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Offline husafreak  
#1 Posted : 02 January 2023 07:20:34(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 557
Location: California, Bay Area
I have been poring over my collection this week and what I am really missing is modern coaches that are not very long. I have a good selection of older era coaches that fit the bill but I have avoided modern ones because they look ridiculous on 195mm and even 220mm curves. I’m not looking for non scale lengths, rather modern Era 5 or 6 passenger coaches that are shorter in length.
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Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 02 January 2023 10:31:18(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
The ICE 3 has coaches that are a bit shorter than standalone coaches.
The design of the TGV/Thalys makes it look better on curves. Never heard of a Z gauge model though.

UIC-Y coaches are 24.5 m, not 26.4 m. Not sure about Z gauge models. Not sure if those would be short enough for you.

Edited by user 02 January 2023 15:41:54(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Toosmall  
#3 Posted : 02 January 2023 11:26:27(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 608
Location: Sydney
It is partly why I have three 6 carriage ICE sets. The ICE 1 in Z just looks a bit better on curves. The connector piece does a pretty good job making the train streamline.

The tightest radius is 275mm, but the ICE still looks good on tight curves (220mm into the platforms).
63099crop.jpg

63062.jpg

At least you have the intelligence to ask about train dimensions. Unlike Australia which ordered carriages that were too big.

They had to get out the concrete saws & cut 100mm off platforms. Enlarge a few tunnel.

The same stuff-up happened in Canada. People didn't use a tape measure or don't know how too read one anymore.
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#4 Posted : 02 January 2023 15:22:25(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,666
Location: Hybrid Home
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
UIC-Y coaches are 25.5 m, not 26.4 m.
Auntie Wikipedia says even only 24.5 m: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/UIC-Y-Wagen_(DR)


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H0
Offline H0  
#5 Posted : 02 January 2023 15:49:11(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post
Auntie Wikipedia says even only 24.5 m: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/UIC-Y-Wagen_(DR)
Ah, my fault, thanks.
25.5 m comes from the SNCF/SNCB TEE coaches "Grand confort" - not a UIC type as it seems.

Anything modern shorter than 24.5 m I missed?
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline marklinist5999  
#6 Posted : 02 January 2023 15:56:51(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 3,074
Location: Michigan, Troy
Not having any Z scale myself, but older shorter than true to scale HO coaches, it's nice to have the classics, even if non prototypical. They should still be desireable for those with small layouts too. I also like comparing them to my newer longer cars. Given the older br 103's for example were also shorter than true scale, the older 9.75", 105/8", 23 cm and 26 cm. cars don't look that short. The max. length of modern cars is 30.3 cm, which is only a 4.3 cm difference.
It's not like using 1/64 scale vehicles on an ho layout, which I have seen, which look way to large.
Offline Toosmall  
#7 Posted : 02 January 2023 18:09:34(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 608
Location: Sydney
The Z gauge ICE 1 coach is 112mm centre to centre, so x 220 is 24.640 metres, so about 93% of the length of the real thing.

46683.jpg
Custom built Z Bord Restaurant
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Offline H0  
#8 Posted : 02 January 2023 18:51:59(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
The max. length of modern cars is 30.3 cm, which is only a 4.3 cm difference.
Dining coaches often are 27.5 m (that is 316 mm in H0) while the coaches of the ICE 4 exceed 28 m. The longest Märklin dining coaches in H0 are 282 mm (1:97) while the ICE 4 is rendered at 1:95.5, not 1:87.
Many double-stock coaches are longer than the standard length of 26.4 m.

The purpose of this thread is finding shorter prototypes, not longer ones, for Z gauge.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Toosmall  
#9 Posted : 02 January 2023 19:05:00(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 608
Location: Sydney
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post

The purpose of this thread is finding shorter prototypes, not longer ones, for Z gauge.



Unless it's like Australia which built different gauges in every State!

The problem on one hand but benifits on the other with Z gauge is that it is such an elitist scale that even one can buy new stock and can get it in under the radar of the Wifey!

The price is not the Wifey, but the limited range.
Offline husafreak  
#10 Posted : 04 January 2023 03:09:15(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 557
Location: California, Bay Area
Thanks for the info. I think in the very beginning Marklin did some coaches shorter than true to scale. Maybe I will settle for some of those if I can find them.
Offline Toosmall  
#11 Posted : 04 January 2023 11:00:58(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 608
Location: Sydney
You could always cut a bit out of the middle of a carriage to make it a bit shorter.

A bit cheaper than cutting two locos in half to make one twin engine loco!

DSC_1772~2.JPG
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Offline parakiet  
#12 Posted : 07 January 2023 00:17:46(UTC)
parakiet

Belgium   
Joined: 20/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 280
Location: Flanders!
Yep. The reason I try to stick to era II and era III. More shorter passenger cars.

Offline Toosmall  
#13 Posted : 07 January 2023 02:21:26(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 608
Location: Sydney
Just thought I would see how much track radius interacts with carriage length.

I have a truck load of these carriages so drilled 2 holes (no adverse affect) in one of the carriages, each 8mm towards the centre of the carriage, to represent the equivalent of 16 mm cut out of the centre of the carriage to make it shorter, which would fit the window spacing on this cartridge. Two windows removed. In this situation each end overhangs an additional 8 mm.

So in this situation just looking at carriage centre offset.

_MG_13800_115910.jpg

On my layout I did increase radius, but it was to keep gradients to 2%. The uphill track always on the outside.

Personally I wouldn't get too stressed over tight radiuses. But if you are really fussy maybe stick to about 0.5 metre minimum. I think changing direction from left to right without a transition is more visually irritating.


Chucking in a camber is nice:

IMG_8728.jpg

Transition between opposite curves:

63120.jpg
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Offline Zme  
#14 Posted : 08 January 2023 01:53:06(UTC)
Zme

United States   
Joined: 02/10/2013(UTC)
Posts: 760
Location: West Texas
Hello hope all is well.

It seems by ERA 5-6 the size of passenger wagons was pretty much standardized to the long versions which are common today. I believe even the ICE wagons stayed to the same standard size.

I was thinking you might consider set 81306, but unfortunately it is ERA 4. https://www.maerklin.de/...ts/details/article/81306

I think another set in the wrong ERA is the TEE, which has shorter wagons.

Perhaps more of these types will be released with different variants. Fortunately, freight wagons come in a variety of different lengths but some of the newer ones have lengths equal or near equal to the passenger wagons.

Take good care.

Dwight





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