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Offline Mr. Ron  
#1 Posted : 07 May 2022 06:27:04(UTC)
Mr. Ron

United States   
Joined: 05/07/2020(UTC)
Posts: 238
Location: Mississippi, Vancleave
I wonder why Marklin never made any trains of British prototypes. Was it prejudice towards German products?
Offline Alsterstreek  
#2 Posted : 07 May 2022 08:29:44(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,303
Location: Southwesternmost
There were articles 3073 (British warship class diesel loco) and 29550 (Harry Potter train set). Your question had been addressed in below 2017 thread:

https://www.marklin-user...ritish-Steam-Locomotives
Online kiwiAlan  
#3 Posted : 07 May 2022 13:24:29(UTC)
kiwiAlan

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Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 6,914
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Mr. Ron Go to Quoted Post
I wonder why Marklin never made any trains of British prototypes. Was it prejudice towards German products?


More a case of market penetration, I suspect largely caused by the size difference between OO and H0.

Offline Toosmall  
#4 Posted : 07 May 2022 13:53:51(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 231
Location: Sydney
Because the third rail is in the wrong position!
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Offline kimballthurlow  
#5 Posted : 08 May 2022 05:13:11(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,297
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Prior to the 1914-18 War, Märklin made a huge contribution to the English model train market in gauges 2, 1 and 0.
In England the models were marketed by firms such as Bassett Lowke and Gamages of London.
The models accurately portrayed British items in clockwork locomotives, goods and passenger carriages and lineside accessories.
Märklin were highly respected and competed with other continental manufacturers of British outline such as Karl Bub, Bing and Carette.

Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge.
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Offline rmsailor  
#6 Posted : 08 May 2022 10:01:39(UTC)
rmsailor

Scotland   
Joined: 20/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 549
Location: Kirkcaldy, Fife
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
Prior to the 1914-18 War, Märklin made a huge contribution to the English model train market in gauges 2, 1 and 0.
In England the models were marketed by firms such as Bassett Lowke and Gamages of London.
The models accurately portrayed British items in clockwork locomotives, goods and passenger carriages and lineside accessories.
Märklin were highly respected and competed with other continental manufacturers of British outline such as Karl Bub, Bing and Carette.

Kimball


After the first war there was a massive backlash against anything German which led directly to the rise and popularity of the original Hornby trains along with other makes.

Bob M.
Offline Mr. Ron  
#7 Posted : 08 May 2022 22:02:34(UTC)
Mr. Ron

United States   
Joined: 05/07/2020(UTC)
Posts: 238
Location: Mississippi, Vancleave
Originally Posted by: rmsailor Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
Prior to the 1914-18 War, Märklin made a huge contribution to the English model train market in gauges 2, 1 and 0.
In England the models were marketed by firms such as Bassett Lowke and Gamages of London.
The models accurately portrayed British items in clockwork locomotives, goods and passenger carriages and lineside accessories.
Märklin were highly respected and competed with other continental manufacturers of British outline such as Karl Bub, Bing and Carette.

Kimball


After the first war there was a massive backlash against anything German which led directly to the rise and popularity of the original Hornby trains along with other makes.

Bob M.



"Was it prejudice towards German products" My original thinking was accurate.
Offline rmsailor  
#8 Posted : 09 May 2022 17:15:08(UTC)
rmsailor

Scotland   
Joined: 20/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 549
Location: Kirkcaldy, Fife
Originally Posted by: Mr. Ron Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: rmsailor Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
Prior to the 1914-18 War, Märklin made a huge contribution to the English model train market in gauges 2, 1 and 0.
In England the models were marketed by firms such as Bassett Lowke and Gamages of London.
The models accurately portrayed British items in clockwork locomotives, goods and passenger carriages and lineside accessories.
Märklin were highly respected and competed with other continental manufacturers of British outline such as Karl Bub, Bing and Carette.

Kimball


After the first war there was a massive backlash against anything German which led directly to the rise and popularity of the original Hornby trains along with other makes.

Bob M.



"Was it prejudice towards German products" My original thinking was accurate.


The prejudice against German products was a point made by Chris and Julie Graebe in their introduction to their book on the history of the Hornby "O" gauge system in the Hornby Companion series (volume 5).

