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Offline Mr. Ron  
#1 Posted : 03 August 2022 01:57:17(UTC)
Mr. Ron

United States   
Joined: 05/07/2020(UTC)
Posts: 244
Location: Mississippi, Vancleave
In order to reduce noise created between trains and plywood base, I want to use foam insulation between the track and plywood. What is the best way to attach the M-track to the foam as it won't hold screws? Will construction adhesive hold the track to the foam? Using longer screws would defeat the purpose of the foam. Besides small screws don't come in longer lengths.
Offline JohnjeanB  
#2 Posted : 03 August 2022 02:32:06(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,120
Location: Paris, France
Originally Posted by: Mr. Ron Go to Quoted Post
In order to reduce noise created between trains and plywood base, I want to use foam insulation between the track and plywood. What is the best way to attach the M-track to the foam as it won't hold screws? Will construction adhesive hold the track to the foam? Using longer screws would defeat the purpose of the foam. Besides small screws don't come in longer lengths.

Hi Ron
adding a cork base force you to select extra long screws to reach the plywood under it.
The other negative effect is that the M track is alredy high above the base plate and the cork base adds to it.
My suggestion is to use, under the metal roadbed either a thin plastic foam as for insulation or a layer of felt.
This forces you to "dress" the steep sides of the M rails to hide this insulation material
There is an excellent video for adding realism to M track


One last thought: avoid large flat surfaces of plywood as they act as drums to amplify the rail noise.
A frame struture with transverse vertical ribs, adapted to the scenery landform, with trees, grass etc will damp the noise a lot.
Compare this noisy naked version of my layout with this type of construction (except where the turntable is)


with this with the decoration, which absorbs the noise a lot



Note: I also had those rubber bars developped by Märklin 7171 around 1965 to insert inside the roadbed and the noise reduction was not great.
Sans titre.png
I hope this helps a little

Jean




My layout videos
latest vid
marshalling yard
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by JohnjeanB
Offline Mr. Ron  
#3 Posted : 03 August 2022 18:51:29(UTC)
Mr. Ron

United States   
Joined: 05/07/2020(UTC)
Posts: 244
Location: Mississippi, Vancleave
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mr. Ron Go to Quoted Post
In order to reduce noise created between trains and plywood base, I want to use foam insulation between the track and plywood. What is the best way to attach the M-track to the foam as it won't hold screws? Will construction adhesive hold the track to the foam? Using longer screws would defeat the purpose of the foam. Besides small screws don't come in longer lengths.

Hi Ron
adding a cork base force you to select extra long screws to reach the plywood under it.
The other negative effect is that the M track is alredy high above the base plate and the cork base adds to it.
My suggestion is to use, under the metal roadbed either a thin plastic foam as for insulation or a layer of felt.
This forces you to "dress" the steep sides of the M rails to hide this insulation material
There is an excellent video for adding realism to M track


One last thought: avoid large flat surfaces of plywood as they act as drums to amplify the rail noise.
A frame struture with transverse vertical ribs, adapted to the scenery landform, with trees, grass etc will damp the noise a lot.
Compare this noisy naked version of my layout with this type of construction (except where the turntable is)


with this with the decoration, which absorbs the noise a lot



Note: I also had those rubber bars developped by Märklin 7171 around 1965 to insert inside the roadbed and the noise reduction was not great.
Sans titre.png
I hope this helps a little

Jean






Thank you, Jean, for your input. Your layout looks good, but unfortunately one solution does not fit all situations. My track is now fastened down to a plywood deck, but I'm thinking to raise all the track 18 to 25 mm for a home insulation board. The reason for the foam board will be two-fold. To reduce noise and to hide wiring. I want to run wiring above the plywood, so I would be embedding the wires in a trench in the foam. At 87, I cannot crawl under a layout to do wiring. It looks to me that I will have to attach the track to the insulation board with a construction adhesive. I have watched and enjoyed all of Martin's videos. He has an exuberant presence that makes watching him most enjoyable. I guess I'm one of those trying to re-invent the wheel. Unfortunately, that ends up in a waste of time, that in my case I cannot afford. But I look at building a layout as an engineering challenge. I may never complete my layout, but I am constantly trying to build, learn and experiment along the way. By the way, I understand layouts are never complete, but always a project-in-progress. Even Wunderland in Hamburg is undergoing changes all the time. It sounds silly to be comparing my layout to the Wunderland layout. I always enjoy reading your posts here, as you show interest in other people's work.
Offline ccranium  
#4 Posted : 03 August 2022 18:52:48(UTC)
ccranium


Joined: 30/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 21
Location: Seattle area
I'm using felt as well; I got a big piece of under-rug felt from Ikea and put it down double thick. It cuts the M-track noise from the drum effect quite well, but M-track is still M-track as far as the metal-on-metal sound. I screw it down using the M-track screws so I can remove sections easily if needed to add circuits and blocks later, or work on finicky turnouts. I trim the sides using a circular fabric cutter as much as possible, and then finishing with a sharp razor knife where the circular cutter can't reach. In areas with ballast, I mix my own color from Woodland Scenics' colors and do the white glue and sprinkle method, followed by careful spraying of white glue & water to hold down the loose grains (avoiding the trackbed). Catenary wires go back on the masts after the tracks are vacuumed and cleaned one "final" time. A lot of work but I find it's worth it.

