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Offline LocoLynk  
#1 Posted : 20 June 2022 06:37:35(UTC)
LocoLynk

United States   
Joined: 01/09/2021(UTC)
Posts: 13
Location: California, San Diego
So I have been digging around and can't seem to find any threads with the same issue, but I have been experiencing a frustrating power loss with most of my 3 Way turnout (C-track 24630s)...at low speeds (shunting speed and most of my 3 way turnouts are in the shunting yard) I get a power drop, but only when the turnout is in the LEFT turn position. It is not a short and a little nudge and the loco keeps rolling...it would appear the slider is losing contact of the studs, and it is driving me crazy! I don't want to run locos dangerously fast in the yard and I also don't want to keep getting up to nudge my locos, it is killing my "flow" to keep stopping like this! I had 1 recommendation to install the "stay alive" capacitors, but that gets expensive and a lot of extra work and another to maybe use conductive paint on the frog/blades..?

Any one else run into this? Thanks Josh
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by LocoLynk
Offline marklinist5999  
#2 Posted : 20 June 2022 22:49:29(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 1,659
Location: Michigan, Troy
I also, and don't know what to do about it.
Offline LocoLynk  
#3 Posted : 20 June 2022 23:17:55(UTC)
LocoLynk

United States   
Joined: 01/09/2021(UTC)
Posts: 13
Location: California, San Diego
Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
I also, and don't know what to do about it.


Is it also just the left turn for you also?
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by LocoLynk
Offline JohnjeanB  
#4 Posted : 21 June 2022 01:18:59(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,080
Location: Paris, France
Hi Josh
My layout has 9 triple switches (24630) they are used in a digital way and motorized.
I have worked a lot with them and only met one problem; one loco was having difficulties (slider or wheel) which would create a short, depending on the angle of the long studs near the rails (only need to bend them a little.
I also did some surgery on one to modify the track curve
But all 9 work without any problem.

So the problems to check on yours:
- the plate at the bottom of rail tracks must be connected to ground (check with a multimeter)
- the stud plate (under the switch) must be fully home (pressed against the plastic ballast)
- the metal switch blades (others are made of plastic) Make sure they are connected to ground (some oxydation in the blade axle pitt may prevent a good contact. Use contact spray to prevent corrosion
- the slider of your loco must be perfectly flat and not worn out (metal color change and groove). It must also be perfectly centered between the wheels. Check that when turning left, the slider is "taking off" above the rail it crosses by 0.5mm or so.
- check the axles of your loco: are they making good contact with the ground

Here is a video of mine in automatic operation without any current interruption
In this video there are 4 triple switches used by the moving trains you see at various speeds w/o any problems


Here is the surgery work I did on one
24630-IMG_4429R.jpg

NOTE: some very simple and old locos (like the 3029) have only 2 true axles one of which with traction tyres which may cause contact problems. Some middle axles which are floating are not helping. On newer locos now axles are spring loaded against the track to force a good contact with the track.
The slider have also improved by removing the hole near the center which was causing a lack of contact.
I hope you will find the solution to your problem.
Cheers
Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
Offline mike c  
#5 Posted : 21 June 2022 01:49:37(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,421
Location: Montreal, QC
The tracks are offset. The original M track 3-way switch had a common frog and was symmetrical. This has resulted in slight differences in the space between studs, depending on which direction the train is heading. The left turn (yellow) has the longest spacing between studs, which may be the reason why it is more prone to problems.

24360 Jump.jpg

Regards

Mike C
Offline JohnjeanB  
#6 Posted : 21 June 2022 01:58:05(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,080
Location: Paris, France
Hi Josh
Here is another zone of my layout with a 3-way switch used for mashalling yard
Sorting out of wagons

Preparing the train out of the yard


What loco are you using? Is it a Märklin one?
Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
Offline LocoLynk  
#7 Posted : 21 June 2022 06:33:07(UTC)
LocoLynk

United States   
Joined: 01/09/2021(UTC)
Posts: 13
Location: California, San Diego
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi Josh
My layout has 9 triple switches (24630) they are used in a digital way and motorized.
I have worked a lot with them and only met one problem; one loco was having difficulties (slider or wheel) which would create a short, depending on the angle of the long studs near the rails (only need to bend them a little.
I also did some surgery on one to modify the track curve
But all 9 work without any problem.

