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Offline husafreak  
#1 Posted : 08 October 2021 21:43:46(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 403
Location: California, Bay Area
I am running my “previously owned” version of this train set for the first time today. My example runs smoothly in both directions but is very power hungry and doesn’t want to run slowly, this is on a 210R oval. Maybe normal behavior for it to slow around the curves and speed up again on the straights. It looks like it needs big curves. The motor car is only slightly warm. Also the motor car (restaurant car) does not have interior lighting but it looks like it should if I read the product description properly? I can’t find an exploded view. Before I pry it open I thought I would ask…
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Offline husafreak  
#2 Posted : 08 October 2021 22:56:22(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 403
Location: California, Bay Area
OK, I found a video on you tube showing the train in very slow operation, but not a good enough video to determine the lighting of the cars. Also by then, after half an hour or so, the train was not wanting to run anymore. So I opened it up and found the driest mechanism I have ever seen, bone dry! I oiled the gearing lightly as per the manual with Labelle 108 oil. I checked the motor brushes and they were not worn very much at all, still approximately 2mm of brush, plenty of life left. I also noted that there is no lighting in the car and never could be, despite Marklin's description. I saw how track power comes to the motor from the other cars, really clever. I cleaned all the wheels and coupler contacts. The motor car wheels were a little dirty, especially in the corners (or whatever you call the part that holds the rail), which may have hurt the electrical contact on the curves. Now the train is running nicely, it can sustain at slower speeds and doesn't seem so power hungry, it maintains its speed around the track. It is amazing what a few drops of oil can do! This is a really cool train, it looks great on the track and finally I have a train that looks good going really fast!
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Offline Mman  
#3 Posted : 31 October 2021 18:01:25(UTC)
Mman

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 157
Location: England, Guildford
Interested to read of your experiences with the 88712 ICE, I don’t have that version, only have two of the 1985 model 8871 and the later one 88715, If your one is now working well I would say there was no need to modify it, the current conducting couplers are much better than the ones in the 1985 version and that is the reason why it is worth bridging the diodes in the two end power cars of the 8871. Also if you do lose current the one power car of the 88712 will simply stop without trying to drag the whole consist off the track.
As I wrote elsewhere on this site,if my later version should start to misbehave it does not seem possible to modify that version.

You mention elsewhere about Märklin’s lack of traction tyres and I wonder if it is because with the consequential slight loss of pickup they think that the product could no longer conform to the radiation emissions requirements that they print in all the instruction leaflets - just a thought.
ChrisG
Offline husafreak  
#4 Posted : 10 November 2021 17:38:26(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 403
Location: California, Bay Area
I was able to add an 87714 intermediate car to my set. The 5 car train operates the same as the 4 car set did so that is good news. I was afraid the extra load might be noticeable. One of the current Conducting Couplers (CCC) had the upper and lower leaves of copper pulled away or peeling from the plastic coupler. My first reaction was dismay as the car came from Germany (shipping was cheap to me though) and sending it back would have been expensive. But a tiny bit of UHU applied with a piece of paper and clamped overnight seems to have got it fixed.
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Zme
Offline Zme  
#5 Posted : 10 November 2021 18:55:33(UTC)
Zme

United States   
Joined: 02/10/2013(UTC)
Posts: 459
Location: West Texas
Hello.

I would not expect repairs to this connector would be possible. Glad to hear. I have one which needs this solution.

I think this is a $5 part, if you can find it, and you would likely wait about three months to get it. Shipping would be twice that cost.

Thanks for the idea. UHU is just plastic glue is that correct?

Dwight
Offline husafreak  
#6 Posted : 10 November 2021 21:01:50(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 403
Location: California, Bay Area
UHU POR is a type of contact adhesive which is very good but there are other brands that are very close. It will not attack the plastic or the copper. In this case we are not going to really allow the glue to dry before sticking it together though so it is best to clamp it overnight. I just used a tiny alligator clip. I put a thin film on a slip of paper directly from the tube, only on one side, trying not to have any globs, then stuck it between the copper and the plastic coupler, I worked it around a bit, pulled it out and clamped the piece, I did the other side the next day. I did not get any globs or glue squeezing out after clamping, it was really applied thin. Then I just cleaned the contacts with a bit of alcohol on a swab. This type of glue stays flexible and can be cleaned, removed, or just softened and left to dry again with lighter fluid so it is pretty stress free to use ;)
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Zme
Offline Mman  
#7 Posted : 20 November 2021 23:18:25(UTC)
Mman

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 157
Location: England, Guildford
4733BF27-6AFE-4419-9C11-1301D5FC6CC4.jpeg73D5AF4A-3B32-4DFE-9F3E-DA55BAFD83CB.jpegAccording to ‘Collection Märklin Spur Z’ book these are the current conducting couplers used in the 88712 ICE3.
This is a sealed packet of 6 of these couplers, note that one of the couplers has already been parted from its copper track!
There are two holes in the copper part and two pips on the plastic part, these are merely for locating the former on the latter and do not fasten the parts together. Therefore Märklin presumably used some sort of glue to (attempt) to hold them together. I wonder what sort it was.
ChrisG
Offline wildstix  
#8 Posted : 20 December 2021 16:53:26(UTC)
wildstix

Indonesia   
Joined: 12/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 70
Location: Jakarta Raya, Jakarta
Hey beautiful people in the mini world!

