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Offline luckas  
#1 Posted : 15 June 2022 10:52:16(UTC)
luckas


Joined: 06/02/2002(UTC)
Posts: 191
Location: ,
Greetings,

I've set CV values for acceleration and deceleration for my locomotives to 0, as my layout is controlled using software. However, I notice on the setup page that there are values specified for acceleration and deceleration (even though the CV values themselves are zero in the CV configuration page).

Is this normal / a bug in the CS3 display?

Paul
Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 15 June 2022 11:03:51(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,602
Location: DE-NW
The CS2 has acceleration and braking delays as a feature, handled by the CS2, not the decoder. This delay works even for Delta decoders that do not have this feature themselves.
I assume the CS3 has the same feature.

I don't know if those delays apply when a loco is controlled by software.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline JohnjeanB  
#3 Posted : 15 June 2022 13:28:41(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,113
Location: Paris, France
Hi
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
The CS2 has acceleration and braking delays as a feature, handled by the CS2, not the decoder. This delay works even for Delta decoders that do not have this feature themselves.
I assume the CS3 has the same feature.

I have to gently disagree there, having used CS2s for over 11 years and a CS3 over one year.
The acceleration delay and braking delay (CV 3 and CV4 in MM2) are stored by the decoder and speed is managed by the decoder.

Changing the acceleration or braking delays is ineffective on a Delta or C80 decoder. Even, on a C90, it was also managed by the decoder using a potentiometer for adjustment (and NOT by the CS2, CS3,..).
So, in short, the CS2 or CS3 help entering parameters into the decoder (such as the latest mSD3 / mLD3 now).

No, the CS2 or CS3 does send a lot of speed corrections to manage the speed smooth change. Rocrail used to do this but not anymore.
Cheers
Jean

My layout videos
latest vid
marshalling yard
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Offline H0  
#4 Posted : 15 June 2022 13:57:07(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,602
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
No, the CS2 or CS3 does send a lot of speed corrections to manage the speed smooth change.
That's azackly wot I said.
And it also works for Delta decoders.
And you can set the length of smooth speed transition on the CS2 configuration screen.

Here is the CS2 screen where you set the acceleration and braking delay handled by the CS2, not the decoder:
UserPostedImage
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline JohnjeanB  
#5 Posted : 15 June 2022 14:40:59(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,113
Location: Paris, France
Sorry Tom
CS2 and CS3 are tools to transfer parameters to decoders INCLUDING the accel. Brake delays.
This does not mean the CS2 / CS3 is DOING the accel./ Brake delay (by sending a succession of digital orders). They DO NOT.
Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
marshalling yard
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by JohnjeanB
Offline marklinist5999  
#6 Posted : 15 June 2022 14:45:34(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 1,697
Location: Michigan, Troy
Tom, it appears you are in the br 323 Loco. configuration menu for it's decoder though. Otherwise, any adjusting doen from a centtal controller would send the same parameters to the rails regardless of the loco. on the tracks, No?
Offline H0  
#7 Posted : 15 June 2022 14:59:29(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,602
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
CS2 and CS3 are tools to transfer parameters to decoders INCLUDING the accel. Brake delays.
This does not mean the CS2 / CS3 is DOING the accel./ Brake delay (by sending a succession of digital orders). They DO NOT.
Sorry, Jean.

A quote from the German manual: "Nur die Werte, die beim Ändern gelb werden, werden beim Senden an die
Lok auf den Decoder geschrieben. Wird nach dem Ändern nur mit dem
grünen Haken bestätigt, werden die Änderungen nicht an die Lok gesendet und somit nicht wirksam.
Alle Werte, die weiss bleiben z.B. die Bremsverzögerung, werden nur vom
Steuergerät simuliert.
Sollen diese Werte geändert werden, muss dies
über den CV-Zugriff geschehen."

I didn't find an English version of the manual.

Google translation:
"Only the values that turn yellow when changed are written to the decoder when they are sent to the locomotive. If you only confirm with the green tick after the change, the changes are not sent to the locomotive and are therefore not effective.
All values that remain white, e.g. braking deceleration, are only simulated by the control unit. If these values are to be changed, this must be done via CV access."

Note the word "simuliert". The CS2 can simulate acceleration and braking delay. This is done for all decoders, Delta, MM, DCC, mfx. It is done by sending a succession of digital orders.
You can see this simulation if the needle of the speedometer moves slowly.
When you turn this simulation off in the CS2, the needle will jump to the new speed immediately. The delays handled by the decoder will then still be effective.
This means the CS2 is sometimes doing the acceleration and braking delay. That's it.
Feel free to disagree, but facts are facts.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline marklinist5999  
#8 Posted : 15 June 2022 15:32:53(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 1,697
Location: Michigan, Troy
But, what do I know.
Offline JohnjeanB  
#9 Posted : 15 June 2022 17:27:45(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,113
Location: Paris, France
No Tom is correct as he refers to an old feature allowing to conduct manually old decoders by sending a few speed commands.
I systematically cancel this command by setting the delay to zero.
My mistake as I forgot about this very old feature.
Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
marshalling yard
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Offline marklinist5999  
#10 Posted : 15 June 2022 18:56:46(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 1,697
Location: Michigan, Troy
Ok, I was wondering about it on the CS3 when he said he assumed they both had it. I don't have a CS2.
Offline luckas  
#11 Posted : 16 June 2022 09:13:29(UTC)
luckas


Joined: 06/02/2002(UTC)
Posts: 191
Location: ,
So just to confirm,

The CV values 3 & 4 on the configuration page (which have been uploaded to the lok) have been set at zero, as my software handles these.