Bob M.,
Offline Mman  
#9 Posted : 09 May 2022 20:20:24(UTC)
Mman

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 219
Location: England, Guildford
Fleischmann did a very nice Warship in H0 with three different Bulleid coaches to go with it.
It helped that certainly in the case of the Märklin Warship it used the same chassis as the V200, but the body was not to the same standard as the later Fleischmann offering.
ChrisG
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Offline hennabm  
#10 Posted : 10 May 2022 15:26:15(UTC)
hennabm

Scotland   
Joined: 22/09/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,962
Location: Edinburgh,
Originally Posted by: Mman Go to Quoted Post
Fleischmann did a very nice Warship in H0 with three different Bulleid coaches to go with it.
It helped that certainly in the case of the Märklin Warship it used the same chassis as the V200, but the body was not to the same standard as the later Fleischmann offering.
ChrisG


The other issue was that M did not supply any rolling stock whatsoever to go with their Warship, somewhat limiting the market opportunities.

Mike

1957 - 1985 era
What's digital?
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Offline 60904  
#11 Posted : 12 June 2022 22:06:17(UTC)
60904

Germany   
Joined: 27/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 289
Fleischmann offered the Warship in 1:87 whereas Märklin was close to the British 1:76. So if somebody wanted a Warship from the continent for his Britsh coaches he would have probably bought the Märklin 3073 or 8373. More likely the Hamo version. The Fleischmann does not fit at all if you modell 1:76. There is simply no real 1:87 market for Märklin in Britain.
Greetings
Martin
Offline Mman  
#12 Posted : 12 June 2022 23:25:07(UTC)
Mman

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 219
Location: England, Guildford
It is said that Meccano Hornby Dublo was made to 1/76 was because they couldn’t fit a motor into anything smaller. Both HD and M railways have always had a mish mash of scales within the overall brackets of H0 or 00, eg short coach lengths. What were each company trying to achieve? Not scale models but sales of working, enjoyable toys. What are current manufacturers aiming for? Sales certainly but with more of an eye to true scale models to attract collectors as well as players.
I would happily have my Fleischmann Warship hauling its Bulleid coaches around a two rail 00 layout ( if I had one ) to transport me back to the Waterloo to Exeter trains of the 1960’s!
ChrisG
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Offline kimballthurlow  
#13 Posted : 12 June 2022 23:33:24(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,297
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted by: Mman Go to Quoted Post
... Both HD and M railways have always had a mish mash of scales within the overall brackets of H0 or 00, eg short coach lengths. What were each company trying to achieve? Not scale models but sales of working, enjoyable toys. ..
ChrisG


Hello Chris,

The use of scale in model trains is interesting.
My opinion agrees with yours.
Interestingly I have a booklet written in 1947 by Henry Greenly in which he states that OO scale is 1:75.
Fleischmann built their early HO models to a scale of 1:82.

regards
Kimball

HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge.
Offline Bryan  
#14 Posted : 13 June 2022 10:40:47(UTC)
Bryan

Australia   
Joined: 08/09/2010(UTC)
Posts: 146
Location: Bowral, NSW, Australia
The reason Hornby Dublo originally chose 1:76 pre WW2 in 1938 was that Marklin had already chosen this scale in 1936 and copied by Meccano. Marklin continued with 1:76 up until around 1952 when the European modelling standards were defined. Fleischmann started H0 from the outset as they introduced H0 around 1952. Interestingly because Rivarossi started in 1949, their original European models were 1:80. This continued to the end of Rivarossi Italian production with their Italian range, always 1:80. I have seen an article on Mr Rossi and he was asked why he chose 1:80 for Italian outline. He said that in 1949 there was no such thing as a model train, they were still considered toys and he picked the scale himself. Both Marklin and Trix, both different scales were studied by him to work out his standard. He also said all manufacturers had their own standards in 1949, and why 1952 is a very important date for present day European model railways. The date is thus the change from toy trains to model trains.

Just back to the point of market UK outline. Both Lima and Rivarossi tried H0 in the UK. Lima ended up changing to 1:76 to be viable. Rivarossi only did a Royal Scot in H0 which did not sell and never tried again. They were more successful with the N gauge Jubilee loco, marketed by Peco. So I expect Marklin may have seen these market failures and steered clear. It maybe different now as a lot of people are buying Marklin for its quality and the UK brands are no match for Marklin IMHO. You only have to compare Hornby's Zero One with Marklin's MFX, light years ahead in quality and functionality.

