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Offline Goofy  
#1 Posted : 24 September 2022 09:49:24(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,621
I did bought yesterday german train magazine Modell EisenBahner 10/Oct.
In this magazine it reports new locomotives tested.
BR 06 from Märklin
BR 364 from Brawa
Ae 3/6 from Roco

Brawa start at 0,4 km in the first speed step.
Roco start at 1 km in the first speed step.
Märklin start at 4,5 km in the first speed step.

Märklin shows huge jerk at this first speed step.
Why?

Roco do have Zimo sound decoder.
Brawa have D&H sound decoder.

It seems Märklins sound decoder does have bad program settings.

Edited by user 25 September 2022 18:06:26(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 26 September 2022 06:49:45(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,703
Location: DE-NW
Hi!

Märklin mfx decoders have this jerk start right from the start. I think they entered the market around 2008.

Märklin always tell us how ingenious their engineers are and how high the quality of their quality assurance is, but it seems they do not manage to reduce the jerkiness - or don't care about it.

An older thread discussing the jerky starts:
https://www.marklin-user...ious-motors-and-decoders
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline marklinist5999  
#3 Posted : 26 September 2022 15:37:24(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 1,868
Location: Michigan, Troy
My 39120 br E20 from 2007 is one of the earlier mfx Locs. It doesn't jerk start, but it's a soft drive C-sine motor.
Offline H0  
#4 Posted : 26 September 2022 16:15:30(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,703
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
My 39120 br E20 from 2007 is one of the earlier mfx Locs. It doesn't jerk start, but it's a soft drive C-sine motor.
I bet it has an ESU decoder, not a Märklin decoder.
In 2007 mfx decoder PCBs were blue and locos started smoothly.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Copenhagen  
#5 Posted : 26 September 2022 17:00:24(UTC)
Copenhagen


Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 292
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Is the BR 06 the model number 39662?
In this video at 8:50 there seems to be no jerkiness at start.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3tWav9CecWE
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Offline Copenhagen  
#6 Posted : 26 September 2022 18:11:21(UTC)
Copenhagen


Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 292
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Furthermore I just tested ten Maerklin locomotives (an assortment of steam, diesel and electric, all with mfx and sound) on my CS3. They all started extremely slow and smoothly on step 1 in both directions.
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Offline dickinsonj  
#7 Posted : 27 September 2022 01:09:12(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,540
Location: United States
All of my newer mfx locos run perfectly also, moving smoothly at speed step 1, which I find amazing. And that is not just a few examples because I have dozens of locos from 2014 on, with virtually every type of drivetrain.

I am wondering if the mfx problems that Tom has mentioned were mostly in Marklin's earlier attempts at mfx decoders. He would know better than I which years that might be.

Marklin would have been smart to just stick with ESU decoders and not taken this one inhouse, but it is what it is.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
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Offline H0  
#8 Posted : 27 September 2022 10:16:08(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,703
Location: DE-NW
We had this topic quite a few times.

Some do not notice the jerk.
Some do not care about the jerk.
Some notice the jerk and count it as a disadvantage of Märklin locos.

The jerk cannot be seen on Internet videos.

On the loco review videos of the MEC Fulda, they mention the jerk for almost every new Märklin loco. But, as I said: some care, some don't.

It was really bad with the MSD/MLD generation if motor type was not C90. But with MSD/3 and MLD/3 the load regulation at the start is still not on the level with other brands.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Purellum  
#9 Posted : 27 September 2022 11:39:06(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,455
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Don't be a Jerk......... LOL

Per.

P.S: Not aimed at anybody personally, just a joke. LOL

Cool
If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

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Offline Copenhagen  
#10 Posted : 27 September 2022 13:10:19(UTC)
Copenhagen


Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 292
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Did some speed tests (converted from scale to the equivalent in real life of course).

A BR 185 and a CFL 1800 did 2.7 km pr hour (1.68 mph) on step 1
A Litra D (39491) did 3.2 km pr hour (1.98 mph) on step 1

I didn't bother to check a couple of Roco locos because they went much, much slower at step 1.
A possible error to watch out for is that on the CS3 display you can set the speed higher in step 1 before the display shows step 2.
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Offline marklinist5999  
#11 Posted : 27 September 2022 14:33:27(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 1,868
Location: Michigan, Troy
Roco's with Zimo decoders have among the best motor controls. Very smooth slow starts, at least with my br 218 diesel #78749
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Offline marklinist5999  
#12 Posted : 27 September 2022 16:36:11(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 1,868
Location: Michigan, Troy
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
My 39120 br E20 from 2007 is one of the earlier mfx Locs. It doesn't jerk start, but it's a soft drive C-sine motor.
I bet it has an ESU decoder, not a Märklin decoder.
In 2007 mfx decoder PCBs were blue and locos started smoothly.

Tom, it's a blue decoder, so ESU right? The serial numbers are green on the bogie, S6047997. I read in an old thread on this that ornage numbers denote 2006 production for this Loco.