I have a question about the same set. So I just received a previously owned 88712 and the guy who sold it to me claimed that the set is working properly, although he didn't test it on the track. So it came today and I tried to run the motor on the track, but it didn't move. So I took a look inside, especially the gears in the trucks.
The truck on the pantograph side has no issue, it rolls freely and got so much better after I oiled them. However, the gears in the other truck are jammed and won't roll. I disassembled the truck and cleaned the gears and the housing. If I try to spin the gears without the cover, they are all spun freely, but as soon as I put the cover back, the gears went jammed again.

So, my question is, is there anything else that I can try to free the gears in that truck? What may caused the gears to jam, even after cleaning?
Oka aka W. Kapriandi
8800 Dampflok BR 89
8875 Diesellok BR 216
8892 Schnellzuglokomotiven
88484 Elektrolokomotive Re 14
88807 Diesellok BR 218 Cottbus
8827 Dampflok BR 41
8837 Elektrolokomotive BR 127
Offline Zme  
#9 Posted : 20 December 2021 17:46:39(UTC)
Zme

United States   
Joined: 02/10/2013(UTC)
Posts: 459
Location: West Texas
Hello, hope all is well.

That is a tough question to answer. The one thing I could think of to explain why the truck rolls freely with the shell off but stops rolling when the shell is replaced, is some kind of damage interfering with the truck.

I assume the truck was assembled correctly and it rolls freely. Is it possible to observe any issues? The axles are fine not bent? The gear is not damaged? The wheel contacts are properly in back of the wheels etc.

Comparing the 88715 to yours, I believe the 88712 basically uses the same components, just the motor is different. That is just a guess on my part. Here is the exploded diagram for the 88715. I looked it over and don't see something which stands out.

88715drawing.pdf (846kb) downloaded 26 time(s).

Will do more study and may chime in again later.

Take good care.

Dwight
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Offline husafreak  
#10 Posted : 20 December 2021 17:49:52(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 403
Location: California, Bay Area
There's this: https://www.google.com/u...aw1CvPSjSe94_mNULsgaqtoC

I am having a little trouble understanding the problem but is the motor getting power? Power comes from the non motorized cars in this train. So if you simply place the powered car on the track it won't move, it needs the non motorized cars to be attatched on the track to collect and provide power.
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Offline husafreak  
#11 Posted : 20 December 2021 18:01:07(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 403
Location: California, Bay Area
After adding a fifth car to my set I am having an issue with the front truck of the car behind the power car derailing on my 220mm curves, it just gets sideways but still runs along the track, reversing the train solves the problem and it will circulate in reverse reliably, but going forward it sometimes leaves the track (just the front axle of the truck) making a telltale rattling sound. I'll have a look later, hopefully either the axle is binding or the truck is not turning freely. That is the only really annoying part of the ICE train, getting it on and off the track with this darn couplers.
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Zme
Offline parakiet  
#12 Posted : 20 December 2021 21:35:07(UTC)
parakiet

Belgium   
Joined: 20/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 112
Location: Flanders!
Originally Posted by: Mman Go to Quoted Post
4733BF27-6AFE-4419-9C11-1301D5FC6CC4.jpeg73D5AF4A-3B32-4DFE-9F3E-DA55BAFD83CB.jpegAccording to ‘Collection Märklin Spur Z’ book these are the current conducting couplers used in the 88712 ICE3.
This is a sealed packet of 6 of these couplers, note that one of the couplers has already been parted from its copper track!
There are two holes in the copper part and two pips on the plastic part, these are merely for locating the former on the latter and do not fasten the parts together. Therefore Märklin presumably used some sort of glue to (attempt) to hold them together. I wonder what sort it was.
ChrisG


Does it has to be glued? Seems like it is meant to just keep in place by the clips.. and leave some wiggle room.. Confused

Offline wildstix  
#13 Posted : 21 December 2021 08:56:45(UTC)
wildstix

Indonesia   
Joined: 12/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 70
Location: Jakarta Raya, Jakarta
Originally Posted by: Zme Go to Quoted Post
Hello, hope all is well.

That is a tough question to answer. The one thing I could think of to explain why the truck rolls freely with the shell off but stops rolling when the shell is replaced, is some kind of damage interfering with the truck.

I assume the truck was assembled correctly and it rolls freely. Is it possible to observe any issues? The axles are fine not bent? The gear is not damaged? The wheel contacts are properly in back of the wheels etc.

Comparing the 88715 to yours, I believe the 88712 basically uses the same components, just the motor is different. That is just a guess on my part. Here is the exploded diagram for the 88715. I looked it over and don't see something which stands out.

88715drawing.pdf (846kb) downloaded 26 time(s).

Will do more study and may chime in again later.

Take good care.

Dwight


Hey Dwight,

Thank you for the parts sheet, and you're right about the components! Well, I disassembled the trucks carefully and step by step, keeping the orientation the same as I took our the gears to clean. From my observation, all the gears are fine, that includes the axles. If you look at the exploded diagram, the truck I mentioned is the one at the right.