David
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Offline H0  
#15 Posted : 13 June 2022 12:32:22(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,602
Location: DE-NW
Märklin now have class 66 in H0 scale. They could offer that with UK liveries.
They could start making some freight cars that can be seen on both sides of the Channel to go with it.
They could make a new model of the Warship class, but this time with some coaches or freight cars to go with it.

Maybe sales in Continental Europe would be enough to compensate for those developments.
I don't think they sell enough US models in H0 gauge in the USA to justify those developments. But they sell many US models in Continental Europe.
Just thinking.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline H0  
#16 Posted : 13 June 2022 14:19:36(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,602
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Bryan Go to Quoted Post
Interestingly because Rivarossi started in 1949, their original European models were 1:80. This continued to the end of Rivarossi Italian production with their Italian range, always 1:80. I have seen an article on Mr Rossi and he was asked why he chose 1:80 for Italian outline.
Märklin had a 1:80 model in the 2010/2011 catalogue. It was a steam loco with the motor in the tender.
It seems mixing different scales on one layout is not such a big problem.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline PJMärklin  
#17 Posted : 13 June 2022 14:39:52(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 2,093
Location: Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Märklin had a 1:80 model in the 2010/2011 catalogue. It was a steam loco with the motor in the tender.
It seems mixing different scales on one layout is not such a big problem.


Hello Tom,

How interesting.Smile

Could I please trouble you to advise the Märklin model number for this item?

With Regards,

Philip
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Offline H0  
#18 Posted : 13 June 2022 14:57:03(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,602
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: PJMärklin Go to Quoted Post
Could I please trouble you to advise the Märklin model number for this item?
All Adler "H0" models are 1:80. They note this in the description of 26350, but not with 26351.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline mbarreto  
#19 Posted : 13 June 2022 17:02:31(UTC)
mbarreto

Portugal   
Joined: 18/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,011

Does someone know what is the scale of the Swiss 26472?
Mostly Märklin H0.


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Offline Mman  
#20 Posted : 13 June 2022 17:32:04(UTC)
Mman

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 219
Location: England, Guildford
Märklin’s website says 1:87, or does it generalize for all items?
ChrisG
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Offline mbarreto  
#21 Posted : 14 June 2022 11:48:11(UTC)
mbarreto

Portugal   
Joined: 18/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,011
Originally Posted by: Mman Go to Quoted Post
Märklin’s website says 1:87, or does it generalize for all items?
ChrisG



The Märklin site also says 1:87 for the Adler, so at least in some cases it doesn't match the real scale.
Mostly Märklin H0.


Offline H0  
#22 Posted : 14 June 2022 11:59:18(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,602
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Mman Go to Quoted Post
Märklin’s website says 1:87, or does it generalize for all items?
They show 1:87 for all items that run on H0 track. It's the scale of the track.
They have an "1:93,5" icon for "new longer length" coaches. They also use the "1:93,5" icon for coaches with length scales like 1:97 or 1:95.5.
They lie about the scales of the models - and they exactly know the scales they really use.
Sales are better if customers do not get too much information.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline 60904  
#23 Posted : 11 July 2022 21:55:28(UTC)
60904

Germany   
Joined: 27/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 289
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Märklin now have class 66 in H0 scale. They could offer that with UK liveries.
They could start making some freight cars that can be seen on both sides of the Channel to go with it.
They could make a new model of the Warship class, but this time with some coaches or freight cars to go with it.

Maybe sales in Continental Europe would be enough to compensate for those developments.
I don't think they sell enough US models in H0 gauge in the USA to justify those developments. But they sell many US models in Continental Europe.
Just thinking.


