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Offline BenP  
#1 Posted : 24 August 2022 16:15:04(UTC)
BenP

United States   
Joined: 04/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 344
Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
I have one turnout that just won't activate with a k83 connected to CS3+. I have tried another turnout in that location, as well as other k83 boxes. I use 18 gauge wires to power k83. The active layout does not use more than 4A. I get just a tepid click, but no switching (its light works). Note that all other turnouts and signals on my large layout (40+) work fine with k83s.
I read that you can create a stronger k83 pulse by placing a capacitor between the turnout's yellow wire and common ground. I tried a 470uF 25V that I also use for LED lights. However, the capacitor blows up after 2 seconds (regardless of wiring ground to - or +).
What is happening and how can I safely add a capacitor to the obnoxious switch?
(I am an electrical novice)
Ben
Digital M (+ some K) track layout with mostly vintage rolling stock and accessories, and small Z scale layout.
https://youtube.com/play...0kgVYbh0CeDTF-bYXoD_2-V9
Offline kiwiAlan  
#2 Posted : 24 August 2022 18:42:43(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: BenP Go to Quoted Post
I have one turnout that just won't activate with a k83 connected to CS3+. I have tried another turnout in that location, as well as other k83 boxes. I use 18 gauge wires to power k83. The active layout does not use more than 4A. I get just a tepid click, but no switching (its light works). Note that all other turnouts and signals on my large layout (40+) work fine with k83s.
I read that you can create a stronger k83 pulse by placing a capacitor between the turnout's yellow wire and common ground. I tried a 470uF 25V that I also use for LED lights. However, the capacitor blows up after 2 seconds (regardless of wiring ground to - or +).
What is happening and how can I safely add a capacitor to the obnoxious switch?
(I am an electrical novice)
Ben


First, putting a capacitor across those two wires is asking for trouble, as it is effectively creating an AC short circuit across the AC supply to the k83. This is the reason it blows up.

You mentioned trying another point on the outputs, but there is no mention of changing the wires to the k83. 18 gauge is really overkill, but having got it in there that is fine. I suspect either the wire is not properly connected in a plug on one or other end of the wire, or the ground connection to the k83 is not good.

Do trains run happily across that section of track (I'm assuming you are using the track as ground return)?

Do you have other points or signals on the same k83? Do they work properly?
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by kiwiAlan
Offline BenP  
#3 Posted : 24 August 2022 19:44:12(UTC)
BenP

United States   
Joined: 04/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 344
Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: BenP Go to Quoted Post
I have one turnout that just won't activate with a k83 connected to CS3+. I have tried another turnout in that location, as well as other k83 boxes. I use 18 gauge wires to power k83. The active layout does not use more than 4A. I get just a tepid click, but no switching (its light works). Note that all other turnouts and signals on my large layout (40+) work fine with k83s.
I read that you can create a stronger k83 pulse by placing a capacitor between the turnout's yellow wire and common ground. I tried a 470uF 25V that I also use for LED lights. However, the capacitor blows up after 2 seconds (regardless of wiring ground to - or +).
What is happening and how can I safely add a capacitor to the obnoxious switch?
(I am an electrical novice)
Ben


First, putting a capacitor across those two wires is asking for trouble, as it is effectively creating an AC short circuit across the AC supply to the k83. This is the reason it blows up.

You mentioned trying another point on the outputs, but there is no mention of changing the wires to the k83. 18 gauge is really overkill, but having got it in there that is fine. I suspect either the wire is not properly connected in a plug on one or other end of the wire, or the ground connection to the k83 is not good.

Do trains run happily across that section of track (I'm assuming you are using the track as ground return)?

Do you have other points or signals on the same k83? Do they work properly?


