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Offline Roland  
#1 Posted : 21 July 2021 16:27:45(UTC)
Roland

Canada   
Joined: 09/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 313
Location: Toronto, Canada
I'm trying to confirm my understanding of Viessmann signals and decoders prior to placing an order. Hoping someone who has set them up in the past can help clarify.

If I have a 4725 Entry signal (Main + Distant signal on the same mast) and 4723 Departure signals in my station sidings such as in the following (ignoring eastbound traffic)...

signal scenario.jpg

First, if I understand correctly from the manual, I would need one 5229 Multiplexer decoder for the 4725 (controls both the main and distant signal) and then two 52292 Multiplexers to control the four 4723 departure signals. Is this correct?

Second, and I should point out that I'm using Traincontroller software, when a train is entering from the right as in the above image, I'm trying to understand how TC will set the distant signal aspect on the Entry signal mast correctly depending on which of the four sidings the train is heading for and whether it will be stopping or passing through the station. Will the distant signal connected to the 5229 have it's own address that TC can send instructions to? Or do I actually need a 52292 to control the main and distant signals on the 4725?

Thanks in advance!
Roland
Offline Roland  
#2 Posted : 22 July 2021 16:46:07(UTC)
Roland

Canada   
Joined: 09/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 313
Location: Toronto, Canada
In reading (and re-reading) further, I think I've figured out the answer to my question. Viessmann 5229 Multiplexer is intended for a Hp/Main signal and it's preceeding Vr/distant signal which will automatically show the aspect based on the connected Hp signal.

When a distant signal is on the same mast (e.g for a 4725 entry signal), the distant signal needs to be connected to the following main signal's 5229 Vr port.

In my scenario where I'm using train control software and there are multiple main signals down the line, I think I need to connect every single main/Hp and distant/Vr signal to 52292 double Multiplexers so that they all have a unique address and my software can control the aspects of all of them.

Would greatly appreciate if there's anyone who can confirm this makes sense.

Thanks,
Roland
Offline marklinist5999  
#3 Posted : 22 July 2021 19:00:25(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 917
Location: Michigan, Troy
I have a Marklin combimation digital color light home/exit distant signal on one mast. I think the Viessmann decoders are nearly identical to marklin's. This is an AC system you have? I think Viessman also has both hobby and digital signals like Marklin, meaning you control the latter with an M84 decoder, or a Viessmann equivalent.
The Marklin 76496 signal I have has an external decoder. All the lights function on both signals on the mast alone. You can connect an additional entry distant signal to it, and a further distant signal after it. I presume the Viessmann ones in conjunction with their seperate decoders you can as well, but don't need to. Read the manual for the singal and the decoder when used together. It should tell you. You can view the user manuals online without having the items at hand.
The combination signals use two addresses. One for the home signal, and another for the distant. So, either you select the MM setting, and code the first address with the dip switches, then the decoder selects a second consecutive address for the distant signal on the mast. Or you can select the DCC setiing, which gives you more possible addresses.
Then you can assign an address higher than any of your locomotives to avoid confusion. Say you set the first address at 100, the decoder will assign 101 for the distant part of the signal.
With Marklin MFX signals, you can let the sytem choose the address. It will not assign an address already in use. I am not certain if the Viessman's do it as well, but their signals are Marklin digital compatible.
Offline Roland  
#4 Posted : 22 July 2021 19:31:48(UTC)
Roland

Canada   
Joined: 09/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 313
Location: Toronto, Canada
Thanks for the response.

Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
This is an AC system you have?

No - signals will be digitally powered by my CS3.

Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
Read the manual for the singal and the decoder when used together.


The manuals cover the scenario with a single main signal and one corresponding distant signal but (unless I've missed something) do not clearly cover the scenario with a distant signal associated with multiple main signals (like my diagram above). That's what I'm hoping to clarify.


Offline Goofy  
#5 Posted : 22 July 2021 20:38:22(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,434
Why don´t you visit Viessmanns homepage and download multiplex decoder to read the manual?
CS3...H0...
Offline Roland  
#6 Posted : 22 July 2021 20:44:27(UTC)
Roland

Canada   
Joined: 09/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 313
Location: Toronto, Canada
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Why don´t you visit Viessmanns homepage and download multiplex decoder to read the manual?


Reading before posting is a great suggestion... As I stated multiple times above.

Originally Posted by: Roland Go to Quoted Post
...if I understand correctly from the manual...


Originally Posted by: Roland Go to Quoted Post
In reading (and re-reading) further...