Hi, there is a market for Märklin US Models in Europe and elsewhere in the world. But there is no BR Märklin H0 market in the UK or the rest of Europe. To make a class 66 in 1:87 for Britain would be a waste of money and manpower. The British would like to have it in 1:76 propably.
Greetings
Martin
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Offline Mr. Ron  
#24 Posted : 25 July 2022 06:20:28(UTC)
Mr. Ron

United States   
Joined: 05/07/2020(UTC)
Posts: 238
Location: Mississippi, Vancleave
It is curious that Marklin has some U.S. prototypes (not many) but no U.K. The U.S. models are limited to a diesel and a few cars. I doubt that there are many U.S. modelers using Marklin products due to their limited inventory. since I have a Marklin layout, I'm going with European Prototypes although the setting is an American background. I guess you could call it modelers license. There really isn't any compatibility between European and U.K. trains other than track gauge. Model trains began as toys, so scale wasn't an issue. As soon as they started becoming scale models for hobbyists, an array of different scales battled for popularity. In the U.S. we had our battle for gauge but was finally standardized by the NMRA. Is there a similar organization in the U.K.? I don't know. Apparently, there is enough satisfaction with the OO gauge that it will stay the preferred gauge there. None of this really matters because Europeans will model European, U.K. will model U.K. and Americans will model American. As an American I model American, but if I wanted to model English trains, then I would go with OO gauge and buy English products. It may be interesting to note that there are many different standards throughout the world. Take electricity for example. There is 110V, 220V, 100V. even DC and other voltage systems. Each serves its own locale. There is no standardization throughout the world for anything. The worldwide Webb seems to be the only thing that can be called a worldwide standard.

What does all this have to do with the current topic? Nothing really. I just got off track which is standard for me but may be of interest to someone. I even forget what the original topic was, but at least you have presented some good information which may bring up other thoughts and ideas.
Offline H0  
#25 Posted : 25 July 2022 09:35:33(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,602
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Mr. Ron Go to Quoted Post
It is curious that Marklin has some U.S. prototypes (not many) but no U.K. The U.S. models are limited to a diesel and a few cars.
Yes, one diesel: FP 7 and Alco PA.
No steamers except Mikado, UP 4000 class, UP 3900 class, UP 844.
No electrics beside GG 1 and some prototypes.
Six different freight cars, some cabooses, some passenger coaches.

Anything I forgot?


Originally Posted by: Mr. Ron Go to Quoted Post
There is 110V, 220V, 100V. even DC and other voltage systems.
120 V in USA, 230 V in Europe, 100 V in Japan.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline PJMärklin  
#26 Posted : 25 July 2022 11:35:29(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 2,093
Location: Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post


120 V in USA, 230 V in Europe, 100 V in Japan.



230V in Europe and Australia & New ZealandBigGrin
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#27 Posted : 25 July 2022 16:15:23(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,303
Location: Southwesternmost
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mr. Ron Go to Quoted Post
It is curious that Marklin has some U.S. prototypes (not many) but no U.K. The U.S. models are limited to a diesel and a few cars.
Yes, one diesel: FP 7 and Alco PA.
No steamers except Mikado, UP 4000 class, UP 3900 class, UP 844.
No electrics beside GG 1 and some prototypes.
Six different freight cars, some cabooses, some passenger coaches.

Anything I forgot?


Ignoring z-scale products:

EMD F7 diesels (not FP7), both A and B units
Amtrak X995 electric loco
Texas & Western three-axle (fantasy) steamer from 2921/2922 start set

Incomplete list of H0 scale US rolling stock - click on links under US flag: http://www.bahn.hfkern.d...aerklin_Wagen/Menue.html
Offline Mr. Ron  
#28 Posted : 25 July 2022 18:28:18(UTC)
Mr. Ron

United States   
Joined: 05/07/2020(UTC)
Posts: 238
Location: Mississippi, Vancleave
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mr. Ron Go to Quoted Post
It is curious that Marklin has some U.S. prototypes (not many) but no U.K. The U.S. models are limited to a diesel and a few cars.
Yes, one diesel: FP 7 and Alco PA.
No steamers except Mikado, UP 4000 class, UP 3900 class, UP 844.
No electrics beside GG 1 and some prototypes.
Six different freight cars, some cabooses, some passenger coaches.

Anything I forgot?


Originally Posted by: Mr. Ron Go to Quoted Post
There is 110V, 220V, 100V. even DC and other voltage systems.
120 V in USA, 230 V in Europe, 100 V in Japan.


Mexico uses 127/60Hz, many middle east countries use 240/50Hz. I didn't know Marklin made a GGi. and yes, I now recall they make a big boy. I didn't know about a Mikado or the Alco PA.

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