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Offline joseluisvalde  
#1 Posted : 20 January 2023 16:18:37(UTC)
joseluisvalde

Spain   
Joined: 02/04/2014(UTC)
Posts: 94
Location: san sebastian
Does anyone in the group have the Marklin UP 844 locomotive with dynamic smoke and on the whistle?
This smoke system (spectacular and equal to other American brands) has given me problems from the beginning. When I received it (in October 2021) I had to return it for that reason; Later I had the same problem again and now I find the same thing. Apparently when connecting the smoke, the consumption increases a lot (more than 2 A) and some component ends up burning.
Does anyone know this problem?
Thanks and regards
Jose Luis

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Offline marklinist5999  
#2 Posted : 20 January 2023 16:36:56(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 3,074
Location: Michigan, Troy
Oh yes, not I, but several have it, and have had a problem with smoke.
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#3 Posted : 20 January 2023 21:37:11(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
The smoke unit issues with the UP 844 and the BR02 are well known to Marklin.

Send your loco back to Marklin via your dealer for repair.
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Offline joseluisvalde  
#4 Posted : 20 January 2023 23:36:22(UTC)
joseluisvalde

Spain   
Joined: 02/04/2014(UTC)
Posts: 94
Location: san sebastian
Thanks for your comments.
I have sent the claim to my provider, but it is the third time I have done so. My fear is that they will repair or change the burnt component again, but if do not solve the origin of the problem, it will burn again.

The Americans who have this smoke system have also had quite a few problems, but it seems that they modified what is necessary and lately they are working better.
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#5 Posted : 21 January 2023 04:05:07(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
My Marklin 39027 BR02 arrived with a note in the box to say the repair had already been done. I haven't as yet had it on the track long enough to run it with smoke.
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Offline marklin61  
#6 Posted : 21 January 2023 07:45:29(UTC)
marklin61


Joined: 05/01/2007(UTC)
Posts: 101
Location: Tuki Tuki Valley
Jeepers, I have this model and like Dave haven’t yet run mind with smoke. Is there any indication I should be looking for to identify if the unit I have is problematic…or is it simply trial and error?
Steve...............

Life with Pinot Noir, Chocolate and Marklin trains..........
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Offline klarinettmeister  
#7 Posted : 21 January 2023 08:06:02(UTC)
klarinettmeister

Sweden   
Joined: 13/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 798
Location: Kirseberg
Mine got a short and it worked perfectly with smoke... for 2 seconds. Then the smell of burning electronics appeared. It's sent back to my dealer who has sent it back to Märklin some months ago...
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Offline joseluisvalde  
#8 Posted : 21 January 2023 10:53:50(UTC)
joseluisvalde

Spain   
Joined: 02/04/2014(UTC)
Posts: 94
Location: san sebastian
What I do is control with the CS or the Ecos the consumption in Amp when the smoke function is turned ON (F1). It should not consume more than 600 mA or at most a peak at 800 mA (smoke only; in standbay without smoke the consumption is approx 60 mA).
If this consumption rises, it will take little time for some component of the smoke PCB to burn.


Regards Jose Luis
Offline JohnjeanB  
#9 Posted : 21 January 2023 14:11:53(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,083
Location: Paris, France
Hi José-Luis
Originally Posted by: joseluisvalde Go to Quoted Post
Does anyone in the group have the Marklin UP 844 locomotive with dynamic smoke and on the whistle?
This smoke system (spectacular and equal to other American brands) has given me problems from the beginning. When I received it (in October 2021) I had to return it for that reason; Later I had the same problem again and now I find the same thing. Apparently when connecting the smoke, the consumption increases a lot (more than 2 A) and some component ends up burning.
Does anyone know this problem?
Thanks and regards
Jose Luis



I don't have the Marklin UP 844 but the Märklin BR 06 (39662) which also surely has the same dynamic smoke unit and I have not had problems but these:
- do not overfill the smoke unit (that is approx half the pipette delivered with the unit)
- when the loco does not smoke I blow a little air from a distance (10 cm) on the smoke exhaust with my mouth. Sounds ridiculous but it works. I guess it has to do with air locks (bubbles in the conduit).

