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Offline Joakim_B  
#1 Posted : 24 November 2021 11:37:56(UTC)
Joakim_B

Denmark   
Joined: 27/12/2018(UTC)
Posts: 11
Location: Hovedstaden, Copenhagen
Hi Märklin friends
After updating of my CS3 and CS3+ (to 2.3.1) I often have the message in German: Der decoder wird ausgelesen”, but only when some trains is moving with sound turned on. The message disturbs the S88 readings and the system has further error messages.
By reading German forums I found out that the M83/84 may cause the problem and if I disconnect the M83 (mfx) on my layout the fault is gone! But how can I eliminate this error/fault?
If anyone knows about this issue and have good suggestions I’ll be happy BigGrin
Joakim

Edited by user 30 November 2021 15:58:03(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline kimballthurlow  
#2 Posted : 24 November 2021 21:23:58(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,130
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hi Joakim,

I think I get a similar reaction on my old Mobile Station 1 (60652).
The graphics for the speed control just flash, indicating that particular engine is no longer detectable by the controller.
On my layout this is caused by dirty track.

Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail (USA and Australia) - 3 rail (English Hornby Dublo) - a few old O gauge.
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Offline Joakim_B  
#3 Posted : 25 November 2021 09:28:47(UTC)
Joakim_B

Denmark   
Joined: 27/12/2018(UTC)
Posts: 11
Location: Hovedstaden, Copenhagen
Hi Kimball - and thank you. I do not think that that the issues are the same. The messages and the faults are there even when the trains are not moving
Br Joakim
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Offline marklinist5999  
#4 Posted : 25 November 2021 12:28:24(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 1,170
Location: Michigan, Troy
Is the m83 functioning correctly? Could you possibly be running a locomotive at the time the error shows which has the same address as the M83? Wether mfx, or mm format?
I had a locomotive with a mm format address 01. It was changing an mfx home signal when I set the f4 function on. The cs3 assigned address 01 for the home signal upon mfx install. Now the cs3 is supposed to separate addresses for locos, signals, and turnouts. It could be a fault with the signal decoder, but changing the locos address to 02 stopped it.
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Offline Joakim_B  
#5 Posted : 25 November 2021 16:32:40(UTC)
Joakim_B

Denmark   
Joined: 27/12/2018(UTC)
Posts: 11
Location: Hovedstaden, Copenhagen
Hi M5999
Your proposal is very interesting. I have never considered that some addesses for M83 (mfx) could be the same as some loco. .. I have now checked and one old M6080 decoder has the same mm addres (41) as one of the M83!
It is now changed and I'll investigate further and be back.
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Online JohnjeanB  
#6 Posted : 25 November 2021 17:36:49(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,808
Location: Paris, France
Hi Joakim

Just a shoot in the dark about your problem.
I have quite a number of MFX locos on my layout (32 all on line). When I update the CS3 (was the same with a CS2 60215 previously), I have to "short-register" the MFX locos again.
Short register: you have to select each of your locos on the CS3 and now the loco is fully in line with the CS The MFX number does not change but it looks like the procedure is only then fully completed. Alas I would prefer that registered MFX locos would stay on-line and they do except after a new update.
Note: I have a few MFX accessory decoders but avoid using MFX on them.

Another function that works quite well with the CS3: find lost MFX locos. It used to be crap on the CS2 with earlier versions.

I believe Märklin is still having some issues with MFX (the locos are not all the time in line (I use Rocrail) and the locos are supposed to have sounds ON (the CS3 says it is on) but I need to toggle the command to have it transmitted to the loco (not a real problem with Rocrail. This is just an example but it shows Märklin MFX bugs are still remaining.
Cheers
Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
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Offline Joakim_B  
#7 Posted : 26 November 2021 17:07:03(UTC)
Joakim_B

Denmark   
Joined: 27/12/2018(UTC)
Posts: 11
Location: Hovedstaden, Copenhagen
Thank you Jean!
Also a very interesting and useful tip. I'll investigate all and I'll be back, when I find the root cause for the strange behaviour ......