The differing "Acceleration Delay" and "Braking Delay" visible on the set up page do nothing.

Paul

IMG_6737.JPG

IMG_6735.JPG
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Offline Danlake  
#12 Posted : 16 June 2022 12:11:41(UTC)
Danlake

New Zealand   
Joined: 03/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,564
Hi Paul,

If you are using a PC software to control your trains don’t worry about what the CS2 or CS3 has for setting the simulated braking and acceleration delays.

But for peace of mind you can just put in to zero.

In regards to actual CV value of decoders I set mine to a bare minimum which I feel comfortable with to not abruptly e.g. stop a train. As with you my PC software decides on the actual braking and acceleration. Normally I might have cv values of around 6-12.

Best Regards,
Lasse
Digital 11m2 layout / C (M&K) tracks / Era IV / CS3 60226 / Train Controller Gold 9 with 4D sound. Mainly Danish and German Locomotives.
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Offline JohnjeanB  
#13 Posted : 16 June 2022 13:19:36(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,113
Location: Paris, France
Hi Paul, Lassie
Rail software like Rocrail transmit only one speed oder per event (when entering a block and when reaching the IN section near the signal) and NOT using the acceleration provided by the CS2 / CS3.
So I would recommend to let all your loco decoders do the inertia simulation: do not set accel. and brake delays to zero.

In the past, Rocrail (and probably its competitors) used to provide tools to control smoothly, old-style decoders but not anymore
This has been removed because of many high quality decoders not needing to be step-controlled and mostly because there is a huge data traffic (caused by sophisticated decoders- sound announcements, physical functions, etc) and this old style step control is not helping

Cheers
Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
marshalling yard
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by JohnjeanB
Offline bph  
#14 Posted : 16 June 2022 18:15:08(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 521
Originally Posted by: luckas Go to Quoted Post
I've set CV values for acceleration and deceleration for my locomotives to 0, as my layout is controlled using software. However, I notice on the setup page that there are values specified for acceleration and deceleration (even though the CV values themselves are zero in the CV configuration page).

Is this normal / a bug in the CS3 display?


Hi
When the Acceleration and Breaking delay settings are changed in the "Configuration tab" the values in "Set up tab" should update themselves automatically. At least it does on my CS3 and a recent mfx locomotive.

what software version are you running on the CS3? and what decoder firmware is in your locomotive?

one thing you can try is to change the values in the "Configuration tab", and then do a new decoder readout to see if the "set up tab" responds to that. you can also try to delete the locomotive and register it again.

thanks 2 users liked this useful post by bph
Offline Martti Mäntylä  
#15 Posted : 16 June 2022 21:20:36(UTC)
Martti Mäntylä

Finland   
Joined: 15/11/2018(UTC)
Posts: 307
Location: Uusimaa, Helsinki
Rocrail has the optional "Block-Brake-Timer" (BBT) feature that implements stepwise deceleration. By default, this feature reduces speed in 10 steps starting at the "enter" sensor and reaching min speed by the "in" sensor. Ten commands does not seem an excessive burden.

I have nevertheless found it useful to also let the decoders do their own deceleration magic, so that the final slowdown from min speed to zero also becomes smooth. By setting the parameters right, digital locos come to full stop at the contact track for "in". While I am not aware of how CS2/CS3 implement the acceleration / deceleration functions, I suspect that enabling decoder acceleration / deceleration would improve the behaviour of the locos just like in my case.
- Martti M.
Era III analog & digital (Rocrail, CAN Digital Bahn, Gleisbox/MS2, K83/K84), C & M tracks, some Spur 1
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Offline Danlake  
#16 Posted : 17 June 2022 10:49:49(UTC)
Danlake

New Zealand   
Joined: 03/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,564
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi Paul, Lassie
Rail software like Rocrail transmit only one speed oder per event (when entering a block and when reaching the IN section near the signal) and NOT using the acceleration provided by the CS2 / CS3.
So I would recommend to let all your loco decoders do the inertia simulation: do not set accel. and brake delays to zero.

In the past, Rocrail (and probably its competitors) used to provide tools to control smoothly, old-style decoders but not anymore
This has been removed because of many high quality decoders not needing to be step-controlled and mostly because there is a huge data traffic (caused by sophisticated decoders- sound announcements, physical functions, etc) and this old style step control is not helping

Cheers
Jean


Sorry, my mistake. I assumed most PC software would be able to handle realistic brake and acceleration like Traincontroller. In Traincontroller you can do advance speed profiling and by applying the brake and acceleration settings you prefer it controls the train much more realistic than what I have been able to with CS.
Digital 11m2 layout / C (M&K) tracks / Era IV / CS3 60226 / Train Controller Gold 9 with 4D sound. Mainly Danish and German Locomotives.
Offline Goofy  
#17 Posted : 25 June 2022 07:37:20(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,574
Originally Posted by: luckas Go to Quoted Post
So just to confirm,

The CV values 3 & 4 on the configuration page (which have been uploaded to the lok) have been set at zero, as my software handles these.

The differing "Acceleration Delay" and "Braking Delay" visible on the set up page do nothing.

Paul

IMG_6737.JPG

IMG_6735.JPG


You can either change value in the setup or via configuration.
I do it in both when i change my locomotive.
Even sounds volume you see it stand value.
Märklin did created this program easy for us to change values direct in the setup if not less you want do it via configuration instead.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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