As you know, the smoke unit switches off by itself after a while and its current draw is multiple times that of the whole loco (530 mA compared with 130 mA as measured by my CS3).
Yes, when there is no fluid, it smells like something is burning and it glows in the steam exhaust.
For sure, if your loco draws 2 amps there is something very wrong (it should be MAX 600 mA when all is on and the motor providing maximum effort).
Here are the total current needs
- all ON but speed is 0 and no smoke = 1 mA or less
- all ON but speed is normal and traction effort is normal. No smoke = 130 mA
- all ON , speed is normal and traction effort is normal, smoke is on = 530 mA

Sorry for these obvious things
Jean
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Offline bph  
#10 Posted : 21 January 2023 17:41:14(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 985
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post

I don't have the Marklin UP 844 but the Märklin BR 06 (39662) which also surely has the same dynamic smoke unit and I have not had problems but these:

For sure, if your loco draws 2 amps there is something very wrong (it should be MAX 600 mA when all is on and the motor providing maximum effort).
Here are the total current needs
- all ON but speed is 0 and no smoke = 1 mA or less
- all ON but speed is normal and traction effort is normal. No smoke = 130 mA
- all ON , speed is normal and traction effort is normal, smoke is on = 530 mA
Jean


Hi
Thanks for your data on the 06, quite interesting Smile, however the smoke generator on the UP 844 is a bit different than the one in the BR 06. (i have them both)
- different part numbers.
- different chamber design (judging from what's visible from above, and the drawings)
- 844 has 3x the chamber size and can take max 1,5 ml of smoke fluid vs 0,5 ml on the BR 06. ref the manuals.
- dedicated whistle smoke. ThumpUp
- in my opinion more heavy smoke, at least when full, and therefore it is likely to assume it draws some more current. but I have not measured it, nor have I compared them directly.

and as a side note: because of the reported issues, I have only used the recommended 02421 in my steamers with a dynamic smoke generator......
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Offline joseluisvalde  
#11 Posted : 21 January 2023 20:06:09(UTC)
joseluisvalde

Spain   
Joined: 02/04/2014(UTC)
Posts: 94
Location: san sebastian
I appreciate the interest in dynamic smoke on Marklin locomotives.
For my part I don't think I'm doing anything wrong when I use smoke (which is rarely). The quantity and quality of the smoke fluid according to the standard. I have some American locomotives that at first gave a lot of problems, but they have recognized the failures after several general complaints with various clients, and now it seems (crossing my fingers) that it is working well.
The Marklin UP 844 locomotive, I bought it in November 2021, when it came out, and from the first moment of testing I had to return it; The problem was repeated for the second time and recently for the third time.
I don't want to say that all have a problem, but it happens to me that consumption increases almost immediately above 2 A and soon some component ends up burning and the smoke stops working. Clearly Marklin fixed or changed the component, but not the source. I imagine that by now they have found a solution.
I bought the CS Ecos from Esu to be able to regulate the voltage of the transformer (in Marklin's it is fixed at 19V) and now I use it with 16.5V.
All my locomotives work well with that voltage and also the American ones with smoke; but this UP 844 keeps giving the same problem.
Now I wait for my supplier to inform me of his contact with Marklin.
Regards Jose Luis
Offline QQQ1970  
#12 Posted : 03 January 2024 23:20:47(UTC)
QQQ1970

Canada   
Joined: 06/02/2018(UTC)
Posts: 372
Location: Ontario, Toronto
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi José-Luis
Originally Posted by: joseluisvalde Go to Quoted Post
Does anyone in the group have the Marklin UP 844 locomotive with dynamic smoke and on the whistle?
This smoke system (spectacular and equal to other American brands) has given me problems from the beginning. When I received it (in October 2021) I had to return it for that reason; Later I had the same problem again and now I find the same thing. Apparently when connecting the smoke, the consumption increases a lot (more than 2 A) and some component ends up burning.
Does anyone know this problem?
Thanks and regards
Jose Luis