Originally Posted by: Roland Go to Quoted Post
The manuals cover the scenario with a single main signal and one corresponding distant signal but (unless I've missed something) do not clearly cover the scenario with a distant signal associated with multiple main signals (like my diagram above).


I'm posting to hoping get some clarification on the vague details provided in the manual for this scenario.
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Offline marklinist5999  
#7 Posted : 22 July 2021 21:55:09(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 917
Location: Michigan, Troy
Roland, as Marklin and Viessmann are partners in projects like the new ballast tamper, etc., and I bet there is no difference in both their analog signals, you should be able to control them with M84 decoders. They are configurable via the CS3 for up to 8 addresses. There are 4 signal output terminals, plus 4 accesory terminals. I bet you can assign 2 addresses per output. Even if you program the addresses for two or more signals used in the same block in MM mode, you can switch back to DCC mode afterward, and visa versa.
This is done for them on an MS2 for example. Trainguy on youtube has a good video on signals, etc. He is German, but his English is very clear. Just search Marklin 76496 and he is one of the results. He also has one on setting up contact tracs.
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#8 Posted : 22 July 2021 22:36:01(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,855
Hang in there Roland, I understand the issue but I did not use the newer multiplex signals so I don't know the answer you need.
I have often wondered how other software expects to handle this situation. When I ran into this I had to write all the code myself to handle multiple main signals for a single distant signal as I control my layout with my own software so I had to implement a solution from scratch.

I suspect any solution will lie in the software. If I recall correctly, when I set a route, I set the signals moving logically backwards from the destination, to where the train is. When dealing with a stretch of track that contains a distance signal I set it to the aspect of the last signal I set. Hopefully Traincontroller can do something similar for you.

There may not be an off the shelf solution, because as you can see most people do not even understand the problem, never mind the solution.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
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Offline Roland  
#9 Posted : 22 July 2021 22:43:37(UTC)
Roland

Canada   
Joined: 09/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 313
Location: Toronto, Canada
Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
Roland, as Marklin and Viessmann are partners in projects like the new ballast tamper, etc., and I bet there is no difference in both their analog signals, you should be able to control them with M84 decoders. They are configurable via the CS3 for up to 8 addresses. There are 4 signal output terminals, plus 4 accesory terminals. I bet you can assign 2 addresses per output. Even if you program the addresses for two or more signals used in the same block in MM mode, you can switch back to DCC mode afterward, and visa versa.
This is done for them on an MS2 for example. Trainguy on youtube has a good video on signals, etc. He is German, but his English is very clear. Just search Marklin 76496 and he is one of the results. He also has one on setting up contact tracs.


Hi marklinist. I agree, the configuration is likely the same for both. Thing is Marklin decoders are generally more expensive than Viessmann equivalents so I'd prefer to stick with Viessmann. Plus these are multiplex signals I'm referencing above at which have a simplified and proprietary Viessmann connector.

Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
Hang in there Roland, I understand the issue but I did not use the newer multiplex signals so I don't know the answer you need.
I have often wondered how other software expects to handle this situation. When I ran into this I had to write all the code myself to handle multiple main signals for a single distant signal as I control my layout with my own software so I had to implement a solution from scratch.

I suspect any solution will lie in the software. If I recall correctly, when I set a route, I set the signals moving logically backwards from the destination, to where the train is. When dealing with a stretch of track that contains a distance signal I set it to the aspect of the last signal I set. Hopefully Traincontroller can do something similar for you.

There may not be an off the shelf solution, because as you can see most people do not even understand the problem, never mind the solution.


Hi Dale. I began to have the same suspicion as you this afternoon (software being where the logic needs to exist) and so I did some reading in the TrainController manual and I think I've got a good enough understanding now. The decoder just needs to provide each signal with a unique address and the software "should" take care of the aspects. I think I'm going to purchase an entry signal and two departure signals for now and just test it with TrainController for myself. Will share the results I find.