If I take them off the chassis, the trucks should roll freely when we push them, for this case one of them is not. It is still jammed even after I cleaned everything, that is why I need suggestions on what else can I do. At the moment, I dipped them in WD-40 for 24 hours and will clean the gears with brush afterwards before I remove all the oil. I hope that will solve the problem, however, due to the uncertainty, I welcome any inputs or suggestions.

Oka aka W. Kapriandi
8800 Dampflok BR 89
8875 Diesellok BR 216
8892 Schnellzuglokomotiven
88484 Elektrolokomotive Re 14
88807 Diesellok BR 218 Cottbus
8827 Dampflok BR 41
8837 Elektrolokomotive BR 127
Offline wildstix  
#14 Posted : 21 December 2021 09:05:33(UTC)
wildstix

Indonesia   
Joined: 12/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 70
Location: Jakarta Raya, Jakarta
Originally Posted by: husafreak Go to Quoted Post
There's this: https://www.google.com/u...aw1CvPSjSe94_mNULsgaqtoC

I am having a little trouble understanding the problem but is the motor getting power? Power comes from the non motorized cars in this train. So if you simply place the powered car on the track it won't move, it needs the non motorized cars to be attatched on the track to collect and provide power.


Thanks for the link!👍
Yes, I'm sorry if it was confusing, because the things behind the scene of getting this set was also a headache and I was not sure where to start to ask. Anyways, I believe the person who sold me the set that the motor is working, but I learned the hard way of not pushing the motor when the gears are not rolling or rolling heavily. I will try the set again when I'm done deep cleaning the gears today.

Oka aka W. Kapriandi
8800 Dampflok BR 89
8875 Diesellok BR 216
8892 Schnellzuglokomotiven
88484 Elektrolokomotive Re 14
88807 Diesellok BR 218 Cottbus
8827 Dampflok BR 41
8837 Elektrolokomotive BR 127
Offline Mman  
#15 Posted : 21 December 2021 11:59:17(UTC)
Mman

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 157
Location: England, Guildford
There is not much to these trucks, two wheelsets with central gear wheel, two idlers and above them the gear that engages with the worm driven by the motor (the worm wheel).
When trying the trucks on there own do you put the pin in to properly journal the worm wheel? Do you leave the worm wheel off?
Have you unclipped the base of the truck to enable the wheelsets and other gears to be closely examined for grit etc between the teeth?
Since there are no pickups on these trucks totally dismantling and reassembling them shouldn’t be a problem (think twice about doing that to trucks with pickups).
Best of luck!
ChrisG
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Offline Zme  
#16 Posted : 21 December 2021 15:58:58(UTC)
Zme

United States   
Joined: 02/10/2013(UTC)
Posts: 459
Location: West Texas
Hello, hope all is well.

This might sound crazy but what about a swap of the components from one truck to the other to see if the same issue follows. All components are identical it should not be a problem to try this.

That way it will isolate the issue. If you move the problem components to another spot and the problem follows this swap, you will know the problem is in the component.

One thing I know is that everything is very precisely designed and must be assembled in the same manner. If something is a bit out of specification if may cause issues.

It is possible this was damaged by a previous owner, and when that owner could not fix it, passed it on to you. It happens and often the seller doesn’t really know anything about what they are selling.

Just a suggestion. Take good care.

Dwight
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Offline wildstix  
#17 Posted : 21 December 2021 16:37:06(UTC)
wildstix

Indonesia   
Joined: 12/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 70
Location: Jakarta Raya, Jakarta
Originally Posted by: Zme Go to Quoted Post
Hello, hope all is well.

This might sound crazy but what about a swap of the components from one truck to the other to see if the same issue follows. All components are identical it should not be a problem to try this.

That way it will isolate the issue. If you move the problem components to another spot and the problem follows this swap, you will know the problem is in the component.

One thing I know is that everything is very precisely designed and must be assembled in the same manner. If something is a bit out of specification if may cause issues.

It is possible this was damaged by a previous owner, and when that owner could not fix it, passed it on to you. It happens and often the seller doesn’t really know anything about what they are selling.

Just a suggestion. Take good care.

Dwight


Hey Dwight,

I did your suggestion to swap and the same issues follows....bummer! I think that solves the mystery and I will need to look a replacement for the broken components 😥

So before I read your reply, I took a picture to illustrate the problem with the jammed truck. So what I found is the wheels are rolling in a different direction.
This is the view from the bottom, without the base of the truck
IMG_1353.jpg

More strange was that the gears could spin on direction without the base of the truck, but when I put it back, all the gears became stuck.

Well, none of that matter anymore, because I don't think the gears are serviceable, right? Even if they are, I believe it would be much cheaper to find the spare parts. Oh well, I knew this was the risk and I'll enjoy my hunting again 😊

Oka aka W. Kapriandi
8800 Dampflok BR 89
8875 Diesellok BR 216
8892 Schnellzuglokomotiven
88484 Elektrolokomotive Re 14
88807 Diesellok BR 218 Cottbus
8827 Dampflok BR 41
8837 Elektrolokomotive BR 127
Offline husafreak  
#18 Posted : 21 December 2021 16:56:59(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 403
Location: California, Bay Area
Originally Posted by ZME:
"This might sound crazy but what about a swap of the components from one truck to the other to see if the same issue follows. All components are identical it should not be a problem to try this."

