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Offline Artologic  
#1 Posted : 15 August 2017 17:32:23(UTC)
Artologic

Belgium   
Joined: 21/08/2010(UTC)
Posts: 432
Hey Everyone,

Has anyone attempted to upgrade the old marklin 216 (8874/8875) to 5 pole motor and or led lights? The old br216 can t convince me in the slow running department nor can the light part of the loco.

I hope to hear from someone who has an experience about it.

Kristof
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Offline zscalehobo  
#2 Posted : 15 August 2017 19:04:45(UTC)
zscalehobo

United States   
Joined: 22/01/2014(UTC)
Posts: 183
Location: CALIFORNIA, Irvine
http://www.zscale.org/articles/fivepole.html

There's a comment about it, it is not easy due to form factor with the capacitor.
Frank Daniels
Owner - z.scale.hobo
A Noch "Top Dealer"
Marklin Dealer and Z Locomotive Service
Irvine, California, USA
www.zscalehobo.com
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Offline Artologic  
#3 Posted : 15 August 2017 19:34:06(UTC)
Artologic

Belgium   
Joined: 21/08/2010(UTC)
Posts: 432
Is there a chance you are confusing with the 8899? That remark I found, but not one about the 8874/8875? I m still not afraid to do it, but I would want some first hand experience since if it really isn t worth it, it s a waste of time and money. I know they in general make the loco run better, but there are some exceptions, where it all doesn t help that much. Or that is at least what I heard...

Kristof
Offline zscalehobo  
#4 Posted : 16 August 2017 00:45:25(UTC)
zscalehobo

United States   
Joined: 22/01/2014(UTC)
Posts: 183
Location: CALIFORNIA, Irvine
8874 261920 211901(B) 8988/89881 no
8875 261920 211901(B) 8988/89881 no

Take note of note (b)... expanding that:
For locomotives of type BR 103, BR 151 and Ae 6/6 produced after mid-2002, you will need 211903 instead. Unfortunately, there is no easy way to differentiate the two versions of these models. Instead, make an educated guess: if your engine is brand-new, order the newer motor (211903); otherwise, purchase the older motor (211901). If you're not sure, purchase both motors and sell the one that doesn't fit on eBay. Please let me know if you have more information on this issue.

Not sure how you missed that, as it is pretty clear.

All quoted, again, from http://www.zscale.org/articles/fivepole.html
Frank Daniels
Owner - z.scale.hobo
A Noch "Top Dealer"
Marklin Dealer and Z Locomotive Service
Irvine, California, USA
www.zscalehobo.com
Offline Zme  
#5 Posted : 16 August 2017 02:19:28(UTC)
Zme

United States   
Joined: 02/10/2013(UTC)
Posts: 547
Location: West Texas
Hello

I have been watching for a five pole for my older 8874, please let me know if you find one.

Some say the five pole is not that much of an improvement over the three pole. I had the same problem with slow running, until I really took it apart and did a real good cleaning. It is amazing how much of a difference this can make. Once the wheels and gears are gummy and not moving easily, the slow speed really is disappointing. It would also heat and the body would not stay on the chassis. Cleaning the wheels can make a difference too.

Here is a YouTube I found which shows the take apart on this loco.



Sorry it is German language I think. This is the model I have and I think it shows most of the take apart steps. The motor looks like it may be possible to just drop in the new one while you are at it. Watch that piece of tape added to the top of the motor, this shows the side of the motor which you would want to have pointing up. The new motor would need to be placed the same, a little trial and error may come into play. If it seems to go in a direction opposite from what it was previously, just flip the motor and it should be good.

I have located LED light conversions on Ebay and they are fairly straight forward regarding the process. Instructions just need to be studied to make sure you have it correct. A good solder gun may be needed also.

Good luck

Dwight

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Offline strummer  
#6 Posted : 16 August 2017 03:55:58(UTC)
strummer

United States   
Joined: 03/08/2017(UTC)
Posts: 47
Location: Oregon, Waldport
That was a good video; I have yet to obtain a Marklin diesel (hope to get such as a "215") so this was most helpful.

It appears to be almost identical in design to some of the Arnold N scale locos I have...so maintenance seems very "doable". :)

Mark in Oregon
Offline Zme  
#7 Posted : 18 August 2017 04:30:51(UTC)
Zme

United States   
Joined: 02/10/2013(UTC)
Posts: 547
Location: West Texas
Hello

Yes you are correct these locomotive are doable.