By the way, how do you avoid using MFX on MFX accessory decoders ?

Cheers and have a nice weekend
Joakim
Online JohnjeanB  
#8 Posted : 26 November 2021 20:26:40(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,808
Location: Paris, France
Hi Joakim
Originally Posted by: Joakim_B Go to Quoted Post

By the way, how do you avoid using MFX on MFX accessory decoders ?

What I do (e.g. on a 60832) is I use the switches to set the address associated with a manual creation on the CS3
Inspection of the MFX registration of the same module on the CS3 and deletion of the unused registration (if any).

Note: The accessory decoders register only when you select the function “Find New mfx Devices”
This is where a separate wiring for rail and for decoder can help prevent unwanted registrations (you select this function only to find locos while the accessory decoders are not powered)
Cheers
Jean

My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#9 Posted : 26 November 2021 21:15:24(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 6,436
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Joakim_B Go to Quoted Post
Thank you Jean!
Also a very interesting and useful tip. I'll investigate all and I'll be back, when I find the root cause for the strange behaviour ......

By the way, how do you avoid using MFX on MFX accessory decoders ?

Cheers and have a nice weekend
Joakim


The mfx funtionality is only used to report the address to the controller, or to set up an address. Once that is done then the address used to operate the device is the MM or DCC address as set on the switches or configured by mfx.

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Online JohnjeanB  
#10 Posted : 26 November 2021 21:47:52(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,808
Location: Paris, France
Hi Alan
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post

The mfx funtionality is only used to report the address to the controller, or to set up an address. Once that is done then the address used to operate the device is the MM or DCC address as set on the switches or configured by mfx.

In theory you are right - so simple - I believe there much more complication:
- interrogation of loco MFX addresses with possible multiple answers in the same time slot
- arbitration between address conflicts
- re-use whenever possible of the loco own MFX address
- reprogramming of new MFX addresses
- avoiding the re-use of loco's addresses recently seen by the CS2 or CS3 (temporarily not on the layout or in stop sections
- manage important noise levels for decision (on a simple layout MFX works like a charm but it gest more complicated when many locos are in place)

So this is why, Märklin has troubles finding the last bugs. But the system has vastly improved since the early CS1 (60212) and MFX models in 2006 or so
Cheers
Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#11 Posted : 26 November 2021 22:25:24(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 6,436
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi Alan
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post

The mfx funtionality is only used to report the address to the controller, or to set up an address. Once that is done then the address used to operate the device is the MM or DCC address as set on the switches or configured by mfx.

In theory you are right - so simple - I believe there much more complication:
- interrogation of loco MFX addresses with possible multiple answers in the same time slot
- arbitration between address conflicts
- re-use whenever possible of the loco own MFX address
- reprogramming of new MFX addresses
- avoiding the re-use of loco's addresses recently seen by the CS2 or CS3 (temporarily not on the layout or in stop sections
- manage important noise levels for decision (on a simple layout MFX works like a charm but it gest more complicated when many locos are in place)

So this is why, Märklin has troubles finding the last bugs. But the system has vastly improved since the early CS1 (60212) and MFX models in 2006 or so
Cheers
Jean


Ah, ah, no, I'm talking about mfx accessories, i.e. signals and points, not locos. Locos and other mfx rolling stock always operate as an mfx device and use the mfx address. Accessory devices only use mfx for identification during start up, and then use the MM or DCC address.