Off topic, but if you ever get a loco that runs backwards and has the power pickup from the trucks, then swapping them will change the direction that the loco runs.
Also thank you for posting the link to the diagram. I could not find that online when I got my set.

Parakiet, I think they are glued on by Marklin. There is nothing to hold those copper contacts onto the plastic connectors. I think the holes in the copper are to allow the glue to dry or escape and maybe for the assembly machine but they do not clip in place. They just sit in a shallow depression in the plastic clip. If you mean they would be held in place by the spring contact "clips" inside the car bodies, well, they might, but getting them installed would be almost impossible. Maybe in the not too distant future owners will disassemble these trains and have the connectors falling apart worldwide. Too bad someone from Marklin couldn't tell us. But it looks like another HOS deal but with glue that ages, or when I bought replacement brushes and the "coals" had come off the spring, which has happened to me twice.
Offline Zme  
#19 Posted : 21 December 2021 17:04:17(UTC)
Zme

United States   
Joined: 02/10/2013(UTC)
Posts: 459
Location: West Texas
Hi

That worm gear axle looks wide, how does it compare to the other one?

Does that truck assemble look undamaged?

You know, these are real popular sets. Mine was an Ebay find and the seller said it had contact issues. It turned out to be true and I had to purchase those connectors shown above. I got lucky to get help here and did not have to add much to my purchase price. It did however take months to come to the conclusion and that was disappointing.

This set is unusual and difficult to work on because it is a onetime offering and I am not sure how likely you will be able to find what you need.

Still gotta love this model, but it is difficult to move or even pick up because of those darn connectors. Seems they would easily break, and it is not easy to get them back together once disconnected.

Best wishes on your project. Take good care.

Dwight
Offline Carim  
#20 Posted : 21 December 2021 17:23:11(UTC)
Carim

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 549
Location: London
Are you sure that those idler gears are sitting correctly? The lower one looks as if it is a bit off (could be the photo) - is the moulding of the bogie smooth, there could be a bit of flash causing things not to sit properly. I think that this might be the case with the base cover.

Carim
Offline husafreak  
#21 Posted : 21 December 2021 17:26:59(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 403
Location: California, Bay Area
Good job wildstix! You have found the problem. And Zme predicted this: "It is possible this was damaged by a previous owner, and when that owner could not fix it, passed it on to you. It happens and often the seller doesn’t really know anything about what they are selling."
I think your loco has an incorrect gear installed, maybe the original was lost... Maybe count the teeth and compare just to be sure.
This kind of thing happens all too often when buying old locos on the auction sites. I referred earlier to a loco I got that had had its trucks swapped, it was also missing a light bulb fixture, but it came with a mechanics certificate saying it was repaired and tested, in excellent running condition! I did get a partial refund for that which I used to buy a light bulb. I have gotten steam loco's that had their wheels out of sync. In your case maybe it was an estate sale or a situation where the seller is not to be held accountable. But I still think if money changes hands then a refund (even a partial refund) should be possible. Here's an Ebay joke for when this happens: If the seller is unaware of what they selling then they are criminals, and if they are aware of what they are selling then they are criminals!
But in the world of Z scale it is pretty much accepted. Maybe not by everyone but by a lot of us on the forums. If the product is a good deal, if we really want it, and if we can make it run, then it can be a fun challenge. If you have the skills it can be worth it. FWIW, if I buy new and it doesn't run it gets returned. This is different.
For those who don't have the skill, time, or inclination, some dealers will restore or repair old loco's and test run them, or test new ones, which is fantastic but time consuming, it is a service that should and does require payment.
Good luck finding gears for your truck, they may be available.
Offline wildstix  
#22 Posted : 22 December 2021 07:18:10(UTC)
wildstix

Indonesia   
Joined: 12/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 70
Location: Jakarta Raya, Jakarta
Originally Posted by: Carim Go to Quoted Post
Are you sure that those idler gears are sitting correctly? The lower one looks as if it is a bit off (could be the photo) - is the moulding of the bogie smooth, there could be a bit of flash causing things not to sit properly. I think that this might be the case with the base cover.

Carim



Hey Carim,

I wasn't sure myself until I swapped the gears between the two trucks. The same issue follows.

So truck A has good gear set and truck B has bad gear set. I swapped truck A's gear set to truck B and they are still working properly, while truck B's gear set are still jammed when in truck A. The fact that the good gear set can spin properly in any truck, eliminate the chance for moulding imperfection and narrowed down the actual problem. That is why I believe the problem is gear set of truck B.