I just saw your reply to Jean about the need to wire above the decking, so this may not work for you.

Good luck with the method you choose!
Offline JohnjeanB  
#5 Posted : 03 August 2022 19:27:18(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,120
Location: Paris, France
Hi Ron Hi everybody
I don't know about you but on my layout, each time I had wiring in a non accessible way I regretted it. In some place I had to have it because of the 3 levels on at least 40% of my layout.
So, just in my opinion, duct the cable to under the table and have them free so any future addition or repair is easily possible. above is good as long as you don't add scenery

regarding M track and noise:
- M track is inherently noisy (steel drum like in the CarribiansCursing )
- damping the noise has been tried by Märklin by using the 7171 rubber support, bands of foam to insert inside (7172 around 1958) the track but the results are not convincing.
- screws are usefull but make a link between the rail and the plywood that transmits noise. They are standard 1.7 mm by 15 mm countersunk heads - longer if cork or foam is used
- the best solution is to use lightly glued foam and lightly glued rails in limited places to have the maximum damping. Best is also to have foam (styrofoam? styrodur?) against each side of the metal ballast. Alas its a lot of work but sound and visual results are excellent
Using the Noch "Hin und Weg" glue (Noch 61121) allows to make an elastic link with the noise insulator. You may remove it without deteriorating the M track when making changes

Cheers
Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
marshalling yard
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by JohnjeanB
Offline 1borna  
#6 Posted : 08 August 2022 20:54:38(UTC)
1borna

Croatia   
Joined: 21/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,039
Location: Hrvatska
I used 2 thin layers of Styrodur of 3 mm each or 5 mm thick foam insulation (substrate for laminates) as a base.
UserPostedImage
every second or third rail is attached with one 1.7x20 mm screw not fully tightened.
The ride is somewhat quieter, but you can't expect the old metal wagons to drive as quietly as the newer ones with plastic undercarriage. After all, the real railway is quite noisy!
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Offline Mark5  
#7 Posted : 09 August 2022 00:43:12(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,201
Location: Montreal, Canada
Originally Posted by: 1borna Go to Quoted Post
I used 2 thin layers of Styrodur of 3 mm each or 5 mm thick foam insulation (substrate for laminates) as a base.
[img....]
every second or third rail is attached with one 1.7x20 mm screw not fully tightened.
The ride is somewhat quieter, but you can't expect the old metal wagons to drive as quietly as the newer ones with plastic undercarriage. After all, the real railway is quite noisy!


Hi Borna,
This looks quite interesting!
Would love to see how you continue to develop this and how you manage to maintain sound dampening.
Looks like a long folded dogbone. And as you say the metal cars are much more noisy.
No sound decoder needed to add extra effects... Love

I am curious if your cars will be side-swiped with those very close rails at the right if there would happen to be two trains going side by side. That may not be an issue as it looks like your intention is to merge traffic up ahead, but am thinking about these issues in my current plans for staging areas.

Jean,
a bit OT but thanks for sharing those videos of your layout in what appears to be an older state.
I am curious if you are using an R1 for your helix? I have thought of only using R2 and R3 for my helix out of concern for longer cars not being about to manage the curves well.

- Mark
DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1955-65, fan of V200, electrics and steam, so hard to narrow down...
...signaling systems, yard traffic and shunting, Sommerfeldt catenary,
and station architecture (esp. stations from 1920-70).
In process: a new modular layout, track planning and drawing benchwork.
Email anytime or chat live: https://discord.gg/jAEKyTWQPQ
Offline 1borna  
#8 Posted : 09 August 2022 21:10:00(UTC)
1borna

Croatia   
Joined: 21/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,039
Location: Hrvatska
There is plenty of room near the tracks, everything has been tested before permanent installation.
UserPostedImage
This is how it looks after placing another layer of insulating material with a glued screed
UserPostedImageUserPostedImage
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Offline polabear  
#9 Posted : 10 August 2022 04:03:13(UTC)
polabear

Canada   
Joined: 19/06/2011(UTC)
Posts: 21
Location: Canada
Another possible solution, that worked great for me.......
Poke a small hole through the track with the tip of the intended screw to mark the spot where you need to anchor. Remove the track. Glue a small thin square of wood to the foam centered on the mark. I used popsicle type sticks from a craft store, (about 3/4" wide cut into squares), and builder's adhesive in a caulking gun. In some situations you might have to install one below grade, (around switches and signal baseplates), but just hack out an area and fill it with enough adhesive to fill any gaps. Once the glue is dry reinstall the track. Drill a small pilot hole, (either directly or by marking the screw locations and removing the track).
Now your screws will bite nicely into wood without losing any of the sound deadening qualities of the foam.

Regards, Dave




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Offline Alsterstreek  
#10 Posted : 10 August 2022 16:52:50(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,303
Location: Southwesternmost
I am doing this with C track, but the same approach could be used for M track, too:

3 mm cardboard "roadbed" glued onto white rigid styrofoam boards with white glue. Once the glue is dry, track segments are fixed with screws driven into the 3 mm cardboard.

