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Offline pmgsr  
#1 Posted : 28 May 2022 17:49:12(UTC)
pmgsr


Joined: 01/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 200
Location: Lisbon, Lisbon

Hi there,

I hope someone can help me with my configuration and the setup of a Marklin 7286 turntable (10y) with a recently bought 7687 digital retrofit kit in ebay and CS1 with Rocrail.
I connected the kit with the turntable. Have power on tracks but can't seem to move the turntable. Before that it worked fine with the conventional command.

I setup the turntable with address 225, type ttdec and Protocol Motorola.
Do i need to adjust some other setting, even for getting to the next track?

I have a Rocrail version of last week and my CS1 obviously got the last fw from Marklin, a decade ago! ... but it's working with everything in Rocrail.

Thanks.
Pedro.
Pedro Rosa.
Linda-a-Velha / Lisbon, Portugal.
My Layout (Marklin, C-Track, Digital)
Offline BenP  
#2 Posted : 28 May 2022 19:19:47(UTC)
BenP

United States   
Joined: 04/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 344
Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
Originally Posted by: pmgsr Go to Quoted Post

Hi there,

I hope someone can help me with my configuration and the setup of a Marklin 7286 turntable (10y) with a recently bought 7687 digital retrofit kit in ebay and CS1 with Rocrail.
I connected the kit with the turntable. Have power on tracks but can't seem to move the turntable. Before that it worked fine with the conventional command.

I setup the turntable with address 225, type ttdec and Protocol Motorola.
Do i need to adjust some other setting, even for getting to the next track?

I have a Rocrail version of last week and my CS1 obviously got the last fw from Marklin, a decade ago! ... but it's working with everything in Rocrail.

Thanks.
Pedro.


The motor on my old turntable won't work with digital AC power. It requires standard AC, which I feed seperately so the unit can rotate with k84 decoder and CS3+. See my older post on this elsewhere.
Digital M (+ some K) track layout with mostly vintage rolling stock and accessories, and small Z scale layout.
https://youtube.com/play...0kgVYbh0CeDTF-bYXoD_2-V9
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Offline JohnjeanB  
#3 Posted : 29 May 2022 11:14:40(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,084
Location: Paris, France
Originally Posted by: pmgsr Go to Quoted Post

I hope someone can help me with my configuration and the setup of a Marklin 7286 turntable (10y) with a recently bought 7687 digital retrofit kit in ebay and CS1 with Rocrail.
I connected the kit with the turntable. Have power on tracks but can't seem to move the turntable. Before that it worked fine with the conventional command.

I setup the turntable with address 225, type ttdec and Protocol Motorola.
Do i need to adjust some other setting, even for getting to the next track?

I have a Rocrail version of last week and my CS1 obviously got the last fw from Marklin, a decade ago! ... but it's working with everything in Rocrail.

Thanks.
Pedro.

Hi Pedro
A 7286 user here but with a different decoder (DSD2010) a CS3 and Rocrail.
No you don't need to use a different setting to drive your decoder (if it works fine)
If the 7286 was a 2nd hand, open the case and check the soldering bridges (It is the unit configuration)
On the Märklin website I could only find the 7287 manual here https://static.maerklin....876e4b34bc1574773383.pdf
So IMO using address 225 is very fine
In Rocrail you have to decide or set:
- if the bridge block is embedded or not (not in my case). This means that somewhere on your plan, you need to add a block named DS1 with its one sensor in your case
TT General.png
- the Turntable (TT) interface looks like this
TT Interface.png
One difference is the sensors in the red frame. You should use only sensor 1
The other is the type (TTDEC in your case, instead of dsd2010)

- the TT track definition looks like this
TT TrackDefinition.png
The key is to decide where is your Track 0 on your TT (this will be the reference for RR). RR order in COUNTERCLOCKWISE
Also key is, for each line to make a correspondance between the track # (from 0 to 47) and the order to be sent to your decoder 7687
The position sensor can be skipped with a simplified decoder

One important thing to remember is that the command is incremental. Meaning: for the first use the position must be manually set on the bridge (pushing the black lever towards the center of the bridge and rotating the bridge to its RR position.
This is the little I know about using a 7286 TT with Rocrail
Here is mine in total automatic operation by Rocrail

I hope this helps
Cheers
Jean
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Offline JohnjeanB  
#4 Posted : 29 May 2022 18:07:56(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,084
Location: Paris, France
Hi Ben

Originally Posted by: BenP Go to Quoted Post
The motor on my old turntable won't work with digital AC power. It requires standard AC, which I feed seperately so the unit can rotate with k84 decoder and CS3 .See my older post on this elsewhere.

