Welcome to the forum   
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

2 Pages<12
Share
Options
View
Go to last post in this topic Go to first unread post in this topic
Offline river6109  
#51 Posted : 09 December 2011 10:32:02(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,925
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Fireguy,

I'm glad you have followed our advise and good luck with your fathers Marklin collection and I hope you have many more joyfull moments when everything is up and running and I'm sure we will hear more from you in the near future.

Stay tuned.
If I don't hear from you before the festive season, I wish you and all your friends and relatives a Happy Christmas and a prosperous New Year

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by river6109
Offline Webmaster  
#52 Posted : 09 December 2011 21:15:08(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,142
Wonderful collection...ThumpUp
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Webmaster
Offline Goofy  
#53 Posted : 10 December 2011 07:39:36(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,539
Originally Posted by: Fireguy911 Go to Quoted Post
Good day everyone.

I inherited my dad's Marklin train collection. He had it all set up many years ago and running flawlessly. There is non digital and digital, all new or like new in condition. I should have paid more attention as to how he had it all set up because today, even though I have Marklin manuals to follow to set this digital equipment up, all I get is a little noise in the new digital "test" engines on my test track. I must be doing something wrong because he had it all working fine. These is the digital equipment I have:
2 Transformers (6002), 1 Booster (6015), 2 Keyboards (6040), 1 Central Unit (6020), 1 Control 80 (6035), 1 Control 80f (6036), 1 Control Unit (6021), 1 Interface (6050), 1 Memory (6043). No computers were ever used. He also used an old transformer (the old blue 110V transformers) somehow connected to this digital equipment. Like I said, he had it all working so very well, three levels of tracks in half a basement and running many trains. I remember hearing many switches triggering all at once and trains would go through no problems at all.

For my test track I tried 2 combinations.

1: Transformer to Central Unit to track. Only causes a slight momentary hum in the engine then nothing. No lights worked.

2: Transformer to Central Unit with Control 80 and control 80F connected to the left. Same results when I enter the engine's address.

These engines work on non digital track and all are like new.

Any ideas ?

For those who wish to see my train collection, it is posted on "http://www.collectorsweekly.com/user/renoir911"

I look forward to your assistance.
I do have a Marklin z scale set up (shown on Collectors Weekly).
I have the space and would like to set up a HO layout but need to master this digital equipment first.

Wishing you a great day.

Fireguy
ren7039@gmail.com



Hi and welcome to the worlds best forum forever!
Now about yours digital:
1.It´s not neccesary to twin cables by connecting to the tracks from 6021.I use about 0,25-0,5 mm (AWG 22-24) which is enough for maximum outputload at 2,5 Amps.
2.Never ever use old blue transformer with digitalsystem!!!Just new transformer like 6002.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline cookee_nz  
#54 Posted : 10 December 2011 11:23:11(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,772
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Fireguy911 Go to Quoted Post
Good day everyone.



Hi and welcome to the worlds best forum forever!
Now about yours digital:
1.It´s not neccesary to twin cables by connecting to the tracks from 6021.I use about 0,25-0,5 mm (AWG 22-24) which is enough for maximum outputload at 2,5 Amps.
2.Never ever use old blue transformer with digitalsystem!!!Just new transformer like 6002.


Hi Goofy,

I never said it was 'necessary', just that it looked tidy, but you would have to agree that the thicker the wire (within reason), the better for avoiding any voltage drop between the controller and the layout. I always felt that a single thin wire sort of looked 'flimsy', and IMHO the twisted wires are very tidy - but that is personal preference only. Each to his own of course BigGrin

I think we are all largely agreed that the newer transformers are preferable if you have one, but not everyone does. To the best of my knowledge, I have never read a statement from Marklin stating not to use the older Blue trafos. If you purchased a new Blue (plastic case) trafo in the early 80's or even the later 70's, and it is of a suitable power rating for the needs of your layout, why replace it before you need to? Internally there is nothing fancy.

Don't forget that Delta (a subset of Digital) is almost always shown in the catalogues running off a Blue Trafo, and the basic Digital technology used is still the same.

It's largely an academic discussion now anyway because the newer generation Digital controllers already come with proprietary power supplies, problem solved.

Cheers

Cookee
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
Offline H0  
#55 Posted : 10 December 2011 18:27:37(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,525
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: cookee_nz Go to Quoted Post
To the best of my knowledge, I have never read a statement from Marklin stating not to use the older Blue trafos.
Blue transformers were made for 110 V, 220 V, or 240 V. In every manual for any recent loco they state that you must use transformers suitable for your mains voltage (which is 120 V in the USA or 230 V in Europe - between the lines this means "Do not use blue transformers").