(I once used Liquid Nails adhesive to glue C track directly onto foam boards for a former layout. Worked well, but track removal was a mess when dismantling: not so good.)
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Offline gmeb  
#11 Posted : 12 August 2022 05:20:36(UTC)
gmeb


Joined: 05/04/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3
Location: Northern California
Originally Posted by: Mr. Ron Go to Quoted Post
In order to reduce noise created between trains and plywood base, I want to use foam insulation between the track and plywood. What is the best way to attach the M-track to the foam as it won't hold screws? Will construction adhesive hold the track to the foam? Using longer screws would defeat the purpose of the foam. Besides small screws don't come in longer lengths.


"Besides small screws don't come in longer lengths" Really! Can it be so?
Offline PMPeter  
#12 Posted : 12 August 2022 18:30:53(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,204
Location: Port Moody, BC
Originally Posted by: gmeb Go to Quoted Post
"Besides small screws don't come in longer lengths" Really! Can it be so?



Yes it can be so. What he meant to say is small diameter screws don't come in longer lengths. Perhaps you can find longer lengths made out of SS in online specialty stores, but not generally in hobby shops or hardware stores here in North America.
Offline Secret Experiment  
#13 Posted : 14 August 2022 06:33:07(UTC)
Secret Experiment

Australia   
Joined: 05/04/2022(UTC)
Posts: 9
Location: Victoria, Melbourne
Originally Posted by: polabear Go to Quoted Post
Another possible solution, that worked great for me.......
Poke a small hole through the track with the tip of the intended screw to mark the spot where you need to anchor. Remove the track. Glue a small thin square of wood to the foam centered on the mark. I used popsicle type sticks from a craft store, (about 3/4" wide cut into squares), and builder's adhesive in a caulking gun.


Thank you polabear, I think I'll try your sugggestion. For what it's worth (and this isn't original, of course), I cover the entire layout surface with 5mm polyester felt bought from a fabric store - it's quite cheap. The sound deadening is excellent, you get a pleasant "hiss" from the train rather than the high pitched clattering. A good thing is that it is quite "grabby", that is, the rails don't slide around on it very easily so you need far fewer screws etc and you can even screw some smaller items directly into the felt without going into the wood below. However, I think I'll combine the felt with polabear's idea, might be the perfect solution and easy to do with a quick setting glue.

One comment about wiring, I've just successfully built an experimental track with automatic train control for 5 engines/6 signals/4 home signals (be gentle, I'm new to this hobby! It's Fig 34 in the Signal Manual and I'm using predominately 1950s equipment which is a story in its own right). Since it's a test track, the wiring is just lying on top of the felt. What struck is just how much wiring is needed I'll attach a pictureIMG_4690.jpg! It's extraordinary, and if I get bored one day, I might measure it all, just to see how many meters there are. And that's without the catenary wiring and the lighting which I'm going to add in. I suppose I mention this because the thought of chiselling out grooves to make channels for this wiring in the foam would fill me with dread! I'm not sure what the solution is if you can't get under the table easily.
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Offline BenP  
#14 Posted : 16 August 2022 11:16:48(UTC)
BenP

United States   
Joined: 04/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 106
Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
Originally Posted by: Secret Experiment Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: polabear Go to Quoted Post
Another possible solution, that worked great for me.......
Poke a small hole through the track with the tip of the intended screw to mark the spot where you need to anchor. Remove the track. Glue a small thin square of wood to the foam centered on the mark. I used popsicle type sticks from a craft store, (about 3/4" wide cut into squares), and builder's adhesive in a caulking gun.


Thank you polabear, I think I'll try your sugggestion. For what it's worth (and this isn't original, of course), I cover the entire layout surface with 5mm polyester felt bought from a fabric store - it's quite cheap. The sound deadening is excellent, you get a pleasant "hiss" from the train rather than the high pitched clattering. A good thing is that it is quite "grabby", that is, the rails don't slide around on it very easily so you need far fewer screws etc and you can even screw some smaller items directly into the felt without going into the wood below. However, I think I'll combine the felt with polabear's idea, might be the perfect solution and easy to do with a quick setting glue.

One comment about wiring, I've just successfully built an experimental track with automatic train control for 5 engines/6 signals/4 home signals (be gentle, I'm new to this hobby! It's Fig 34 in the Signal Manual and I'm using predominately 1950s equipment which is a story in its own right). Since it's a test track, the wiring is just lying on top of the felt. What struck is just how much wiring is needed I'll attach a pictureIMG_4690.jpg! It's extraordinary, and if I get bored one day, I might measure it all, just to see how many meters there are. And that's without the catenary wiring and the lighting which I'm going to add in. I suppose I mention this because the thought of chiselling out grooves to make channels for this wiring in the foam would fill me with dread! I'm not sure what the solution is if you can't get under the table easily.


The approach I used in an earlier layout is connection of main board to a wall with hinges. When working on wiring, the upturned board gives easy access. Do remove loose items :-)
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