Thanks to you both for the replies.
Offline DaleSchultz  
#10 Posted : 23 July 2021 00:38:18(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,855
good plan!
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline blid  
#11 Posted : 23 July 2021 10:06:40(UTC)
blid

Sweden   
Joined: 02/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 185
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
I have TrainController Gold and solved a similar problem by defining a dummy signal (with a proper address but not existing). The distant signal refers to this non existing signal. In condition for the dummy signal I specified the different aspects according to the turnout and the signal the turnout is currently pointing at. I my case only one turnout but this principle should work for you as well.
CS2, 60215, 4x60174, C-tracks, LDT HSI-88, TC Gold. OneGauge Marklin and MTH, ESU ECoS 2.1 on LGB tracks. MTH 3-rail 0-gauge, DCS on GarGraves tracks. Z: Rokuhan tracks, analog or DCC+TC.
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Offline Roland  
#12 Posted : 23 July 2021 14:56:22(UTC)
Roland

Canada   
Joined: 09/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 313
Location: Toronto, Canada
Originally Posted by: blid Go to Quoted Post
I have TrainController Gold and solved a similar problem by defining a dummy signal (with a proper address but not existing). The distant signal refers to this non existing signal. In condition for the dummy signal I specified the different aspects according to the turnout and the signal the turnout is currently pointing at. I my case only one turnout but this principle should work for you as well.


Thanks blid. I'll definitely have to look into this further.

I find it strange because this is surely a very common scenario: an entry signal to any station with distant signal on mast that should show aspects for 2 or more sidings ahead.

Offline blid  
#13 Posted : 23 July 2021 22:28:42(UTC)
blid

Sweden   
Joined: 02/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 185
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Not that I think you need it but I will give a more detailed description anyway.
I will call the first turnout after signal “E” “T1”. The next “T2” and the double slip “X3”. The top distant departure signal “D1” and those below “D2”, “D3” and “D4”.
First a non existing signal “N1” is registered to the controller and introduced to TrainController. N1 is then set as the only distant signal at E. Finally the aspects of N1 is set thru “Condition” in TC (not available in Bronze version I think).
Green aspect
if T1 straight and T2 thrown and D1 green
or T1 straight and T2 straight and D2 green
or T1 thrown and X3 thrown and D3 green
or T1 thrown and X3 straight and D4 green
Yellow aspect
if T1 straight and T2 thrown and D1 yellow
or T1 straight and T2 straight and D2 yellow
or T1 thrown and X3 thrown and D3 yellow
or T1 thrown and X3 straight and D4 yellow
Red aspect
if T1 straight and T2 thrown and D1 red
or T1 straight and T2 straight and D2 red
or T1 thrown and X3 thrown and D3 red
or T1 thrown and X3 straight and D4 red
CS2, 60215, 4x60174, C-tracks, LDT HSI-88, TC Gold. OneGauge Marklin and MTH, ESU ECoS 2.1 on LGB tracks. MTH 3-rail 0-gauge, DCS on GarGraves tracks. Z: Rokuhan tracks, analog or DCC+TC.
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Offline Roland  
#14 Posted : 23 July 2021 23:08:03(UTC)
Roland

Canada   
Joined: 09/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 313
Location: Toronto, Canada
Thanks blid for the explanation. Makes a lot of sense. Only thing is that my diagram above was just a simple sample to explain my scenario. In reality I have 7 sidings in my main station, 6 turnouts and 4 double-slips between the entry signal and each of the 7 departure signals. That works out to a lot of possible permutations :)

I'll have to get around to testing if TC "Runs" have the logic to set the distant signal properly based on the destination block and signal in the "Run". If not, I'll test out your dummy signal with conditions method as well.
Offline Goofy  
#15 Posted : 24 July 2021 11:18:53(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,434
Originally Posted by: Roland Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Why don´t you visit Viessmanns homepage and download multiplex decoder to read the manual?


Reading before posting is a great suggestion... As I stated multiple times above.

Originally Posted by: Roland Go to Quoted Post
...if I understand correctly from the manual...


Originally Posted by: Roland Go to Quoted Post
In reading (and re-reading) further...


Originally Posted by: Roland Go to Quoted Post
The manuals cover the scenario with a single main signal and one corresponding distant signal but (unless I've missed something) do not clearly cover the scenario with a distant signal associated with multiple main signals (like my diagram above).


I'm posting to hoping get some clarification on the vague details provided in the manual for this scenario.


I did read the manual of the 5229 multiplex and it stand clear how you shall connect and program the multiplex for the signal and distant signal.
Viessmann do also have a signal book to shop.
It stand a lot of information about signals and how to use multiplex.