The 7286 turntable was never meant to be fed by digital power.
With its control panel, the AC current is converted into DC current and the slider determines rotation direction and its flat cable / connector allows the direct use of some decoders like the 7687 and the DSD2010.
Here is the user's manual.
Marklin 7286 Users manual.pdf (1,712kb) downloaded 36 time(s).
cheers
Jean





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Offline pmgsr  
#5 Posted : 29 May 2022 22:48:48(UTC)
pmgsr


Joined: 01/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 200
Location: Lisbon, Lisbon
Thanks Jean for your wonderful reply.
I've seen other topics from you about the turnout.

Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post

Hi Pedro
A 7286 user here but with a different decoder (DSD2010) a CS3 and Rocrail.
No you don't need to use a different setting to drive your decoder (if it works fine)
If the 7286 was a 2nd hand, open the case and check the soldering bridges (It is the unit configuration)
On the Märklin website I could only find the 7287 manual here https://static.maerklin....876e4b34bc1574773383.pdf
So IMO using address 225 is very fine


In the meanwhile i was able to start the programming with an old 6021 + 6040 ((separated from the layout, so without CS1 and without Rocrail).
I'm able to program it but after ending the program the turntable doens't move anymore, nor with the step or turn keys nor with the number of the memories.
This is a different problema. I followed, several times, the manual and i just can't use it after programming.
So Jean i haven't tested the TT again in Rocrail because it must work outside Rocrail first.
It can be the 7687... but it's strange that the programming is done ok (i think!) and afterwards i can't use it.

Pedro.
Pedro Rosa.
Linda-a-Velha / Lisbon, Portugal.
My Layout (Marklin, C-Track, Digital)
Offline pmgsr  
#6 Posted : 29 May 2022 22:50:45(UTC)
pmgsr


Joined: 01/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 200
Location: Lisbon, Lisbon
Originally Posted by: BenP Go to Quoted Post

The motor on my old turntable won't work with digital AC power. It requires standard AC, which I feed seperately so the unit can rotate with k84 decoder and CS3+. See my older post on this elsewhere.


Thanks. In the meantime i was able, at least, to start working with it but only the programming part and with an old 6021+6040.

Pedro.
Pedro Rosa.
Linda-a-Velha / Lisbon, Portugal.
My Layout (Marklin, C-Track, Digital)
Offline kiwiAlan  
#7 Posted : 30 May 2022 01:15:18(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: pmgsr Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: BenP Go to Quoted Post

The motor on my old turntable won't work with digital AC power. It requires standard AC, which I feed seperately so the unit can rotate with k84 decoder and CS3+. See my older post on this elsewhere.


Thanks. In the meantime i was able, at least, to start working with it but only the programming part and with an old 6021+6040.

Pedro.


It could be that the 7687 is faulty and won't take programming - maybe that is why it was sold. I know there were circumstances where these were reported to lose their programming. I don't know how it saves its configuration.

It may be better to get an LDT TT-DEC which is functionally equivalent to the 7687 as a minimum, and has some extra features as well. If you are handy building electronics then it can also be obtained as a kit (second item on this page, fully built up is third item). The kit requires the plastic body to be purchased seperately.
Offline Ross  
#8 Posted : 30 May 2022 08:20:27(UTC)
Ross

Australia   
Joined: 25/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 868
Location: Sydney, NSW
Hi Pedro,

What you describe could be this problem.

Please read my article 7687 firmware workaround

This page is and extract from my article 7686 Turntable Programming.

Did you check for diodes for the motor connections on the bridge?
Ross
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Offline pmgsr  
#9 Posted : 30 May 2022 11:52:42(UTC)
pmgsr


Joined: 01/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 200
Location: Lisbon, Lisbon
Originally Posted by: Ross Go to Quoted Post
Hi Pedro,
What you describe could be this problem.

