 like all new decoders.


Note that for NMRA DCC decoders the address 3 requirement is only for new decoders direct from the factory. Once a decoder has been set up a different default address can be set in the decoder so that doing a decoder rest does not set the address to 3, but to the new default address.

Many people make the mistake of claiming that the default address is always 3 when this is a fallacy.

Offline ocram63_uk  
#34 Posted : 04 February 2023 21:47:36(UTC)
ocram63_uk

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: England, Suffolk
@kiwiAlan, I didn't know this. In my ignorance all decoders are nought new and they have an address = 3
If I give an address of 33 to the decoder on my layout does this make it the new default address?

@mvd71, don't laugh, I've been trying to get the link of the LED lights seller's page from ebay since I bought it, but it takes me to the 'my purchases' page every time and I can't get the link. I'll make same photos tomorrow.
Offline ocram63_uk  
#35 Posted : 04 February 2023 21:56:27(UTC)
ocram63_uk

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: England, Suffolk
This is the item number, on ebay, of the lights I've got:
124695560156

There are two versions, analogue and digital.
It is important that the LED structures are well isolated from the chassis. I have made cardboard holders behind the original light holders, that have to be removed, and have also used some 'blue tack' for extra padding to keep the LED bars away from the chassis. Very DIY nerdy stuff :-)
Offline kiwiAlan  
#36 Posted : 04 February 2023 23:10:46(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,121
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: ocram63_uk Go to Quoted Post
@kiwiAlan, I didn't know this. In my ignorance all decoders are nought new and they have an address = 3
If I give an address of 33 to the decoder on my layout does this make it the new default address?


Not when changing the address from your throttle.

But take the case of an ESU decoder, when writing to a decoder from a Lokprogrammer there is a tick box which is set by default (it didn't use to be though) that when you write to a decoder it makes the CV values written (including the address) as new default values. Other manufacturers do similar things when writing a project to a decoder.
Offline ocram63_uk  
#37 Posted : 04 February 2023 23:28:28(UTC)
ocram63_uk

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: England, Suffolk
Here are a couple of pics taken tonight

3845686D-7E40-449E-A3E9-5A22E6B53CBD.jpeg
Going forward


056A3A27-9C64-4C23-AFF3-6DCEACB8CF57.jpeg
Going backward

HTH
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Offline ocram63_uk  
#38 Posted : 04 February 2023 23:39:30(UTC)
ocram63_uk

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: England, Suffolk
one of the assembled 'heads'

87141B2D-0B3F-482A-B72A-FD6218886E2D.jpeg
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