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Offline mwarsell  
#1 Posted : 04 August 2021 20:36:07(UTC)
mwarsell


Joined: 04/08/2021(UTC)
Posts: 10
Hello,

My first post after buying a used set from late 60s-70s. Everything in their original boxes, looking good. However, after I tried plugging in the blue transformer (with three outs) I realized it's ungrounded and all I have in my apartment are grounded sockets. Is there a safe adapter to use to connect an ungrounded transformer to grounded wall out? I live in Finland.

Thanks.
Offline JohnjeanB  
#2 Posted : 04 August 2021 21:06:11(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,083
Location: Paris, France
Hello {no first name}
Welcome to the forum the hideout of Marklin fans.
Regarding your transfo and safety:
- if the transfo casing is metallic (6110 to 6013, 6000 to 6013) then there is a risk that a deteriorated connection inside may connect the metal casing with one of the hot points without tripping the differential protection at your power meter. I wouldn't let children with very metal case transfos (just my opinion).
- If the casing is plastic (6667 , 6671, 6631, 6627) then the risk is much smaller.

On fixed layout it is frequent to use one of these transfos screwed under the table, to feed lights, etc
Note: the very old Märklin Transfos like 280A and 278A (1948 to 1956), the power cord is rubber-coated that deteriorates with time and are now seriously dangerous until you replace the power cord.
Cheers
Jean
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by JohnjeanB
Offline mwarsell  
#3 Posted : 04 August 2021 21:22:49(UTC)
mwarsell


Joined: 04/08/2021(UTC)
Posts: 10
Thank you for the answer.

My transformer says 6496 nr 0501. So what is the case with this one? Actually not sure if it is metal or plastic.
Offline JohnjeanB  
#4 Posted : 04 August 2021 21:46:11(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,083
Location: Paris, France
Sorry I can't find this number 6496 in the Märklin catalogues I have
Jean
Offline kiwiAlan  
#5 Posted : 04 August 2021 21:56:48(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: mwarsell Go to Quoted Post
Thank you for the answer.

My transformer says 6496 nr 0501. So what is the case with this one? Actually not sure if it is metal or plastic.


a picture of it would help. Use the paper clip icon in the edit bar to attach it to your post.
Offline mwarsell  
#6 Posted : 04 August 2021 21:58:01(UTC)
mwarsell


Joined: 04/08/2021(UTC)
Posts: 10
Sorry, it's 6493.
Offline cookee_nz  
#7 Posted : 04 August 2021 22:26:40(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,948
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: mwarsell Go to Quoted Post
Thank you for the answer.

My transformer says 6496 nr 0501. So what is the case with this one? Actually not sure if it is metal or plastic.


Hi mwarsell,.... the difference between metal and plastic is very obvious. Just the feel and texture should give a clue, but if not, find a magnet.

If it sticks all over it's metal. If it does not stick, or maybe only in certain areas, it's plastic.

But as requested, a photo would tell a lot more

Regards

Steve
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
Offline mwarsell  
#8 Posted : 04 August 2021 22:44:05(UTC)
mwarsell


Joined: 04/08/2021(UTC)
Posts: 10
marklin transfo 6493.jpg

Hello,

Here's a pic, hopefully it helps.

Thank you for all the help so far. Yeah, it's metal.
Offline David Dewar  
#9 Posted : 04 August 2021 23:34:33(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,332
Location: Scotland
I would buy a new Marklin transformer. Why take a chance on old equipment which may or may not be safe.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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Offline mvd71  
#10 Posted : 05 August 2021 01:21:29(UTC)
mvd71

New Zealand   
Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,708
Location: Auckland,
Newer transformers are easily obtained on eBay for a good price. Anything with a plastic case is generally a safe bet. The blue transformers with plastic cases are easily identified as the area much lighter sky blue.

If you have an engineering or electrical background you could replace the power cable on the old transformer, but often the cost of buying new cable and plug exceeds the cost of a newer transformer.
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#11 Posted : 05 August 2021 02:04:04(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
most people have a box of cables from PCs/printers etc. grab one of those, cut the appliance end off, open up the metal transformer and connect it up.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#12 Posted : 05 August 2021 05:22:24(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
most people have a box of cables from PCs/printers etc. grab one of those, cut the appliance end off, open up the metal transformer and connect it up.


However, the forum owners and forum members are in no way liable if you follow this advice, i.e. it's at your own risk.
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Offline mwarsell  
#13 Posted : 05 August 2021 05:48:10(UTC)
mwarsell


Joined: 04/08/2021(UTC)
Posts: 10
Originally Posted by: David Dewar Go to Quoted Post
I would buy a new Marklin transformer. Why take a chance on old equipment which may or may not be safe.


Ok. Are the plastic transformers grounded? I have no use for ungrounded plugs.

It seems people are asking locally over 40€ for the plastic ones, like 6631. A bit much?
Offline cookee_nz  
#14 Posted : 05 August 2021 06:17:01(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,948
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: mwarsell Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: David Dewar Go to Quoted Post
I would buy a new Marklin transformer. Why take a chance on old equipment which may or may not be safe.


Ok. Are the plastic transformers grounded? I have no use for ungrounded plugs.

It seems people are asking locally over 40€ for the plastic ones, like 6631. A bit much?