I don't have the Marklin UP 844 but the Märklin BR 06 (39662) which also surely has the same dynamic smoke unit and I have not had problems but these:
- do not overfill the smoke unit (that is approx half the pipette delivered with the unit)
- when the loco does not smoke I blow a little air from a distance (10 cm) on the smoke exhaust with my mouth. Sounds ridiculous but it works. I guess it has to do with air locks (bubbles in the conduit).

As you know, the smoke unit switches off by itself after a while and its current draw is multiple times that of the whole loco (530 mA compared with 130 mA as measured by my CS3).
Yes, when there is no fluid, it smells like something is burning and it glows in the steam exhaust.
For sure, if your loco draws 2 amps there is something very wrong (it should be MAX 600 mA when all is on and the motor providing maximum effort).
Here are the total current needs
- all ON but speed is 0 and no smoke = 1 mA or less
- all ON but speed is normal and traction effort is normal. No smoke = 130 mA
- all ON , speed is normal and traction effort is normal, smoke is on = 530 mA

Sorry for these obvious things
Jean


Blow air into smoke stack to clear the air bubbles works. At medium speed it draws 240mA with light smoke and sound.

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Offline joseluisvalde  
#13 Posted : 04 January 2024 12:32:45(UTC)
joseluisvalde

Spain   
Joined: 02/04/2014(UTC)
Posts: 94
Location: san sebastian
Thanks for your comment about the air bubbles in the smoke fluid. I know that topic and I practice it from time to time. I also use a syringe to avoid introducing air.
I must tell you that Marklin finally returned my money and I was left without locomotive 844 and without knowing if Marklin solves the problem.
I have 844 Broadway and chimney and whistle smoke work well. Current consumption is less than 500 mA.
I have also bought the 78191 from Roco with dynamic steam and in the cylinders; It works well but the smoke tank is different than Marklin or the American ones. The liquid is in a container without absorbent material; Consumption is low, but the drawback is that you cannot tilt, let alone turn, the locomotive because the liquid leaks out.

Regards
Jose Luis
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Offline marklinist5999  
#14 Posted : 04 January 2024 12:55:02(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 3,074
Location: Michigan, Troy
I notice that too much fluid makes little or no smoke on newer or narrow units.It will simmer until the level is below about halfway then smokes more.
Offline QQQ1970  
#15 Posted : 04 January 2024 15:01:28(UTC)
QQQ1970

Canada   
Joined: 06/02/2018(UTC)
Posts: 372
Location: Ontario, Toronto
Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
I notice that too much fluid makes little or no smoke on newer or narrow units.It will simmer until the level is below about halfway then smokes more.


Try blow air into the smoke stack when full. It may work.
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Offline joseluisvalde  
#16 Posted : 04 January 2024 18:19:45(UTC)
joseluisvalde

Spain   
Joined: 02/04/2014(UTC)
Posts: 94
Location: san sebastian
In my topic and all my answers, it is not about whether the smoke comes out or not, nor whether there is a little or a lot and with or without bubbles.
Let's assume that in that regard everything is done well. The problem is when the smoke function is turned ON, because in some steam locomotives, American or not, the Amp consumption rises above 500mA and a component of the PCB burns (that has been my case with the Marklin 844 that Marklin did not know or wanted to explain to me).
And my question remains: has the same thing happened to anyone on the Forum?
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Offline bph  
#17 Posted : 04 January 2024 20:12:30(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 985
Originally Posted by: joseluisvalde Go to Quoted Post
In my topic and all my answers, it is not about whether the smoke comes out or not, nor whether there is a little or a lot and with or without bubbles.
Let's assume that in that regard everything is done well. The problem is when the smoke function is turned ON, because in some steam locomotives, American or not, the Amp consumption rises above 500mA and a component of the PCB burns (that has been my case with the Marklin 844 that Marklin did not know or wanted to explain to me).
And my question remains: has the same thing happened to anyone on the Forum?