As a do it yourselfers it might take you longer but there are professionals who know all about the problems you can run into. Try locating a spring for a coupler if one is dropped on the floor. Hours could be spent just trying to find it. It is hard to have all the replacement parts you need. I accidentally left some center gears soaking to long and had to replace them and I bet it took a month. A professional likely can avoid these kind of problems.

It is really up to you and what you feel you are ready for. A Br 74 is one of the simpler ones but it takes a bit of work to get the wheels correct. The more wheels on a steamer and the more time you can expect to spend on it. And remember don't drop anything in the process. I would not recommend these for beginners.

Best wishes on what you choose to do. The 216s are good puller s.

Dwight

Offline Artologic  
#8 Posted : 21 August 2017 11:30:08(UTC)
Artologic

Belgium   
Joined: 21/08/2010(UTC)
Posts: 432
Hey Everyone,

Thanks for the replies.

@Zscalehobo: I missed out on the (b), and since the information didn t say anything about the v216, I never noticed the reference. Still, if I recall correctly, the 8874 and 8875 were already out of production in 2002 and thus only use the old motor. But that s how I missed it lol.

@D_Landen: I will do that, I ll have to look for on myself if I choose to convert it to 5 pole. To be honest, the loc was bought very much used and had a big cleaning afterwards. They indeed tend to run bad if it all gets gummed up and dirty. I must say that the 8874 is the only one that can t convince me with his running, but since it has been cleaned it must be the loco/construction itself. Btw there is no heat issue either, but what I noticed is that the old loco s tend to loose tension in the body, after which they get loose a bit. Thanks for the link btw :-), do you have a link on the led conversion parts, I m curious about those?

@Strummer: Keep in mind that the v215/218 and the v216 (old models like 8874/8875) are slightly different in the way they are build, but the general idea is well explained in the movie. But indeed, they are nice to maintain :-).

@D_Landen (second reply): How did you do that, keeping it soaking too long? Did you put it in acid? What you say about the professionals is true, we probably take longer to complete the job, but since it s a hobby and I m in no hurry, I don t mind. And I think everyone makes his/her share of stupid mistakes lol. Also, the most part of the job is to dare do it and to take your time/have patience. That combined with a bit of skill and a shout out if you are stuck and it s very doable, but steamer indeed tend to be a bit more difficult. Start with a small engine and work you way "up".

The v216 is a great puller, better then my v218, I guess that comes because of the extra weight it has. Still the v218 I a superbe runner compared to the v216 and still manages to pull a fair train as well.

Kristof
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Offline Zme  
#9 Posted : 22 August 2017 03:30:24(UTC)
Zme

United States   
Joined: 02/10/2013(UTC)
Posts: 547
Location: West Texas
Hello

I believe Mr. Hobo likely has the information regarding the LED conversion. He is a professional, reliable dealer with a great deal of experience with Z. http://www.zscalehobo.com/ or look for his listings on Ebay US.

I am not certain which conversions are available, or if they are made for the 8874/5.

If he does not, I am certain Hightech Eisenmodelbahn would have something. http://www.z-hightech.de...g=6&sprache=englisch

I installed a LED kit on my Br 111 recently and now have a steady headlight at low speed and a trailing red light on this loco. Just needed to do a bit of soldering. I believe I got that one from GPS_97 a vendor on Ebay US, but I am certain something similar would be available on Ebay.de or one closer to you. The older 216 is designed very differently than current models, it is hard to say if there is a kit for it. Perhaps one could be adapted.

I have since learned not to keep any parts in a alcohol soak for too long. The finish actually comes off of the gears if left in too long. To avoid this, I now use a small jewelry ultrasonic cleaner and pay attention to make certain they are just cleaned and not damaged. Mr. Hobo says he has seen lighter fluid used to clear the hardened oil. I have not tried this yet, but I bet it works. Taking anything apart which has so many small parts, it is easy to get into trouble, either on reassembly or just losing something. It you decide to DIY, just keep this in mind. The professional are there to help and can come in handy too.

Best wishes in whatever you decide to do. Just enjoy and have fun, it is a great hobby.