I have shared this to some of the Z scale wizards I l knew and their conclusion is the same. One of them even suspicious that in the past, someone made a bad repair and installed the gears with a wrong size. Well, whatever it is, I still need to find a replacement for the gear set 😔
Oka aka W. Kapriandi
8800 Dampflok BR 89
8875 Diesellok BR 216
8892 Schnellzuglokomotiven
88484 Elektrolokomotive Re 14
88807 Diesellok BR 218 Cottbus
8827 Dampflok BR 41
8837 Elektrolokomotive BR 127
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by wildstix
Offline wildstix  
#23 Posted : 22 December 2021 08:43:34(UTC)
wildstix

Indonesia   
Joined: 12/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 70
Location: Jakarta Raya, Jakarta
Originally Posted by: husafreak Go to Quoted Post
Good job wildstix! You have found the problem. And Zme predicted this: "It is possible this was damaged by a previous owner, and when that owner could not fix it, passed it on to you. It happens and often the seller doesn’t really know anything about what they are selling."
I think your loco has an incorrect gear installed, maybe the original was lost... Maybe count the teeth and compare just to be sure.
This kind of thing happens all too often when buying old locos on the auction sites. I referred earlier to a loco I got that had had its trucks swapped, it was also missing a light bulb fixture, but it came with a mechanics certificate saying it was repaired and tested, in excellent running condition! I did get a partial refund for that which I used to buy a light bulb. I have gotten steam loco's that had their wheels out of sync. In your case maybe it was an estate sale or a situation where the seller is not to be held accountable. But I still think if money changes hands then a refund (even a partial refund) should be possible. Here's an Ebay joke for when this happens: If the seller is unaware of what they selling then they are criminals, and if they are aware of what they are selling then they are criminals!
But in the world of Z scale it is pretty much accepted. Maybe not by everyone but by a lot of us on the forums. If the product is a good deal, if we really want it, and if we can make it run, then it can be a fun challenge. If you have the skills it can be worth it. FWIW, if I buy new and it doesn't run it gets returned. This is different.
For those who don't have the skill, time, or inclination, some dealers will restore or repair old loco's and test run them, or test new ones, which is fantastic but time consuming, it is a service that should and does require payment.
Good luck finding gears for your truck, they may be available.


Well, thank you for having me in your topic post 🙏
yes, I can see that the spare parts for this set won't be so tough to find, judging from what I read here and other place of how popular this set is. I will get this set moving again! 😊

Oka aka W. Kapriandi
8800 Dampflok BR 89
8875 Diesellok BR 216
8892 Schnellzuglokomotiven
88484 Elektrolokomotive Re 14
88807 Diesellok BR 218 Cottbus
8827 Dampflok BR 41
8837 Elektrolokomotive BR 127
Offline kiwiAlan  
#24 Posted : 22 December 2021 14:40:37(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 6,589
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: wildstix Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Carim Go to Quoted Post
Are you sure that those idler gears are sitting correctly? The lower one looks as if it is a bit off (could be the photo) - is the moulding of the bogie smooth, there could be a bit of flash causing things not to sit properly. I think that this might be the case with the base cover.

Carim



Hey Carim,

I wasn't sure myself until I swapped the gears between the two trucks. The same issue follows.

So truck A has good gear set and truck B has bad gear set. I swapped truck A's gear set to truck B and they are still working properly, while truck B's gear set are still jammed when in truck A. The fact that the good gear set can spin properly in any truck, eliminate the chance for moulding imperfection and narrowed down the actual problem. That is why I believe the problem is gear set of truck B.

I have shared this to some of the Z scale wizards I l knew and their conclusion is the same. One of them even suspicious that in the past, someone made a bad repair and installed the gears with a wrong size. Well, whatever it is, I still need to find a replacement for the gear set 😔


You should be able to narrow it down to a single gear by swapping them one at a time, although there is always the possibility that more than one gear in the set is wrong.

Offline husafreak  
#25 Posted : 22 December 2021 17:07:33(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 403
Location: California, Bay Area
Did you count the teeth? Or put a caliper on gear wheels? this may reveal the odd man.
Offline wildstix  
#26 Posted : 23 December 2021 02:26:25(UTC)
wildstix

Indonesia   
Joined: 12/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 70
Location: Jakarta Raya, Jakarta
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
You should be able to narrow it down to a single gear by swapping them one at a time, although there is always the possibility that more than one gear in the set is wrong.

Originally Posted by: husafreak Go to Quoted Post
Did you count the teeth? Or put a caliper on gear wheels? this may reveal the odd man.


Thank you for the ideas guys. But I believe this thing came in set, and I'd rather to replace the whole gear set. I'm by no mean an engineer of any kind, but AFAIK for this stuff, there's no such thing as throwing the baby with the bathwater.
As for the hunting...so far I only found one place that has the spare part, at Märklin! Still trying to look elsewhere but no actual hint here...beautiful people in mini world, help me, please? 😥
Oka aka W. Kapriandi
8800 Dampflok BR 89
8875 Diesellok BR 216
8892 Schnellzuglokomotiven
88484 Elektrolokomotive Re 14
88807 Diesellok BR 218 Cottbus
8827 Dampflok BR 41
8837 Elektrolokomotive BR 127
Offline Zme  
#27 Posted : 23 December 2021 06:03:18(UTC)
Zme

United States   
Joined: 02/10/2013(UTC)
Posts: 459
Location: West Texas
Hello. I just had a crazy idea.

Maybe this unit has two identical trucks. There should be one truck for the front and another, almost the same for the rear. Is this possible?