I like this one from the 37921 manual (makes no sense, but sounds funny):
"Under no circumstances should transformers rated for an input of 220 volts be connected to the American 110 volt household current system."

The corrected version from the 37774 manual:
"Use only transformers rated for your local household power.
Do not under any circumstances use transformers rated for 220 volts or 110 volts." (you see: don't use old blue transformers)
"Possible operating systems: 6646/6647 Märklin Transformer, Märklin Delta, Märklin Digital, Märklin Systems." (6646/6647 are allowed, but not the blue ones)

Originally Posted by: cookee_nz Go to Quoted Post
It's largely an academic discussion now anyway because the newer generation Digital controllers already come with proprietary power supplies, problem solved.
The reversing voltage of old transformers can be harmful to new digital decoders.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline cookee_nz  
#56 Posted : 11 December 2011 01:14:56(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,772
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: cookee_nz Go to Quoted Post
To the best of my knowledge, I have never read a statement from Marklin stating not to use the older Blue trafos.
Blue transformers were made for 110 V, 220 V, or 240 V. In every manual for any recent loco they state that you must use transformers suitable for your mains voltage (which is 120 V in the USA or 230 V in Europe - between the lines this means "Do not use blue transformers").

I like this one from the 37921 manual (makes no sense, but sounds funny):
"Under no circumstances should transformers rated for an input of 220 volts be connected to the American 110 volt household current system."

The corrected version from the 37774 manual:
"Use only transformers rated for your local household power.
Do not under any circumstances use transformers rated for 220 volts or 110 volts." (you see: don't use old blue transformers)
"Possible operating systems: 6646/6647 Märklin Transformer, Märklin Delta, Märklin Digital, Märklin Systems." (6646/6647 are allowed, but not the blue ones)

Originally Posted by: cookee_nz Go to Quoted Post
It's largely an academic discussion now anyway because the newer generation Digital controllers already come with proprietary power supplies, problem solved.
The reversing voltage of old transformers can be harmful to new digital decoders.


Hi Tom, Goofy, and others watching this, sorry I should have been more clear in the statement I was making, it grew from a slightly different discussion and may have become wider than I intended. I'm still not following the point about not using Blue trafo's. WHAT??? is the difference between a 220v BLUE Trafo and a 220v WHITE Trafo? The colour, that is all. Of course you don't plug a 110v trafo into 220v? (BANG!), or vice-versa 220v Trafo from 110v supply (no bang, just no operation either as this thread proved).

And I have to clarify I was not specifically talking about running Digital Loco's off a Blue Trafo, what I meant was POWERING a 6021, Control 80, Intellibox etc from the direct AC uncontrolled output (Brown/Yellow) of a Blue Trafo.

But..., in saying that, right from the start Marklin have always said you could run your new Digital loco's from your Analogue controller with the idea that sometime down the track you might want to convert to Digital Control so why not start with the Loco's when you purchase new ones?

You make a valid point Tom about the current Trafo's, but looking at the 2010 catalogue, it appears they now only offer 6646 & 6647, and it seems, no transformer-only version. But these two units are now only rated at 32va output, a considerable drop from the 52va of the 6002.

And Marklin themselves don't help the situation with their (once-again) re-using of item codes. I have a 6002 52va Trafo. It is marked as a Primary of 220v. In the 2000 catalogue for example, the 6002 is now referred to as having a 230v primary. Probably as much as anything to fall mid-range within the international voltages that range anywhere from 220v to 240v. But really, they should have change the code at that time, either a new number or a suffix like 6002B.

But I note also on the same page of that 2000 cat (p313), they have controller 6646 rated at 120VAC USA Primary, and Trafo 6001 rated at 110VAC USA Primary so even then there was confusion.

I have just taken a measurement of the household AC supply, it reads 245VAC in metropolitan Melbourne. Unfortunately it's with a cheaper hobby multimeter so I will have to wait until Nadine and the girls get back so I can do the same check with my professional Fluke Meter from my toolkit (it's in the car). That 245VAC Primary equates to 18.5v at the Secondary so yes it's about 15% higher. Perhaps this should be a new thread for other members to take their measurements of their various controllers, their current household voltage and the output, it might make for interesting analysis.

At the end of the day, each to their own. We are all friends here. I will continue to use my Blue (suitably-rated) Trafo if the need requires and because it suits me.

Of course I would strongly encourage anyone starting or re-starting with this hobby to try wherever possible to use the latest available power units and controllers. Particularly if they are not electrically-minded. For then, they have peace-of-mind and don't have to worry.

For others of us that have been in the hobby for a longer time, and perhaps have greater faith in the generally robust design of Marklin products, and if we are more comfortable with electrical concepts, there is much greater scope and flexibility available.

It's a good debate from which we shall all learn something I'm sure.