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Offline Joakim_B  
#12 Posted : 30 November 2021 15:56:16(UTC)
Joakim_B

Denmark   
Joined: 27/12/2018(UTC)
Posts: 11
Location: Hovedstaden, Copenhagen
Dear group
Thank you for your supporting inputs!
After a long investigation I’m happy to inform you about that the issue now is solved.
One of the M83 (60832) was obviously defect and from time to time disturbs the network so much that the CS3 stated “Der decoder wird ausgelesen” and at the same time declared the S88 lines defect. After replacement of the defect M83 and also the establishment of a dedicated two wire line to the M83 inputs the problem has disappeared!
Have a nice and happy December
Joakim
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Offline marklinist5999  
#13 Posted : 30 November 2021 22:13:17(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 1,170
Location: Michigan, Troy
Wow! I'm curious, had the defective M83 ever make odd beeping sounds, either steady or intermittent? I have an old hobby M track turnout with a bylb mantern connected to one, and depending on the turnout's position does this. It hasn't yet caused any problem.
Online JohnjeanB  
#14 Posted : 30 November 2021 23:05:29(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,808
Location: Paris, France
Hi
The old style M83 (6083) with discrete components are easy to repair There is a later generation 6083 with SMDs (Surface Mounted Devices) which call for specialist equipment (hot air regulated gun) harder to repair.

The problem with 6083 is there is no fail-safe arrangement: they are waiting for the order coming from the CS1, CS2, CS3 or 6020 or 6021 to shut off the solenoid.
If this order is garbled (because of electrical noise or short c.) then the solenoid remains ON until the solenoids burns and becomes a short circuit which in turn burns the output transistor of the M83.
On newer decoders (60832, 60831) the solenoid is switched OFF no matter what after 500 mS. When programming a longer activation time (up to 5 s I think), the unit switches OFF every 500 mS and is then restarted thus sounding like a submachine gun
The advantage of these older units (6083) is that they could drive a 7051 crane just like that (as long as you push the button, the motor turns) which the newer 60831 or 60832 can't.
Sorry for the long explanation
Cheers
Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
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Offline Joakim_B  
#15 Posted : 01 December 2021 09:12:26(UTC)
Joakim_B

Denmark   
Joined: 27/12/2018(UTC)
Posts: 11
Location: Hovedstaden, Copenhagen
Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
Wow! I'm curious, had the defective M83 ever make odd beeping sounds, either steady or intermittent? I have an old hobby M track turnout with a bylb mantern connected to one, and depending on the turnout's position does this. It hasn't yet caused any problem.


Hi M5999, No, but I noticed that it emitted more "electronic sounds" (no beeping) than the other devices. My guess is that it was a "Monday production fault". But interesting that the fault was only present when locomotives vere active and with sound turned on. Confused
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Offline marklinist5999  
#16 Posted : 01 December 2021 12:43:58(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 1,170
Location: Michigan, Troy
Thanks for the explanations Jokam, and Jean! Mine are the newest ones.
Each Marklin Digital device includes an FCC for the USA notice that they can not interfere with certain military, municipal, or other govt. Frequencies.
Thus, they must be vulnerable to certain interference from those frequencies. So, could some also interfere with each other?
Just a thought.
Offline Joakim_B  
#17 Posted : 01 December 2021 13:30:52(UTC)
Joakim_B

Denmark   
Joined: 27/12/2018(UTC)
Posts: 11
Location: Hovedstaden, Copenhagen
Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
Thanks for the explanations Jokam, and Jean! Mine are the newest ones.
Each Marklin Digital device includes an FCC for the USA notice that they can not interfere with certain military, municipal, or other govt. Frequencies.
Thus, they must be vulnerable to certain interference from those frequencies. So, could some also interfere with each other?
Just a thought.


Hi again BigGrin
I do not believe that the interference are airborne. It is purely on/in the power/data lines.
Have a nice 1. December
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Offline H0  
#18 Posted : 01 December 2021 14:23:03(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,343
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
Each Marklin Digital device includes an FCC for the USA notice that they can not interfere with certain military, municipal, or other govt. Frequencies.
Not all Märklin items come with FCC approval. In some cases the manual indicates that the customer must obtain FCC approval for that item.

UserPostedImage
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline marklinist5999  
#19 Posted : 01 December 2021 15:08:57(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 1,170
Location: Michigan, Troy
Thtat's how they cover themselves from the US Pentagon should any trouble arise. It shifts the burden of responsibility to the US consumer.
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