Worth checking, but I don’t know how to identify them. It is important because if you do find parts, you will need know which parts to order.

When I ordered parts for a different locomotive, I had to order parts which were listed for the front or rear truck. It was important the correct one be installed on the correct side. I know the drawing for the 88715 shows front and rear parts with the same number. Yours might be different in this respect. Does this model have two motors?

I believe the difference between them is is just that one piece which extends into the shell. There are pins inside which have gears on opposite sides. The rear set might have the gears inside on the right side of the housing while the other has the gears on the other side.

What a problem but I am sure it will be figured out. Remember it is a great and valuable ICE set.

Best wishes

Dwight
Offline husafreak  
#28 Posted : 23 December 2021 18:09:37(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 403
Location: California, Bay Area
I found the problem with the truck that kept derailing and retailing itself. One of the axles had been pushed too far into the truck and was not turning, or properly aligned. It may have come like that (it was an add on car auction site purchase) or I may have pushed down hard enough on the car while connecting it to the train that I forced it out of position. All better now.
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Zme
Offline Zme  
#29 Posted : 23 December 2021 19:41:12(UTC)
Zme

United States   
Joined: 02/10/2013(UTC)
Posts: 459
Location: West Texas
Hi. That is one easy solution which is otherwise easy to overlook. Sometime I think shipping causes some components to shift out of position perhaps just slightly.

Closes observation is often the only way to find and solve these type of problems.

I had a Br89 which started acting up and was not performing correctly. It would work, but just not as smoothly as it was previously. Oil did not make a difference. When I removed the shell, I discovered one of the wheel contacts had been pulled out and twisted from behind the wheel. I had never had that one apart, in fact had never worked on or removed any parts. I was lucky, this was a simple locomotive to work on, but it still caused me some anxiety. Just slipped that contact back into position and all was fine.

Thanks, take good care.

Dwight
Offline husafreak  
#30 Posted : 23 December 2021 21:39:32(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 403
Location: California, Bay Area
Yeah, Donegan OptiVisor came in handy for that.
Offline Toosmall  
#31 Posted : 23 December 2021 23:41:48(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 116
Location: Sydney
If one has a couple of pairs of reading glasses, just stack them. If you can position them appropriately you may get trifocal!

Set up a few sources of lights. I am using a three 600mm LED fluoro lights and some LED bulbs.

A dark grey or dark green/greyish desktop, black is too much, just a sheet of kids art cardboard on the desktop will help a lot. A light coloured background makes it difficult to see parts as you eyes adjust to the large light coloured surface and the small dark parts are then harder to see.
Offline husafreak  
#32 Posted : 24 December 2021 03:08:20(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 403
Location: California, Bay Area
I stand by my OptiVisor!
Offline wildstix  
#33 Posted : 28 December 2021 08:45:59(UTC)
wildstix

Indonesia   
Joined: 12/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 70
Location: Jakarta Raya, Jakarta
Hey again beautiful people in the mini world!

I have another question regarding 88712. So I found our that both of the end cars has a very poor rolling, but I'm not sure if taking off the wheels for clean up is the right thing to do. I'm also guessing that I can take off the trucks to be cleaned, but again, I'm not sure if that is the right thing to do (taking off the trucks). If that is what I need to do, what do I need be careful about?

Thank you before for your generous inputs! 🙏
Oka aka W. Kapriandi
8800 Dampflok BR 89
8875 Diesellok BR 216
8892 Schnellzuglokomotiven
88484 Elektrolokomotive Re 14
88807 Diesellok BR 218 Cottbus
8827 Dampflok BR 41
8837 Elektrolokomotive BR 127
Offline husafreak  
#34 Posted : 28 December 2021 16:30:36(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 403
Location: California, Bay Area
It’s pretty easy to tell if the trucks are moving freely but not so much with the wheels turning. And it is easy to pop out the wheels (axle) to make sure there’s no debris wrapped around them. Just pry one end up and out, they snap into the plastic truck and the ends are pointed to make a bearing.
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Offline Mman  
#35 Posted : 28 December 2021 17:41:58(UTC)
Mman

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 157
Location: England, Guildford
I assume that there are pickups that bear on the axles of the wheels on at least the end cars, that is how the power car gets its supply via the other intermediate cars. These intermediate cars will have lights - in the case of other ICEs the intermediate cars also have pick ups purely for the lights in that car.
If you remove any wheels you must replace them exactly as they came out and not either turned thro 180 degrees or inserted in any other position. Also the pickup springs must be on the correct side of the axles. The wheel sets have one insulated and one non- insulated wheel which is why the orientation is important.
The pickup springs acting against the axles will cause some friction and render the individual cars not as free rolling as ones without pickups.
Good luck,
ChrisG
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Offline Zme  
#36 Posted : 28 December 2021 20:14:51(UTC)
Zme

United States   
Joined: 02/10/2013(UTC)
Posts: 459
Location: West Texas
Hi. Hope all is well.

From the diagram it seems 1kl and 2kl have the same trucks. The middle wagon has a different one. Be certain not to remove them all at once and accidentally get them mixed up.

It is interesting, the diagram does not show the wagon trucks come apart, but I am certain that they do. If replacing, perhaps the entire part would need to be purchased assembled.