Cheers to all

Cookee
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
Offline H0  
#57 Posted : 11 December 2011 08:30:31(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,525
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: cookee_nz Go to Quoted Post
And I have to clarify I was not specifically talking about running Digital Loco's off a Blue Trafo, what I meant was POWERING a 6021, Control 80, Intellibox etc from the direct AC uncontrolled output (Brown/Yellow) of a Blue Trafo.
I wouldn't put a Euro 400 controller at risk just to save Euro 40 through 80 for a new transformer.
If the voltage is 15 % higher, the wattage of some devices will be 30 % higher, with light bulbs it's a little bit less than that. You'll have to replace light bulbs more often, other devices could suffer as well.

It makes a difference where you live: 240 V transformers in the UK used with 230 V should be no problem (but it would be interesting to see measured output voltages) while 220 V transformers in the rest of Europe used with 230 V is on the risky side.

AFAIK there were no grey transformers for 220 V but there were some blue ones for 230 V. The colour doesn't make them dangerous - but be careful if they have a metal cover.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Mark5  
#58 Posted : 30 April 2022 16:24:52(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,286
Location: Canada
I read through this thread with great interest. Has there been any discussion on the forum about using appropriate step up step down trafos for using Euro equipment in North America? I recall at one point a comment that disparaged its use. I am currently using one here in Canada that we actually got in Portugal when living there and can be changed to either step up or step down. I have had no issues when using it with my 6021, that is with white trafo 220 or 230 (I will have to check later) with step up trafo option to step up from 120/110 to 220/230 ... will have to check the exact numbers since this has now been clarified to me in this thread. I had never understood why some had either 110 or 120 and the same for the 220 or 230 difference. I can't imagine how difficult it would be to get Europeans to agree on using the same voltage when they can't even agree on which way is best to eat eggs for breakfast. Smile

The only time I fried a decoder was in my initial phase of running my first lovely digital Kreigslok insider edition which was one of my first digital loks to try out in conventional operation. I used the old metal Marklin re-railers while the track still had some power. That was probably my biggest lesson in stupidity wrt to the sensitivity of MMR electronics and now the poor thing is a shelf-queen. They use the C-sine engines that apparently has unique decoders and so not easily replaced oneself. I have yet to revisit the problem for correction but when contacting Marklin at the time I recall that the cost of repair was the same as the cost of the lok. So matching power and protecting decoders is a concern.
DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1955-65, fan of V200, electrics and steam... so hard to narrow down...
...signaling systems, yard traffic and shunting, Sommerfeldt catenary,
and station architecture (esp. stations from 1920-70).
In process: a new modular layout, track planning and drawing benchwork.
Email anytime or chat live: https://discord.gg/jAEKyTWQPQ
Offline PeFu  
#59 Posted : 30 April 2022 17:37:33(UTC)
PeFu

Sweden   
Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC)
Posts: 966
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post
I had never understood why some had either 110 or 120 and the same for the 220 or 230 difference. I can't imagine how difficult it would be to get Europeans to agree on using the same voltage when they can't even agree on which way is best to eat eggs for breakfast. Smile

Before the EU, UK was on 240 V and most of Europe on 220 V. The compromise agreed in the EU is now 230 V.

Smile
Inspired by Swiss railways SBB and BLS | C and K track | CS2 | TrainController Gold V9
Youtube Channel for the Andreasburg-Mattiasberg layout
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by PeFu
Offline kiwiAlan  
#60 Posted : 30 April 2022 18:30:13(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 6,813
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: PeFu Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post
I had never understood why some had either 110 or 120 and the same for the 220 or 230 difference. I can't imagine how difficult it would be to get Europeans to agree on using the same voltage when they can't even agree on which way is best to eat eggs for breakfast. Smile

Before the EU, UK was on 240 V and most of Europe on 220 V. The compromise agreed in the EU is now 230 V.

Smile


It was a bit the same in Australia, which had 230V, 240V and 250V, depending which state you were in. However my understanding is the international standard is now 230V +/- a wider percentage (I think it is 20%) than the narrower percentage that it used to be, so they are all within the nominal 230V.