What smoke fluid are you using?
Offline joseluisvalde  
#18 Posted : 04 January 2024 21:56:17(UTC)
joseluisvalde

Spain   
Joined: 02/04/2014(UTC)
Posts: 94
Location: san sebastian
Regarding the smoke, I have done many tests, and regarding the liquid I have tried Seuthe, MTH and Broadway. It is difficult to prove which is better, but I think the one I like the most is the one from MTH, which also has a not unpleasant smell.
Regards
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Offline marklinist5999  
#19 Posted : 04 January 2024 22:10:13(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 3,074
Location: Michigan, Troy
Something is amiss if others are still having problems with the UP 844 smoke. This is not the first model to have a problem. In my experience with my 3780 br 10, I have exchanged smoke units and for whatever reason,it doesn't smoke at all anymore.
Offline QQQ1970  
#20 Posted : 04 January 2024 22:20:58(UTC)
QQQ1970

Canada   
Joined: 06/02/2018(UTC)
Posts: 372
Location: Ontario, Toronto
Originally Posted by: joseluisvalde Go to Quoted Post
In my topic and all my answers, it is not about whether the smoke comes out or not, nor whether there is a little or a lot and with or without bubbles.
Let's assume that in that regard everything is done well. The problem is when the smoke function is turned ON, because in some steam locomotives, American or not, the Amp consumption rises above 500mA and a component of the PCB burns (that has been my case with the Marklin 844 that Marklin did not know or wanted to explain to me).
And my question remains: has the same thing happened to anyone on the Forum?


130mA with light and sound. 240mA with smoke at medium speed. 360mA running a dynamic smoke and a conventional smoke steam locos together.

Seuthe smoke fluid.
Offline bph  
#21 Posted : 04 January 2024 23:17:53(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 985
Originally Posted by: joseluisvalde Go to Quoted Post
Regarding the smoke, I have done many tests, and regarding the liquid I have tried Seuthe, MTH and Broadway. It is difficult to prove which is better, but I think the one I like the most is the one from MTH, which also has a not unpleasant smell.
Regards


I had a chat with a Marklin service engineer on the phone and asked about the smoke problems in the 844.
The answer I got was that most of the problems were related to using the wrong type of smoke oil. And was advised to only use 02421 (ref the manual) and not even the 02420 or similar etc. Your problems might of course have other causes, this is just one possibility.

So it would be interesting to know if someone who has only used the 02421 also has experienced the same problems.
Note that other brands might(?) also work as long as they are of the same specifications/(lightweight type) as the 02421, but that is at your own risk.......
Offline rhfil  
#22 Posted : 05 January 2024 00:14:52(UTC)
rhfil

United States   
Joined: 05/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 422
Location: NEW HAMPSHIRE, Somersworth
Assuming a CS3 with just a normal power supply, what is the maximum amperage output? Seems to me it should be a great deal more than needed by a typical layout with a smoker running on it.
Offline Dave Banks  
#23 Posted : 05 January 2024 06:20:27(UTC)
Dave Banks

Australia   
Joined: 08/03/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,025
Location: Gold Coast, Australia.
Guys I just did this with my Marklin #37992 Big boy to overcome the huge power draw using two Seuthe smoke tubes by adding a Relay FRT2-S DC 12V:

[img]UserPostedImage[/img]

That sorted all my worries out.
D.A.Banks
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Offline QQQ1970  
#24 Posted : 05 January 2024 06:34:03(UTC)
QQQ1970

Canada   
Joined: 06/02/2018(UTC)
Posts: 372
Location: Ontario, Toronto
Originally Posted by: rhfil Go to Quoted Post
Assuming a CS3 with just a normal power supply, what is the maximum amperage output? Seems to me it should be a great deal more than needed by a typical layout with a smoker running on it.