You can't ground plastic. Most European Trafos will only have a 2-pin plug. All you need to confirm is your voltage (where are you located?), and the outlet pin configuration
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
Offline river6109  
#15 Posted : 05 August 2021 06:21:39(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
You have to ask yourself the question is YOUR LIFE worth more than Euro 40.00 ?
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline mike c  
#16 Posted : 05 August 2021 06:40:52(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
Hello,

As far as I know, there are no grounded Maerklin transformers. The newest models have polarized plugs, which can only be inserted in one direction, but they are not delivered with grounded plugs.

I seem to remember having a similar transformer from a Start Set purchased in 1971. The big worry with older transformers, as stated above, is that the insulation decays and causes a short, either between the two line cables, or allows one of the leads to contact the metal housing of the transformer, which if you touch it, makes you the conduit between the mains and the ground.

We are not talking about a 16VAC shock, but a 240 or 120VAC shock...

It is worthwhile to go out and try to find a current analog transformer. You can check with https://www.mke.de/artik...a_trafo_transformer.html or other dealer. There are a few who offer transformers taken from start sets at very good prices.

Regards

Mike C
Offline mwarsell  
#17 Posted : 05 August 2021 07:37:46(UTC)
mwarsell


Joined: 04/08/2021(UTC)
Posts: 10
Thanks.

I definitely won't use the old metal one as our mains (in Finland) even refuse to take it it, for a reason it's ungrounded. A grounded one or a thin europlug like I have seen on 6631 would work fine. Trying to find one.

But I'm pretty happy I found an early 70s set with two locos, maybe 7 carriages, about 30-35 pieces of track + some accessories for 90€. In their original boxes. Kept for decades in a dry warehouse. It even has the original info/sales pamphlet from 68/69 :)

Because I didn't pay much I think for the set, the 40€+ price for a plastic transfo seems high, altho, yes, my life probably worth more than that.

Btw the other loco (3029) seems to have detached the metal plate. I have the plate separate. Is it just a matter of screwing it in?
Offline cookee_nz  
#18 Posted : 05 August 2021 12:23:20(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,948
Location: Paremata, Wellington
This explains it all. Remarkably, your power supply is much the same as ours in NZ.

Finland.png

Here in NZ, we are ostensibly 230 / 240v @ 50 Hz, but our plug is quite different. Your existing Trafo looks to be a 220v version. You should be able find one for your specific country on your local Ebay or other auction site. Alternatively there is a good Facebook group for Märklin trades, as well as right here.

Regarding your existing Trafo, it dates from circa 1970 so it's not one of the really old-old ones. I believe it will have a safe PVC power cord rather than rubber (which is the one to really worry about).

It may actually still be quite safe, and if you know an electrician, or an appliance repair shop, they would be able to test it for you, and certify it if found to be safe. That may be cheaper than buying a new one? Something to consider anyway.

Note that it's only a 10VA which means it came with a starter set, fine for a single smaller Loco, small layout and maybe a light or two but that's about it. If your layout is larger, or you want to operate electric turnouts or other accessories, or have lighted coaches, then you'll likely need a higher capacity Trafo.

If you are decided to replace it, you should really aim for at least 32VA going forward.

Hope this helps

Steve
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
Offline DaleSchultz  
#19 Posted : 05 August 2021 18:36:59(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
most people have a box of cables from PCs/printers etc. grab one of those, cut the appliance end off, open up the metal transformer and connect it up.


However, the forum owners and forum members are in no way liable if you follow this advice, i.e. it's at your own risk.


That is exactly why I did not say what wires to connect where. If OP asks that then we we know he is incompetent at electrical wiring and we direct him to open his wallet.

I much prefer that approach to the pervasive competence prevention one.

Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline mwarsell  
#20 Posted : 05 August 2021 23:03:27(UTC)
mwarsell


Joined: 04/08/2021(UTC)
Posts: 10
Well...someone on a local auction site was selling a 30V 6631 transfo in good condition for 46€ so I decided to get that. Picked it up today. Quite expensive I think, but well worth the money since it will be safe. The old metal one I won't use since it's not grounded and I'm not an electricia to start wiring it. What was unexpected tho was how heavy it was even with the plastic cover. Heavier than the metal one from early 70s.

Thanks Steve & co. You have been very helpful.
Offline kiwiAlan  
#21 Posted : 06 August 2021 00:55:01(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: mwarsell Go to Quoted Post
Well...someone on a local auction site was selling a 30V 6631 transfo in good condition for 46€ so I decided to get that. Picked it up today. Quite expensive I think, but well worth the money since it will be safe. The old metal one I won't use since it's not grounded and I'm not an electricia to start wiring it. What was unexpected tho was how heavy it was even with the plastic cover. Heavier than the metal one from early 70s.

Thanks Steve & co. You have been very helpful.


The one you provided a picture of that came with the original set is only 10VA, I think you are saying the new one is 30VA, so capable of three times the power. This will mean the transformer will have at least three times the amount of iron in it, hence the weight.

Offline 1borna  
#22 Posted : 06 August 2021 21:18:56(UTC)
1borna

Croatia   
Joined: 21/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,340
Location: Hrvatska
10VA is barely enough for 1 larger locomotive, there is no reserve for powering some more switches, signals and lighting. At higher loads, it starts to heat up, so it should be switched off to cool down because higher temperatures could melt the insulation on the supply cable!
UserPostedImage
This is a slightly larger transformer than 16VA, you can see how the wire insulation melted
UserPostedImage
The most dangerous place is when attaching the supply cable because there is a breakthrough to the metal shield
UserPostedImage
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