Please read my article 7687 firmware workaround

This page is and extract from my article 7686 Turntable Programming.

Did you check for diodes for the motor connections on the bridge?


Thanks Ross, will try that when i get home.

Pedro.
Pedro Rosa.
Linda-a-Velha / Lisbon, Portugal.
My Layout (Marklin, C-Track, Digital)
Offline JohnjeanB  
#10 Posted : 30 May 2022 11:57:31(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,084
Location: Paris, France
Hi Pedro
I think that you most probably have a programming sequence issue.
I don't believe that the description / solution by Ross is applicable if your TT never turns after programming it.

So my questions:
- have you connected lamps to the outputs Rt (Red) Gn (Green) Ge (Yellow) and do they behave as per the manual when you enter the programming mode (less than 5 seconds after power up without ANY other command)?
- is the yellow light blinking (showing the start of programming mode)?
- when you push the button "end" (end of programming mode) the TT is supposed to return to track 1 Does it? Does the yellow light remains ON?

Chances are there is a mix with buttons and digital addresses.
Here are the addresses
- END = 225 red
- PROG = 225 green
- CLEAR = 226 red
- TURN = 226 green
- STEP = 227 red next track to left
- STEP = 227 green next track to right
- O = 228 red Rotation to the left
- O = 228 green Rotation to the right


These lights monitor the programming and the operation of the turntable:
• Yellow blinks: Ready for programming, position of Track 1 changed if desired
• Yellow on: Programming mode
• Red on: Turntable deck in motion
• Green on: Track connection reached
• Red/yellow blinks: Problem

What lights do you observe?
Cheers
Jean

Cheers
Jean
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Offline pmgsr  
#11 Posted : 30 May 2022 15:52:34(UTC)
pmgsr


Joined: 01/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 200
Location: Lisbon, Lisbon

Jean,

Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi Pedro
I think that you most probably have a programming sequence issue.
I don't believe that the description / solution by Ross is applicable if your TT never turns after programming it.


One never knows. sometimes we are doing something wrong and are not able to correct it easily. However i made the programming sequence several times. The TT makes the warning bips when starting the programming, accepts the steps < > when programming the tracks and accepts the "end" of programming with the expected beeps. Afterwards it doesn't move, nor with the memories (numbers), nor with Turn or Steps.
I'll try Ross solution this evening.

Pedro.
Pedro Rosa.
Linda-a-Velha / Lisbon, Portugal.
My Layout (Marklin, C-Track, Digital)
Offline blid  
#12 Posted : 30 May 2022 17:34:03(UTC)
blid

Sweden   
Joined: 02/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 228
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
To get the programming of my TT to work, I had to add a command, like “Step”, immediately before ”End”. Not the “End” directly after the last input (as the manual says). It was a very long time ago so I don’t remember how it behaved without the extra cammand.
OneGauge Marklin and MTH, ESU ECoS 2.1 on LGB tracks. MTH 3-rail 0-gauge, DCS on GarGraves tracks. Z: Rokuhan tracks, analog or DCC+TC Gold.
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Offline Ross  
#13 Posted : 31 May 2022 00:30:43(UTC)
Ross

Australia   
Joined: 25/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 868
Location: Sydney, NSW
Hi Pedro,

The problem you describe is the same as others have had and the fix seemed to reset the decoder to operating status.

Hopefully you will have the same success.

Read my article on programming the turntable it may be of help.
Ross
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Offline Ross  
#14 Posted : 31 May 2022 00:35:57(UTC)
Ross

Australia   
Joined: 25/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 868
Location: Sydney, NSW
Hi Jean,

This is a known issue with the 7687 decoder
Hopefully once Pedro tries this fix we will know.


Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi Pedro
I think that you most probably have a programming sequence issue.
I don't believe that the description / solution by Ross is applicable if your TT never turns after programming it.


Cheers
Jean

Edited by user 31 May 2022 03:56:06(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Ross
Offline pmgsr  
#15 Posted : 31 May 2022 12:37:06(UTC)
pmgsr


Joined: 01/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 200
Location: Lisbon, Lisbon
Thank you very much for all the help.
Unfortunally @Ross the fix is not working. There is no feedback from the TT after aplying the Prog (bip sounds) -> 24 -> End. Nothing happens, nothing moves with step/turn.