Gray power supply, 50W so about 2.5A.

Black power supply, 60W so about 3A.
Offline joseluisvalde  
#25 Posted : 05 January 2024 09:29:00(UTC)
joseluisvalde

Spain   
Joined: 02/04/2014(UTC)
Posts: 94
Location: san sebastian
It is not about knowing how many Amps a power supplier can support. The question must be found in the output volts of the power supplier.
In the case of the CS3 it is a constant 19 V; With the Esu Ecos you can vary from 15 to 21 V. In my experience the best condition to work with dynamic smoke from Marklin and Broadway is a maximum of 16V.
The issue is that the PCB of the smoke boiler has some components (chips) that if they get too hot they will burn. Roco's dynamic smoke does not have this problem and neither does MTH's.
I think the type of liquid has little influence on this.

Regards Jose Luis
Offline joseluisvalde  
#26 Posted : 05 January 2024 09:31:52(UTC)
joseluisvalde

Spain   
Joined: 02/04/2014(UTC)
Posts: 94
Location: san sebastian
Originally Posted by: QQQ1970 Go to Quoted Post
130mA with light and sound.240mA with smoke at medium speed.360mA running a dynamic smoke and a conventional smoke steam locos together.

Seuthe smoke fluid.



What brand and/or reference do these locomotives have?

Offline JohnjeanB  
#27 Posted : 05 January 2024 10:21:43(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,083
Location: Paris, France
Hi
Regarding Märklin's pulsed smoke, my loco 39622 BE 06-001 failed because I used "standard" smoke liquid (Märklin's 0420 or RS24).
It was repaired by Märklin in Göppingen.
Now I use exclusively Märklin's 0421. I think using the other types, makes the fan stick which in turn makes the resistor overheat (glows red) and finally fails.
Cheers
Jean
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Offline joseluisvalde  
#28 Posted : 05 January 2024 11:22:03(UTC)
joseluisvalde

Spain   
Joined: 02/04/2014(UTC)
Posts: 94
Location: san sebastian
Great locomotive, if I find it I will buy it.
It is possible that the 0420 Seuthe fluid causes that problem you mention, but Marklin is the one recommended in the locomotive manual. I haven't used it. The failure problem in the 844 occurred after 1 minute of operation and was due to an excess of Amp, I don't think it could give time to damage the fan.
Regards
Offline QQQ1970  
#29 Posted : 05 January 2024 17:29:57(UTC)
QQQ1970

Canada   
Joined: 06/02/2018(UTC)
Posts: 372
Location: Ontario, Toronto
Originally Posted by: joseluisvalde Go to Quoted Post
Great locomotive, if I find it I will buy it.
It is possible that the 0420 Seuthe fluid causes that problem you mention, but Marklin is the one recommended in the locomotive manual. I haven't used it. The failure problem in the 844 occurred after 1 minute of operation and was due to an excess of Amp, I don't think it could give time to damage the fan.
Regards


If it draws 2A then I can see PCB gets burned right away.

My 39027 draws 244mA with smoke and medium speed.

I use Seuthe but will switch to Märklin 02421 just to be safe.
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Offline marklinist5999  
#30 Posted : 06 January 2024 15:23:37(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 3,074
Location: Michigan, Troy
I think Suethe makes the units for Marklin.
Offline QQQ1970  
#31 Posted : 06 January 2024 16:04:02(UTC)
QQQ1970

Canada   
Joined: 06/02/2018(UTC)
Posts: 372
Location: Ontario, Toronto
Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
I think Suethe makes the units for Marklin.


But not sure the smoke oil is same formula.
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#32 Posted : 06 January 2024 21:10:47(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
I think Suethe makes the units for Marklin.


Not the synchronised smoke units.
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Offline marklinist5999  
#33 Posted : 07 January 2024 13:15:20(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 3,074
Location: Michigan, Troy
Well that makes sense. No doubt the Chinese contractor to Marklin specs.
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