Dwight





Offline Artologic  
#10 Posted : 24 August 2017 10:01:14(UTC)
Artologic

Belgium   
Joined: 21/08/2010(UTC)
Posts: 432
Hey Dwight,

I can do them myself, if I have the pieces, that s not the issue, making them myself, that s a bit too small for now (I attempted to make a silberlinge coach with lightning, but it wasn t a full success lol). The link you provided looks really interesting, thanks a lot for that! I m inventive so there will be something that fits all right :-).

You don t have by any chance an example of the lighting? I m curious to see it.

I never had the idea to put it in alcohol, I just use washing benzeen if that s the correct call, as long as you don t put any painted parts in it, it will be fine. I once tried to rub something off with alcohol and indeed it came off, including all the paint under it... Never used it again after that. The lighter fluid idea sounds like one to remember, thanks for bringing it up and thanks Mr. Hobo for sharing it. Spoken about professionals, it s a shame that the closest professionals I know about here are in The Netherlands or Germany and I don t really trust postal services, I wish I knew one in Belgium :-(.

Thanks I wish you the same, it indeed is a great hobby :-)

Kristof
Offline strummer  
#11 Posted : 01 September 2017 02:19:00(UTC)
strummer

United States   
Joined: 03/08/2017(UTC)
Posts: 47
Location: Oregon, Waldport
For whatever it's worth: I just purchased a "8875" from that auction site; should be here in a few days, and will file a report with you all as to how it turned out... Smile

Mark in Oregon
Offline Jags  
#12 Posted : 02 August 2022 04:08:58(UTC)
Jags

United States   
Joined: 22/11/2019(UTC)
Posts: 33
Location: Kona, Hawaii
Bringing back this thread with some clear and definitive information regarding motors and brushes for the Marklin 8874 and 8875 BR 216 Locomotives. I've been needing to replace a motor in one of my 8875 Locos and the information I was finding was quite confusing. It seems that the confusion is arising because there were three different motor versions used in the 8874 and 8875 Locos over the years.

The first original version had a 3-pole motor with no capacitor attached. The capacitor is soldered to the circuit board. There was a direct 5-pole replacement motor offered for a short time, but this motor is no longer available.

The second version had an internal change to a 3-pole motor that had the capacitor directly attached to it. It has a different circuit board and most importantly the chassis is different than the original version. This motor will not fit the original version unless you do some major modifications.

The Third version is basically the same as the second version, but it came with a 5-pole motor already installed. This motor will fit in the second version but not the original version.

Here is the breakdown with all the motor and brushes part numbers provided:

8874 & 8875
BR 216

Original Version
3-pole motor (no cap.) #261920
Brushes #8988 - Discontinued (substitute - #89881)
5-pole motor replacement (no cap.) #211901 - Discontinued

Second Version
3-pole motor (with cap.) #264440
Brushes #8989 - Discontinued (substitute - #89891)
5-pole motor replacement (with cap.) #211903

Third Version
5-pole motor (with cap.) #211903
Brushes #89891


I hope this information will be useful to others out there.

Thanks!!
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Offline Poor Skeleton  
#13 Posted : 02 August 2022 22:49:25(UTC)
Poor Skeleton

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/10/2015(UTC)
Posts: 462
Location: England, Cambridge
Originally Posted by: Artologic Go to Quoted Post
Hey Everyone,

Has anyone attempted to upgrade the old marklin 216 (8874/8875) to 5 pole motor and or led lights? The old br216 can t convince me in the slow running department nor can the light part of the loco.

I hope to hear from someone who has an experience about it.

Kristof


Hi Kristof,

I have successfully replaced the motor in an 8874 with one of the later 5-pole types. This requires a bit of machining of the chassis block so isn't really practical unless you have access to a milling machine (or, better still, have a friend who has). Having said that I don't feel this has improved the running of the loco, so I wouldn't recommend you undertake it unless you have a non-runner. What can improve the running is to make sure everything is running freely. On one of mine, for example, I found that loosening the screw that holds the bogie together freed up the mechanism an the loco ran much more smoothly as a result.

As for LED lighting, I fitted a pair of white CK LED modules to mine. However the orientation of the light is such that this won't really work that well with the Red/White module and I modified my modules by refitting one of the LEDs to the same side as the other and, I think, reorienting them so the illumination is at 90 degrees to normal.

Hope that's of help


Chris



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Offline Artologic  
#14 Posted : 03 August 2022 00:12:48(UTC)
Artologic

Belgium   
Joined: 21/08/2010(UTC)
Posts: 432
Originally Posted by: Poor Skeleton Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Artologic Go to Quoted Post
Hey Everyone,

Has anyone attempted to upgrade the old marklin 216 (8874/8875) to 5 pole motor and or led lights? The old br216 can t convince me in the slow running department nor can the light part of the loco.