Offline JohnjeanB  
#13 Posted : 27 September 2022 16:43:02(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,287
Location: Paris, France
Hi
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
We had this topic quite a few times.

Some do not notice the jerk.
Some do not care about the jerk.
Some notice the jerk and count it as a disadvantage of Märklin locos.

The jerk cannot be seen on Internet videos.

On the loco review videos of the MEC Fulda, they mention the jerk for almost every new Märklin loco. But, as I said: some care, some don't.

It was really bad with the MSD/MLD generation if motor type was not C90. But with MSD/3 and MLD/3 the load regulation at the start is still not on the level with other brands.


As everyone can see, Tom does not like Märklin and not just on this post. We are all entitled to our opinion

Here is mine.

Yes Märklin is not perfect BUT which brand is perfect (ESU, ROCO, HAG, Fleischmann)?
I have approx 120 Märklin locos from 1950 onwards

On recent productions (from 2000 onwards)
- nothing beats the SDS motors with slow speeds as low as 1 mm per second, totally silent motor, very smooth running
- on Locos from 5 years back until now a large number of types use the CAN motor. It is cheap (10 to 20€) but very decent and silent.
- I may not be the most intelligent person but I know when there is a jerk and on the HUGE majority of these locos, the speed can be very low (1 mm/sec) and the start is very soft.
- additionally the locos have a very silent running so that sound volume is not too high (to cover the running noise)

Where Märklin could improve is on sound library and sound quality (is it from decoders or from library, I don't know).
Just my opinion
Jean

My layout videos
latest vid
marshalling yard
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Offline bph  
#14 Posted : 27 September 2022 18:21:40(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 609
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post


It seems Märklins sound decoder does have bad program settings.


I think it's more like Märklin has conservative general factory default settings, in order to ensure decent backwards compatibility etc and that it also works for all types of customers.
I haven't read the article and don't know if the factory settings were used or not, but a good unbiased reviewer should mention that.

Generally, it's no problem to improve the slow running. Eg my DSB E 991, uses 20 seconds to make one wheel rotation at Speedstep one, and it's nice and smooth without jerking. (minimum speed set to 3, DC hard motor, and a new calibration)
Offline Copenhagen  
#15 Posted : 27 September 2022 18:37:52(UTC)
Copenhagen


Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 292
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Originally Posted by: bph Go to Quoted Post

Generally, it's no problem to improve the slow running. Eg my DSB E 991, uses 20 seconds to make one wheel rotation at Speedstep one, and it's nice and smooth without jerking. (minimum speed set to 3, DC hard motor, and a new calibration)


Could you explain how you did that (if it's not too complicated)?. I'm not unhappy with the default settings on my 991 but it would be nice to know what is possible and how to achieve it.
Offline Goofy  
#16 Posted : 27 September 2022 18:41:57(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,621
I think members here did misunderstanding me?
I mean when the locomotive start move at first step.
I notice Märklin BR 06 do small jerk in the video.
I agree that Zimo do have best motor control.
It start locomotives very smooth.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Purellum  
#17 Posted : 27 September 2022 20:02:59(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,455
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

The locos used in the test, are they brand new out of the box, or have they been running before?

A loco needs running in before you get a very smooth start Cool

( Actually all DC motors with brushes needs running in, and "things" with gears does as well. )

Per.

Cool
If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

UserPostedImage
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Offline bph  
#18 Posted : 27 September 2022 22:14:57(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 609
Originally Posted by: Copenhagen Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: bph Go to Quoted Post

Generally, it's no problem to improve the slow running. Eg my DSB E 991, uses 20 seconds to make one wheel rotation at Speedstep one, and it's nice and smooth without jerking. (minimum speed set to 3, DC hard motor, and a new calibration)


Could you explain how you did that (if it's not too complicated)?. I'm not unhappy with the default settings on my 991 but it would be nice to know what is possible and how to achieve it.


It started when I noticed that Marklin has used both dc hard and soft settings on the same motor in different locomotives (exact same spare part number). and I heard a comment that some ad achieved improved driving on the E 991 with a esu decoder, so I just wanted to do a small test myself with the original decoder. and as you, I was not unhappy with the default settings.
And since I already was creating an extended decoder project for the locomotive, so I just changed the motor to dc hard. When you change the motor a new calibration is recommended. Personally, I think it improved the slow-running characteristic, so I decided to keep it, but I did not video document it, it was just to test for personal use. And some might also prefer the dc soft.
Anyway, and as Purellum writes a little run-in does not hut, and a new decoder claibration after the run-in might also be something to consider as this optimises the running characteristic to the motor actually installed and not just some factory defaults.. (write 77 to cv7 ref instructions)
Choosing the right motor setting is a bit vague from Märklin, but on stummiforum.de there is this general recommendation: "DC soft"- without flywheel and "DC hard" DC motor with flywheel. Still, other characteristics of the motor might also influence........
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Offline H0  
#19 Posted : 28 September 2022 10:02:23(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,703
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
As everyone can see, Tom does not like Märklin and not just on this post. We are all entitled to our opinion
We all know you are a hard-core Märklin fan.