If your set is working, it might not be optimal until all the wheels roll easily.

On my set, I was able to get movement even when not all the wagons were connected. The only problem was, it would only go in one direction.

Best wishes. Take good care.

Dwight
Offline wildstix  
#37 Posted : 29 December 2021 11:44:38(UTC)
wildstix

Indonesia   
Joined: 12/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 70
Location: Jakarta Raya, Jakarta
Originally Posted by: husafreak Go to Quoted Post
It’s pretty easy to tell if the trucks are moving freely but not so much with the wheels turning. And it is easy to pop out the wheels (axle) to make sure there’s no debris wrapped around them. Just pry one end up and out, they snap into the plastic truck and the ends are pointed to make a bearing.

Originally Posted by: Mman Go to Quoted Post
I assume that there are pickups that bear on the axles of the wheels on at least the end cars, that is how the power car gets its supply via the other intermediate cars. These intermediate cars will have lights - in the case of other ICEs the intermediate cars also have pick ups purely for the lights in that car.
If you remove any wheels you must replace them exactly as they came out and not either turned thro 180 degrees or inserted in any other position. Also the pickup springs must be on the correct side of the axles. The wheel sets have one insulated and one non- insulated wheel which is why the orientation is important.
The pickup springs acting against the axles will cause some friction and render the individual cars not as free rolling as ones without pickups.
Good luck,
ChrisG

Originally Posted by: Zme Go to Quoted Post
Hi. Hope all is well.

From the diagram it seems 1kl and 2kl have the same trucks. The middle wagon has a different one. Be certain not to remove them all at once and accidentally get them mixed up.

It is interesting, the diagram does not show the wagon trucks come apart, but I am certain that they do. If replacing, perhaps the entire part would need to be purchased assembled.

If your set is working, it might not be optimal until all the wheels roll easily.

On my set, I was able to get movement even when not all the wagons were connected. The only problem was, it would only go in one direction.

Best wishes. Take good care.

Dwight


Hey guys!

Thank you so much for the replies! I learned that I was missing that one important fact, to care about the wheels original position, good to know about this before I disassemble them. 🙏👍
Oka aka W. Kapriandi
8800 Dampflok BR 89
8875 Diesellok BR 216
8892 Schnellzuglokomotiven
88484 Elektrolokomotive Re 14
88807 Diesellok BR 218 Cottbus
8827 Dampflok BR 41
8837 Elektrolokomotive BR 127
Offline Mman  
#38 Posted : 07 January 2022 00:19:07(UTC)
Mman

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 157
Location: England, Guildford
0CD74DAB-60F5-4BEB-9963-73B3A91FA8E9.jpegI have just had a close look at the pickup arrangements for the 88715 ICE 3, there are only bogies with pickups on the two driving trailers, none on the centre coaches iand none on the additional coaches.
I don’t know if this is the same as the 88712 but it is very different to the old 8871 arrangement which have pickups on every vehicle, not for traction supply in the case of the middle coaches but on these they are just to power the lights in that coach, which results in very uneven illumination. There are mods that can be done on these centre coaches to connect each coach lighting supply to the traction supply that simply passes through going to and from the front and rear power cars. This makes the whole consist far more reliable but isn’t suited to auto running since the isolated section in front of a red signal would have to be at least the length of the whole train.
The type of pickups which are used on the 88715 driving trailers are similar to the snow plough ones (81360) which are troublesome, lets hope these don’t go that way.
ChrisG
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Offline Toosmall  
#39 Posted : 07 January 2022 01:43:21(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 116
Location: Sydney
On the original ICE one could not only bridge the diode on both of the locomotives, but you could wire in the intermediate cars so you have pick-up from every wheel.
Offline wildstix  
#40 Posted : 13 January 2022 06:52:25(UTC)
wildstix

Indonesia   
Joined: 12/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 70
Location: Jakarta Raya, Jakarta
Hi again, beautiful people in the mini world!

After hours of unsuccessful attempts, I finally sent my 88712 to my friend, a Z scale wizard, in Austria (Anybody here around Vienna?) He found two issues with my set, the engine contacts and the gear set in the motor car (obviously).

The engine contacts show signs of sloppy repair, and one of the causes of why the train set only moves forward. He had to clean the sloppy solder from the circuit board and re-solder the engine contacts. He also re-soldered the blocking diodes on the circuit board, practically rebuilding the electronic system of the engine car. The result is that the train set now can move forward and also in reverse!

Then the gear set. So I took a chance to order the truck set for 88715 (sent it directly to my friend), and when he compared them, it was clear that the old truck has the wrong gear set!!! Below is the picture between them.
WhatsApp Image 2022-01-11 at 1.15.52 PM.jpeg
Right: the correct gear (for 88712 and 88715)
Left: from my train

WhatsApp Image 2022-01-11 at 1.16.12 PM.jpeg
Above: from my train
Below: the correct gear (for 88712 and 88715)

The other truck is luckily still with the correct gear set. We only need to replace one truck and the 88715 truck set (including the gears) fits right in! So Dwight, you now can be sure that the trucks components for 88712 and 88715 are the same!