I hope to hear from someone who has an experience about it.

Kristof


Hi Kristof,

I have successfully replaced the motor in an 8874 with one of the later 5-pole types. This requires a bit of machining of the chassis block so isn't really practical unless you have access to a milling machine (or, better still, have a friend who has). Having said that I don't feel this has improved the running of the loco, so I wouldn't recommend you undertake it unless you have a non-runner. What can improve the running is to make sure everything is running freely. On one of mine, for example, I found that loosening the screw that holds the bogie together freed up the mechanism an the loco ran much more smoothly as a result.

As for LED lighting, I fitted a pair of white CK LED modules to mine. However the orientation of the light is such that this won't really work that well with the Red/White module and I modified my modules by refitting one of the LEDs to the same side as the other and, I think, reorienting them so the illumination is at 90 degrees to normal.

Hope that's of help


Chris





Too bad I don t have access to one of those, but if you say it barely makes a difference, I ll leave her as is, but I sure will try loosening the screw.for leds I only need a white (front) lifht, maybe it makes it easier like this?

Ajags, thank you very much for the list, it dor sure will come in handy for anyone (not only me) attempting a conversion, thank you very much for figuring out and sharing!
Offline Artologic  
#15 Posted : 03 August 2022 00:14:19(UTC)
Artologic

Belgium   
Joined: 21/08/2010(UTC)
Posts: 432
Originally Posted by: strummer Go to Quoted Post
For whatever it's worth: I just purchased a "8875" from that auction site; should be here in a few days, and will file a report with you all as to how it turned out... Smile

Mark in Oregon



Lost track of this reply, so how did it turn out?
Offline Poor Skeleton  
#16 Posted : 03 August 2022 22:26:10(UTC)
Poor Skeleton

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/10/2015(UTC)
Posts: 462
Location: England, Cambridge
Originally Posted by: Artologic Go to Quoted Post
for leds I only need a white (front) lifht, maybe it makes it easier like this?



In that case the CK LED modules may be of interest https://ckled.co.uk/. I find they can be improved in 8874/8875 by modifying the modules a little, but they work pretty well as they come.

All the best


Chris
Offline Mman  
#17 Posted : 04 August 2022 18:24:40(UTC)
Mman

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 219
Location: England, Guildford
I changed the three pole motor in the 8874 I bought on eBay earlier this for a five pole one I happened to have. It was a straight swap - no machining or any alterations were necessary. The box is dated 1/73 and the instructions 03/74.
As I had some of the CK LED modules I started to fit them - as I have done with several other locos, but the pcb part would not push in easily. Rather than force them I re-fitted the conventional lamps intending to have another go later. My main reason for both changes was to reduce the current consumption to suit the Rokuhan controllers that I have.
I agree that the dual red/white CK LEDs can give unwanted results with the red illuminating the top position as well but mostly I just want headlights since it is unprototypical to have red lights shining back at the front of the first coupled vehicle. Red tail lights denote the last vehicle in a train in most counties. Only if the engine is running light or propelling would red tail lights be acceptable. Fine for multiple unit railcars of course.
ChrisG
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Offline Poor Skeleton  
#18 Posted : 04 August 2022 22:05:25(UTC)
Poor Skeleton

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/10/2015(UTC)
Posts: 462
Location: England, Cambridge
Originally Posted by: Mman Go to Quoted Post
I changed the three pole motor in the 8874 I bought on eBay earlier this for a five pole one I happened to have. It was a straight swap - no machining or any alterations were necessary. The box is dated 1/73 and the instructions 03/74.
As I had some of the CK LED modules I started to fit them - as I have done with several other locos, but the pcb part would not push in easily. Rather than force them I re-fitted the conventional lamps intending to have another go later.


Now you mention it I think I did have to run a file on the outer edges of the module so it would fit comfortably.

I definitely found it beneficial to rotate one of the LEDs by 90 degrees so it is shining perpendicular to the PCB and remove the LED from the other side of the PCB and fit it adjacent to the first, (You have to do this in reverse for the other end of the loco owing to the polarity of the LEDS.)

As the PCB sits vertically in this model the modification redirects the illumination forward rather than towards the roof.

Cheers


Chris

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