@Jean, i have no leds connected to the decoder but when i start the programming in the first 5 seconds, it beeps. Then i go to position 1 and hit clear and then go thru the needed steps for positioning the other tracks, hiting input at each one. As i see on the manual, input is the same as prog (the initial key for programming in the first 5 seconds). At the end i hit "end" and the TT goes back to the first position, as expected. Then no more moves with step/turn or memories.

I tried also what @blid wrote, about hitting step before ending the programming. Also nothing after going back to the first position.

I'm doing this with the old control unit and a keyboard (15).

TT is ok with the original command.

EDIT: As i'm still testing, i'm not connecting a second transformer to the L connector, i'm just using the red output from the Control Unit to power the TT. Altought it's not adviced in the normal use, i think that for testing purposes it's the same. Am i wrong?
Like seen on this page:

diagram
Pedro Rosa.
Linda-a-Velha / Lisbon, Portugal.
My Layout (Marklin, C-Track, Digital)
Offline pmgsr  
#16 Posted : 31 May 2022 13:16:47(UTC)
pmgsr


Joined: 01/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 200
Location: Lisbon, Lisbon
After putting the image on the previous post, and remembering the previous post from @BenP, i connected, with the same transformer, the L connector in the decoder directly to the (yellow) output in transformer. It works.
I'm trully sorry for wasting everybody time but i sinceraly thought that the image was correct and it could work.
If i tried at the beggining with another transformer, it should have worked.

So @BenP was right from the beggining. Thanks.
Pedro Rosa.
Linda-a-Velha / Lisbon, Portugal.
My Layout (Marklin, C-Track, Digital)
Offline Ross  
#17 Posted : 01 June 2022 01:11:04(UTC)
Ross

Australia   
Joined: 25/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 868
Location: Sydney, NSW
Hi Pedro,

Good to know you have sorted the operation of the turntable out, well done.

Having well thought out questions with accurate information always helps people trying to give the correct answers.

For you and others the wiring information for the different turntable decoders is on pages 12-14 of my article below

7686 and 7687 turntable setup

You may find other tips that will help operating your turntable.


Originally Posted by: pmgsr Go to Quoted Post
After putting the image on the previous post, and remembering the previous post from @BenP, i connected, with the same transformer, the L connector in the decoder directly to the (yellow) output in transformer. It works.
I'm trully sorry for wasting everybody time but i sinceraly thought that the image was correct and it could work.
If i tried at the beggining with another transformer, it should have worked.

So @BenP was right from the beggining. Thanks.


Ross
Offline pmgsr  
#18 Posted : 01 June 2022 15:49:12(UTC)
pmgsr


Joined: 01/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 200
Location: Lisbon, Lisbon
Originally Posted by: Ross Go to Quoted Post
Hi Pedro,
Good to know you have sorted the operation of the turntable out, well done.
Having well thought out questions with accurate information always helps people trying to give the correct answers.
For you and others the wiring information for the different turntable decoders is on pages 12-14 of my article below
7686 and 7687 turntable setup


Thanks Ross, your documentation is great.
Pedro Rosa.
Linda-a-Velha / Lisbon, Portugal.
My Layout (Marklin, C-Track, Digital)
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Offline BenP  
#19 Posted : 01 June 2022 22:17:58(UTC)
BenP

United States   
Joined: 04/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 344
Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
Originally Posted by: pmgsr Go to Quoted Post
After putting the image on the previous post, and remembering the previous post from @BenP, i connected, with the same transformer, the L connector in the decoder directly to the (yellow) output in transformer. It works.
I'm trully sorry for wasting everybody time but i sinceraly thought that the image was correct and it could work.
If i tried at the beggining with another transformer, it should have worked.

So @BenP was right from the beggining. Thanks.


You're welcome.
I don't use the old turntable much in my current layout, except as track loop to change ride direction. Note that old railroad crossing motors also use analog AC, which can be connected to the same (white) transformer as the turntable (yellow+common ground).
20220504_093858.jpg
Digital M (+ some K) track layout with mostly vintage rolling stock and accessories, and small Z scale layout.
https://youtube.com/play...0kgVYbh0CeDTF-bYXoD_2-V9
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by BenP
Offline pmgsr  
#20 Posted : 04 June 2022 23:46:41(UTC)
pmgsr


Joined: 01/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 200
Location: Lisbon, Lisbon
I have already the TT working with the 7687 in my layout with a CS1 (programmed in a 6021/6040 before, however i think that i should be able to program it on the CS1 with some work.
I'm now trying to make a correct Rocrail configuration.

Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post

In Rocrail you have to decide or set:
- if the bridge block is embedded or not (not in my case). This means that somewhere on your plan, you need to add a block named DS1 with its one sensor in your case


I'm not understanding exactly what this means. The wiki is not very clear also. If i use the bridge with a s88 (connected to one of the B of the decoder) that means ia have an embebed block, am i right?


Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post

The key is to decide where is your Track 0 on your TT (this will be the reference for RR). RR order in COUNTERCLOCKWISE
Also key is, for each line to make a correspondance between the track # (from 0 to 47) and the order to be sent to your decoder 7687
The position sensor can be skipped with a simplified decoder
One important thing to remember is that the command is incremental. Meaning: for the first use the position must be manually set on the bridge (pushing the black lever towards the center of the bridge and rotating the bridge to its RR position.
This is the little I know about using a 7286 TT with Rocrail


In the TT i have the tracks programmed, now in rocrail i have to adjust those memories to the position of the tracks in the track layout by using the TT -> Tracks and them fill in the "decoder track" for each track?

Thanks Jean.
Pedro.
Pedro Rosa.
Linda-a-Velha / Lisbon, Portugal.
My Layout (Marklin, C-Track, Digital)
Offline JohnjeanB  
#21 Posted : 05 June 2022 00:14:48(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,084
Location: Paris, France
Hi Pedro

Embedded block (in the TT)
When you right click on your TT symbol, in "general" tab on center left you don't click on "embedded block"
RR wiki says "The turntable itself act like a block object and does not need an external bridge block."
So I selected to have a block represented separately with its sensors.

You wrote "in the TT i have the tracks programmed, now in rocrail i have to adjust those memories to the position of the tracks in the track layout by using the TT -> Tracks and them fill in the "decoder track" for each track?"
I don't know much your decoder but what is key is:
- to pick a track 0 (your choice) and then going counter clock wise, you have tracks from 0 to 47
- what RR wants to know is what code your TT decoder is expecting for it to drive the TT to T1...T47
- For RR to understand and get this info, you must fill the Track table" and especially the row "decoder track"

Lets take an example track 1 is the first track for your decoder (RR calls it Track 0)
Because you are not using all the tracks the next used track for your decoder is Track 2 but it is located on Track6 of you physical TT , so you write on line 6, in the field "decoder track" the value 2 (it is track 2 for your decoder) and so forth for all tracks you use (generally much less than the 48 positions.
I hope this helps
Jean





Offline pmgsr  
#22 Posted : 05 June 2022 01:43:55(UTC)
pmgsr


Joined: 01/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 200
Location: Lisbon, Lisbon
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi Pedro
You wrote "in the TT i have the tracks programmed, now in rocrail i have to adjust those memories to the position of the tracks in the track layout by using the TT -> Tracks and them fill in the "decoder track" for each track?"
I don't know much your decoder but what is key is:
- to pick a track 0 (your choice) and then going counter clock wise, you have tracks from 0 to 47
- what RR wants to know is what code your TT decoder is expecting for it to drive the TT to T1...T47
- For RR to understand and get this info, you must fill the Track table" and especially the row "decoder track"

Lets take an example track 1 is the first track for your decoder (RR calls it Track 0)
Because you are not using all the tracks the next used track for your decoder is Track 2 but it is located on Track6 of you physical TT , so you write on line 6, in the field "decoder track" the value 2 (it is track 2 for your decoder) and so forth for all tracks you use (generally much less than the 48 positions.
I hope this helps
Jean


Yes, that's what i thought, make a "map" beetween the configuration and the Rocrail Turntable symbol.
I think that it's becoming functional (block names temporary, they have the original decoder address and the Rocrail TT position). Sensors still missing.

UserPostedImage

Configuration:

TT Config #1

TT Config #2
Pedro Rosa.
Linda-a-Velha / Lisbon, Portugal.
My Layout (Marklin, C-Track, Digital)
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