At this moment, my 88712 is back alive and well. All I need to do now is waiting for my friend to send it to me. But massive thank you as well for all of you here for your support and inputs! I truly appreciate it!
Oka aka W. Kapriandi
8800 Dampflok BR 89
8875 Diesellok BR 216
8892 Schnellzuglokomotiven
88484 Elektrolokomotive Re 14
88807 Diesellok BR 218 Cottbus
8827 Dampflok BR 41
8837 Elektrolokomotive BR 127
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Offline husafreak  
#41 Posted : 13 January 2022 07:16:46(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 403
Location: California, Bay Area
That is great, thanks for showing us the correct gears. Shame on whoever messed it up and sold it off but I tell you, with this gang on the forum, the buck stops here ;) we fix things!
You are going to love this set. I haven’t taken mine off the track since I got it, it is fascinating to watch.
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Offline Zme  
#42 Posted : 13 January 2022 07:37:50(UTC)
Zme

United States   
Joined: 02/10/2013(UTC)
Posts: 459
Location: West Texas
Hello, so happy for you!

It is good to have friends when you need them.

With the correct parts in hand, it is easy to discover the root of the problem. Good thing it was not run much with the wrong parts.

I hope you got a bargain when you picked up this great set. It is a fantastic and rare addition to your collection.

Take good care

Dwight

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Offline wildstix  
#43 Posted : 13 January 2022 16:23:01(UTC)
wildstix

Indonesia   
Joined: 12/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 70
Location: Jakarta Raya, Jakarta
Originally Posted by: husafreak Go to Quoted Post
That is great, thanks for showing us the correct gears. Shame on whoever messed it up and sold it off but I tell you, with this gang on the forum, the buck stops here ;) we fix things!
You are going to love this set. I haven’t taken mine off the track since I got it, it is fascinating to watch.

Your welcome! You know, I tried to track the history to the guy who sold me the set, and as far as he knows, the truck was never opened (it was his uncle's). His uncle have passed away too, so I guess the mystery went to the grave with him.


Originally Posted by: Zme Go to Quoted Post
Hello, so happy for you!

It is good to have friends when you need them.

With the correct parts in hand, it is easy to discover the root of the problem. Good thing it was not run much with the wrong parts.

I hope you got a bargain when you picked up this great set. It is a fantastic and rare addition to your collection.

Take good care

Dwight


I paid roughly $125 or 109€ for it. I honestly didn't know the value and I just paid it without thinking because I love the modern era trains. I don't know if that was too much or a good bargain 😌

Oka aka W. Kapriandi
8800 Dampflok BR 89
8875 Diesellok BR 216
8892 Schnellzuglokomotiven
88484 Elektrolokomotive Re 14
88807 Diesellok BR 218 Cottbus
8827 Dampflok BR 41
8837 Elektrolokomotive BR 127
Offline husafreak  
#44 Posted : 13 January 2022 17:57:35(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 403
Location: California, Bay Area
That is quite good actually. That set listed as not running would sell in an instant on fleabay for $125. I saw an 88712 in a mechanic equipped Marklin shop in Aachen for roughly 369 euros or something like that and I paid $400 for mine last summer.
Something we have to consider is the advancing age of Z owners, if a 30 year old with young children started collecting in 1972 then he is 80 now! I expect these "estate sales" to come on strong in the not too distant future with lots of "not tested" locos for sale by family members or distributors. Parts availability will be a hurdle though, you may have gotten lucky there. Speaking of which, I have not seen (or noticed) helical cut gears on a Marklin loco before, so that fascinates me. I know they are more efficient but also wouldn't they produce side loading which the truck bodies are not designed to take? I'm no engineer though. I wonder how common those are? Or maybe an unusual feature of this set.
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Offline wildstix  
#45 Posted : 19 January 2022 05:31:52(UTC)
wildstix

Indonesia   
Joined: 12/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 70
Location: Jakarta Raya, Jakarta
Originally Posted by: husafreak Go to Quoted Post
I have not seen (or noticed) helical cut gears on a Marklin loco before, so that fascinates me. I know they are more efficient but also wouldn't they produce side loading which the truck bodies are not designed to take? I'm no engineer though. I wonder how common those are? Or maybe an unusual feature of this set.

Maybe they intended for an efficient power transmission and for it to be steady on the corner at high speed? Same here, no engineer too 😅
So my friend sent me a glimpse of my ICE running. This was still at his place, but I'm so grateful that I want to share it here too. You can see it here ⬅️ click the link 😊

Edited by user 19 January 2022 10:30:08(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Oka aka W. Kapriandi
8800 Dampflok BR 89
8875 Diesellok BR 216
8892 Schnellzuglokomotiven
88484 Elektrolokomotive Re 14
88807 Diesellok BR 218 Cottbus
8827 Dampflok BR 41
8837 Elektrolokomotive BR 127
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by wildstix
Offline husafreak  
#46 Posted : 19 January 2022 07:33:41(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 403
Location: California, Bay Area
Looking good!
Offline husafreak  
#47 Posted : 19 January 2022 16:31:42(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 403
Location: California, Bay Area
My set has 4 cars BTW. And I added another when it pooed up on auction. I saw no degradation in operation going from 4 to 5 cars.
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