The k83 contact works fine with older turnouts (and signals), but not with newer 5138 turnout. This seems a solenoid activation pulse issue for the particular item that I am unable to test. If it helps, the turnout works on the test bench, when using manual buttons from the analog days, instead of a k83.
Is there a right way to add a capacitor?
I just ordered a viessmann 5211 decoder, which adds external power, to see if that makes a difference.
Ben
Digital M (+ some K) track layout with mostly vintage rolling stock and accessories, and small Z scale layout.
https://youtube.com/play...0kgVYbh0CeDTF-bYXoD_2-V9
Offline mvd71  
#4 Posted : 24 August 2022 21:38:53(UTC)
mvd71

New Zealand   
Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,709
Location: Auckland,
It sounds like the turnout needs servicing. Try Märklin of Sweden for a good article on this
Offline JohnjeanB  
#5 Posted : 25 August 2022 16:11:06(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,084
Location: Paris, France
Originally Posted by: BenP Go to Quoted Post
I have one turnout that just won't activate with a k83 connected to CS3+. I have tried another turnout in that location, as well as other k83 boxes. I use 18 gauge wires to power k83. The active layout does not use more than 4A. I get just a tepid click, but no switching (its light works). Note that all other turnouts and signals on my large layout (40+) work fine with k83s.
I read that you can create a stronger k83 pulse by placing a capacitor between the turnout's yellow wire and common ground. I tried a 470uF 25V that I also use for LED lights. However, the capacitor blows up after 2 seconds (regardless of wiring ground to - or +).
What is happening and how can I safely add a capacitor to the obnoxious switch?
(I am an electrical novice)
Ben

Hi Ben
I understand you hear a faint noise but the switch does not move.
If this is correct I suggest:
- to check the strapping of the micro switch in the motor. The fact you hear a noise DOES NOT mean that the switch is fully functional
Check this


The other, possibility is a mechanical trouble in the switch (it happend to me in the past)
- check the mechanism for absence of lose ballast etc. If you don't feel confident to do delicate work DO NOT OPEN the switch mechanism (there are many little plastic latches to lock the protection plate in place and there are tiny parts and a spring ready to jump., just blow it.
- check if the motor is fully screwed (Sometimes the motor's command bar get stuck with the switch mechanism housing). Attention not to apply exessive force)

Note on K83 the common, yellow wire is positive single alternance rectified. Adding a strong capacitor is good in THEORY but in practice, you must check that the current to charge the capacitor is not beyond the "Absolute Maximum Ratings" of the rectifier inside the K83. I would not recommend it especially on M83 (60832) but Märklin developped a module to do just this on newer decoders the 60822 which is inserted between the power supply and the bank of M83 (60832). With an older M83 (6083) you can do it because replacing the bridge rectifier is OK (it is not Surface-mounted).
Here is an old-style M83 (6083), rather easy to repair, the following units are NOT.
Sans titre.png


.Cheers
Jean
Offline BenP  
#6 Posted : 25 August 2022 18:04:32(UTC)
BenP

United States   
Joined: 04/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 344
Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
Quote:

Hi Ben
I understand you hear a faint noise but the switch does not move.
If this is correct I suggest:
- to check the strapping of the micro switch in the motor. The fact you hear a noise DOES NOT mean that the switch is fully functional
Check this


The other, possibility is a mechanical trouble in the switch (it happend to me in the past)
- check the mechanism for absence of lose ballast etc. If you don't feel confident to do delicate work DO NOT OPEN the switch mechanism (there are many little plastic latches to lock the protection plate in place and there are tiny parts and a spring ready to jump., just blow it.
- check if the motor is fully screwed (Sometimes the motor's command bar get stuck with the switch mechanism housing). Attention not to apply exessive force)

Note on K83 the common, yellow wire is positive single alternance rectified. Adding a strong capacitor is good in THEORY but in practice, you must check that the current to charge the capacitor is not beyond the "Absolute Maximum Ratings" of the rectifier inside the K83. I would not recommend it especially on M83 (60832) but Märklin developped a module to do just this on newer decoders the 60822 which is inserted between the power supply and the bank of M83 (60832). With an older M83 (6083) you can do it because replacing the bridge rectifier is OK (it is not Surface-mounted).
Here is an old-style M83 (6083), rather easy to repair, the following units are NOT.
Sans titre.png


.Cheers
Jean


Thanks, Jean. I took the M switches fully apart and one is working again. May have been dirt inside the coil mechanism. I also got V5211 decoders to try, which have external power, instead of tinkering with added capacitor and rectifier. Learning as I go along (and blow capacitors :-)
Digital M (+ some K) track layout with mostly vintage rolling stock and accessories, and small Z scale layout.
https://youtube.com/play...0kgVYbh0CeDTF-bYXoD_2-V9
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M track turnouts - k83 pulse strength/duration? (Digital)
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