In practice there is quite a variation on the voltage anyway, due to loading varying as heaters and electric stoves are turned on and off, along with TVs and other appliances. The aim of the supply authorities is to keep the mains frequency within a very close tolerance (although this does also vary with loading) as this can have a significant effect of other things run off the mains.

thanks 1 user liked this useful post by kiwiAlan
Offline H0  
#61 Posted : 01 May 2022 17:57:14(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,525
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post
The only time I fried a decoder was in my initial phase of running my first lovely digital Kreigslok insider edition which was one of my first digital loks to try out in conventional operation. I used the old metal Marklin re-railers while the track still had some power. That was probably my biggest lesson in stupidity wrt to the sensitivity of MMR electronics and now the poor thing is a shelf-queen. They use the C-sine engines that apparently has unique decoders and so not easily replaced oneself.
I guess you refer to the BR 42.90. That was no Kriegslok, but a post-war DB loco. Replacing the decoder should be possible using third-party components.
Replacing the motor is another option.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by H0
Offline Mark5  
#62 Posted : 05 May 2022 05:39:29(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,286
Location: Canada
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post
The only time I fried a decoder was in my initial phase of running my first lovely digital Kreigslok insider edition which was one of my first digital loks to try out in conventional operation. I used the old metal Marklin re-railers while the track still had some power. That was probably my biggest lesson in stupidity wrt to the sensitivity of MMR electronics and now the poor thing is a shelf-queen. They use the C-sine engines that apparently has unique decoders and so not easily replaced oneself.
I guess you refer to the BR 42.90. That was no Kriegslok, but a post-war DB loco. Replacing the decoder should be possible using third-party components.
Replacing the motor is another option.



Ok. Someone had refered to as such. Its all grey which seems unusual. Its been years since I revisited it. Of course if it is DB is has to be post war.

I would love to know which direction to look for 3rd party components, (edit: appropriate decoder?)
... what decoder brand/type do you suggest?
And what motor would you replace it with?
- Mark

Edited by user 06 May 2022 16:14:27(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1955-65, fan of V200, electrics and steam... so hard to narrow down...
...signaling systems, yard traffic and shunting, Sommerfeldt catenary,
and station architecture (esp. stations from 1920-70).
In process: a new modular layout, track planning and drawing benchwork.
Email anytime or chat live: https://discord.gg/jAEKyTWQPQ
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#63 Posted : 05 May 2022 10:11:45(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,349
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post
.....what motor would you replace it with?


Possibly https://www.sb-modellbau...-Maerklin-BR-42-DR-22180

Offline Mark5  
#64 Posted : 06 May 2022 06:36:23(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,286
Location: Canada
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post
.....what motor would you replace it with?


Possibly https://www.sb-modellbau...-Maerklin-BR-42-DR-22180



The link tells me in German that the page cannot be found.
DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1955-65, fan of V200, electrics and steam... so hard to narrow down...
...signaling systems, yard traffic and shunting, Sommerfeldt catenary,
and station architecture (esp. stations from 1920-70).
In process: a new modular layout, track planning and drawing benchwork.
Email anytime or chat live: https://discord.gg/jAEKyTWQPQ
Offline H0  
#65 Posted : 06 May 2022 08:16:10(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,525
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post
.....what motor would you replace it with?


Possibly https://www.sb-modellbau...-Maerklin-BR-42-DR-22180



The link tells me in German that the page cannot be found.
It seems this is the wrong link anyway. Märklin's BR 42 has nothing in common with Märklins BR 42.90 which you have.

The set you would need is 22074. Links to the English page do not work. Click the Union flag and search for 22074.
Here's a link to the German page:
https://www.sb-modellbau...-Franco-Crosti_OBB-BR-52


SB Modellbau is one option for a new motor. It seems to be a very difficult option in this case, requiring grinding the loco frame.
In some cases the large C Sine motor can be replaced with a Märklin 60941 motor. Maybe others can tell how easy or complicated this is for this particular model.
Some third parties offer motor drivers for the C Sine motor that allow using modern decoders with the large C-Sine motor.
One provider is Rail4You: https://www.rail4you.ch/...rung/dsm-2-0-der-treiber
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by H0
Offline Mark5  
#66 Posted : 06 May 2022 16:09:07(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,286
Location: Canada


Replacing the Decoder would seem like the easier option. It was working fine and then just froze after what appears to be a short.
There should be a way I can just power the motor to test it at least before taking on a replacement project.
How would I do that with a C sine motor without potential damage?
Where can i find the specifications?
DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1955-65, fan of V200, electrics and steam... so hard to narrow down...
...signaling systems, yard traffic and shunting, Sommerfeldt catenary,
and station architecture (esp. stations from 1920-70).
In process: a new modular layout, track planning and drawing benchwork.
Email anytime or chat live: https://discord.gg/jAEKyTWQPQ
Offline H0  
#67 Posted : 06 May 2022 16:20:42(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,525
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post
Where can i find the specifications?
I don't know. Rumours say these are Swiss-made motors that Märklin bought from a supplier.

Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post
How would I do that with a C sine motor without potential damage?
That's part of the problem as the motor has 6 connectors. That's why regular decoders cannot be used without a motor driver.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by H0
Users browsing this topic
OceanSpiders 2.0
2 Pages<12
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

| Powered by YAF.NET | YAF.NET © 2003-2022, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 0.777 seconds.