I don't like to pay big bucks for downgraded quality. Märklin had a peak time with SDS and coreless motors and ESU decoders. Then came a break with "home brew" decoders and mostly three-pole can motors. This made a big difference with respect to slow running and with respect to digital sounds. For most locos there were no price reductions.

Piko had a peak time while they used ESU OEM LokSound decoders. Then came a break when they switched to Uhlenbrock OEM sound decoders.

All brands switch their suppliers from time to time. No brand does it quicker than Roco, but Brawa also did.

So one cannot say that Roco is much better than Brawa which is better than Märklin. This order may be true for randomly chosen 2022 locos, but situation will be different if we pick excellent all-time classics.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline David Dewar  
#20 Posted : 28 September 2022 12:14:35(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,111
Location: Scotland
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
We had this topic quite a few times.

Some do not notice the jerk.
Some do not care about the jerk.
Some notice the jerk and count it as a disadvantage of Märklin locos.

The jerk cannot be seen on Internet videos.

On the loco review videos of the MEC Fulda, they mention the jerk for almost every new Märklin loco. But, as I said: some care, some don't.

It was really bad with the MSD/MLD generation if motor type was not C90. But with MSD/3 and MLD/3 the load regulation at the start is still not on the level with other brands.


As everyone can see, Tom does not like Märklin and not just on this post. We are all entitled to our opinion

Here is mine.

Yes Märklin is not perfect BUT which brand is perfect (ESU, ROCO, HAG, Fleischmann)?
I have approx 120 Märklin locos from 1950 onwards

On recent productions (from 2000 onwards)
- nothing beats the SDS motors with slow speeds as low as 1 mm per second, totally silent motor, very smooth running
- on Locos from 5 years back until now a large number of types use the CAN motor. It is cheap (10 to 20€) but very decent and silent.
- I may not be the most intelligent person but I know when there is a jerk and on the HUGE majority of these locos, the speed can be very low (1 mm/sec) and the start is very soft.
- additionally the locos have a very silent running so that sound volume is not too high (to cover the running noise)

Where Märklin could improve is on sound library and sound quality (is it from decoders or from library, I don't know).
Just my opinion
Jean




Hi Jean. Looking at your comments you are way more intelligent than most above when it comes to Marklin so dont put yourself down. The only loco I have that is not great when starting is a Piko but it was a cheaper model. I have a Marklin from the cheaper kids range which starts not too bad but stops with a jerk.
This type of thread always starts with a Marklin basher. However Marklin like others can in time have problems with control track and locos and turnout motors etc all of which are useful.
If all other makes are better why buy Marklin or even join a Marklin group.
To be fair to Piko I have another of their locos which runs fine.


Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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Offline marklinist5999  
#21 Posted : 28 September 2022 14:26:49(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 1,868
Location: Michigan, Troy
Brawa, and ESU models cost a lot more.
Offline bph  
#22 Posted : 10 October 2022 11:19:26(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 609
Have now done a quick test of my 06.
Personally, I don't think I jerk at speed step one, even at factory default, it starts "normal" for the setting.
The minimum speed is from the factory conservatively set to 7, and can be adjusted down to get slower speeds.
I could adjust it down to 4. And after a quick automatic decoder calibration, I could use 3.
the calibration also reduced/"improved" the sound coming from the motor at slow speed. And it now uses approx 16-17 seconds on one wheel rotation, and no jerk's ;)

Note: Reverse requires a little more throttle on the CS3, because of how it is set up from the factory.
this can be "solved" by adjusting the "Correction Factor Rev." from 80 to 128(same as forward) (cv95). (personally, I prefer forward and reverse setting to be equal)
This setting is probably why the minimum speed is set to 7 from the factory.
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Offline marklinist5999  
#23 Posted : 10 October 2022 15:20:00(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 1,868
Location: Michigan, Troy
Don't mosat trains jerk upon start off as the play in the draw force of the couplers pulls?
Offline Goofy  
#24 Posted : 11 October 2022 06:20:45(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,621
I also notice that Märklin Locomotives doesn’t have same motor and it explain why value in the decoder are set in difference way. I suppose Märklin do sometimes mistakes too?
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline marklinist5999  
#25 Posted : 11 October 2022 13:38:04(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 1,868
Location: Michigan, Troy
Yes Goofy! like the gearing of the older Croc's? They never ran much above 40 km/hr right?
Offline bph  
#26 Posted : 11 October 2022 23:35:46(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 609
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
I also notice that Märklin Locomotives doesn’t have same motor and it explain why value in the decoder are set in difference way. I suppose Märklin do sometimes mistakes too?


This post indicates that Märklin uses the same motor in several new locomotives.
And yes mäklin also makes mistakes, as most makers do. Marklin has so far released 3 versions of the 06 decoder project. Interestingly in the two first ones, they used DC soft but in the final and on the actual decoder, they used DC hard Motor setting. but from v2. to v3 they only change the motor type and none of the other motor parameters as far as I can see. so that is probably the reason why the motor did not sound quite right to me originally and improved after a calibration run.
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