So the problems to check on yours:
- the plate at the bottom of rail tracks must be connected to ground (check with a multimeter)
- the stud plate (under the switch) must be fully home (pressed against the plastic ballast)
- the metal switch blades (others are made of plastic) Make sure they are connected to ground (some oxydation in the blade axle pitt may prevent a good contact. Use contact spray to prevent corrosion
- the slider of your loco must be perfectly flat and not worn out (metal color change and groove). It must also be perfectly centered between the wheels. Check that when turning left, the slider is "taking off" above the rail it crosses by 0.5mm or so.
- check the axles of your loco: are they making good contact with the ground

Here is a video of mine in automatic operation without any current interruption
In this video there are 4 triple switches used by the moving trains you see at various speeds w/o any problems


Here is the surgery work I did on one
24630-IMG_4429R.jpg

NOTE: some very simple and old locos (like the 3029) have only 2 true axles one of which with traction tyres which may cause contact problems. Some middle axles which are floating are not helping. On newer locos now axles are spring loaded against the track to force a good contact with the track.
The slider have also improved by removing the hole near the center which was causing a lack of contact.
I hope you will find the solution to your problem.
Cheers
Jean


Jean - Thanks for their depth reply! I have looked into most of these issues and to answer your question from your other reply:

All my locos are Marklin, most of them fresh from overhaul and decoder installation, so the sliders are mostly newly replaced or in good condition and fit (flat/straight etc). Any of my locos that were manufactured in the last 3 or so years are not prone to the same error that I am having with the rest...I believe they either have "stay alive" capacitors installed, or they have the new style of sliders with no hole/indentation like the old style ones. Having spent about an hour earlier running various locos it appears that they are stopping exactly at the point with the indentation on the slider occurs when the loco going forward for backward across the left turn. In the picture (in my reply to mike c) I have circled the stud/pukos at which this occurs, every time.

At slightly faster speeds this is not an issue, but I currently have a decent sized marshaling yard and love shunting operations (when they go smoothly!) but at realistic speed, this is driving me crazy!

I love your videos and love that you have a "real" hump yard on an incline with the uncoupler track placed there, brilliant!

Thanks Again and I will keep you updated on my "fixes", Josh


Offline LocoLynk  
#8 Posted : 21 June 2022 06:41:20(UTC)
LocoLynk

United States   
Joined: 01/09/2021(UTC)
Posts: 13
Location: California, San Diego
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
The tracks are offset. The original M track 3-way switch had a common frog and was symmetrical. This has resulted in slight differences in the space between studs, depending on which direction the train is heading. The left turn (yellow) has the longest spacing between studs, which may be the reason why it is more prone to problems.

24360 Jump.jpg

Regards

Mike C


Mike Thanks for the reply, yes its always the left turn and it seems to over and over occur when the slider reaches the (left turn) stud I have circled in your picture. It without fail occurs when the indentation in the slider crosses that stud and the power drops! My newer locos are not prone to this as they have the sliders with no indentation or have a capacitor.

Other than operating faster than I would prefer I guess I can add capacitors?

Thanks Josh resource.ashx.jpeg
Offline LocoLynk  
#9 Posted : 21 June 2022 17:54:47(UTC)
LocoLynk

United States   
Joined: 01/09/2021(UTC)
Posts: 13
Location: California, San Diego
Here I have attached a couple of videos, trying to capture the "moment" and position...the last vid is a newer 212 slow and smooth...

]power drop v260

power drop 212

]no power drop 212

Thanks Josh
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by LocoLynk
Offline JohnjeanB  
#10 Posted : 21 June 2022 20:36:48(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,080
Location: Paris, France
Hi Josh

Below is what I believe and I may be wrong
Here is where you loco stops
24630 Puckos Yours.png
You may see clearly that the contact stops when the slider recess (w. hole) is in front of the green oval stud and this is normal. What is not normal is the current feed should be provided by the studs behind (closer to the point)

Here is the top view of the switch
24630 Puckos on your sw.png
The studs on the right should make contact with the slider.
I can't see on the picture but beware that some studs are made of plastic so, make sure the contact is with a metallic one
One thing is sure: there is no design error and I don't observe any stops on my 24630

Of course with a slider without recess, the pick-up is much improved. It is possible to swap the slider shoes from one with recess to another without but keeping the spring and fixation part of the one with recess.

Notes:
- of course pick up a new slider shoe of the same length
- extract the shoe by opening slightly the buckle to extract the spring blade sideways
- to screw back the slider anchor you will have to push aside the shoe
- sometimes the problem may be caused by an unbalanced push by the 2 blade springs
- I never had to swap a slider to correct current pick-up issues.
I hope this helps
Jean

My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by JohnjeanB
Offline LocoLynk  
#11 Posted : 22 June 2022 01:35:51(UTC)
LocoLynk

United States   
Joined: 01/09/2021(UTC)
Posts: 13
Location: California, San Diego
Jean, thanks yes I will take a closer look at those studs that should be providing current once the slider recess hits the studs closest to the frog.

Thanks for all the advice! Josh
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