CS3...H0...
Offline marklinist5999  
#16 Posted : 24 July 2021 12:07:07(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 917
Location: Michigan, Troy
With the 4 aspect home/exit distant signal, if a second is connected, the main signal depicts what the other shows in unison. In either scenario, wether with it or without, the distant signal is off when the home signal is red. The distant signal is set to green, or green/yellow as procede with caution.
When the home signal is set to red with white, shunting is allowed, thus track block power is live. Then the distant signal shows green/yellow, procede with caution.
Offline blid  
#17 Posted : 24 July 2021 13:32:25(UTC)
blid

Sweden   
Joined: 02/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 185
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
When I talked about defining a non existing signal a simpler way of putting it is; create a unique digital address for the existing distant signal on the entry signal mast. And yes Roland, TC calculates the appropriate distant signal aspect when trains are running. I searched the TC Gold/Silver version 9 manual for “distant signal” and found it in a chapter I haven’t bothered to read: 14.7 Prototypical Signaling. On top of page 303 it says that, instead of my long condition, a single line in the trigger of each aspect will do. But it does NOT show how the internally calculated aspect is set as a trigger. Maybe a question for the TC Forum?
If you figure it out, please let us know.
CS2, 60215, 4x60174, C-tracks, LDT HSI-88, TC Gold. OneGauge Marklin and MTH, ESU ECoS 2.1 on LGB tracks. MTH 3-rail 0-gauge, DCS on GarGraves tracks. Z: Rokuhan tracks, analog or DCC+TC.
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Offline blid  
#18 Posted : 24 July 2021 15:35:09(UTC)
blid

Sweden   
Joined: 02/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 185
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
I have found it but not tested it.
For the distant signal, with the unique digital address, you select the block in “Trigger”. Almost at the end of the drop down selections for “block” there is “Distant Signal …”. You have to click on the triangle/arrow to the left to get next window to open. I first clicked on the text and assumed it was not active. In the next window you chose what to trigger the chosen aspect. It is suggested to leave one aspect empty as “else” function. I suggest the red.
CS2, 60215, 4x60174, C-tracks, LDT HSI-88, TC Gold. OneGauge Marklin and MTH, ESU ECoS 2.1 on LGB tracks. MTH 3-rail 0-gauge, DCS on GarGraves tracks. Z: Rokuhan tracks, analog or DCC+TC.
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Offline UliSG  
#19 Posted : 25 July 2021 21:12:59(UTC)
UliSG

Germany   
Joined: 25/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 1
Location: Nordrhein-Westfalen, Dusseldorf
Dear Roland,
even the german part of the 52292 manual did leave me a little bit confused at first. I think you will need 4 adress values for your 4725 (2 for the home and 2 for the distant signal).
According to the chapter 5.10 example (2 parts 4725 connected to the 52292 and independent operation selected) the first home-signal will get 9+10 (controlled as usual), the first distant signal will get 11+12. I hope this will not inhibit the mask function (mentioned in 2.2)?
Now your software must decide which of the four 4723 home signals is associated to this distant signal (-> turnout positions at this particular time) and copy it's condition into 11+12. If the second signal is of type 4723, it will need only 2 additional adress values and the 52292 should autoselect 13+14.

If you don't want consecutive pairs of address values, you have to use manual programming.

I hope this was a little bit heplful...
Regards
Ulrich




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Offline Roland  
#20 Posted : 25 July 2021 21:41:12(UTC)
Roland

Canada   
Joined: 09/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 313
Location: Toronto, Canada
Originally Posted by: UliSG Go to Quoted Post
Dear Roland,
even the german part of the 52292 manual did leave me a little bit confused at first. I think you will need 4 adress values for your 4725 (2 for the home and 2 for the distant signal).
According to the chapter 5.10 example (2 parts 4725 connected to the 52292 and independent operation selected) the first home-signal will get 9+10 (controlled as usual), the first distant signal will get 11+12. I hope this will not inhibit the mask function (mentioned in 2.2)?
Now your software must decide which of the four 4723 home signals is associated to this distant signal (-> turnout positions at this particular time) and copy it's condition into 11+12. If the second signal is of type 4723, it will need only 2 additional adress values and the 52292 should autoselect 13+14.

If you don't want consecutive pairs of address values, you have to use manual programming.

I hope this was a little bit heplful...
Regards
Ulrich


Vielen dank Ulrich. This is exactly what I'll need to test when I get my signals and decoders. The software surely must have the logic to associate with the proper home/main signal ahead. And the masking capability as well (I would hope). It might be a bit before I'm able to test but I will eventually. I think I'll take blid's advice and ask on the TC forum in the meantime.

Mfg,
Roland
Offline Goofy  
#21 Posted : 27 July 2021 14:49:45(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,434
I bought a train magazine and this is a bible for the train enthusiasm! ThumpUp
DSC_0004.JPG
CS3...H0...
Offline French_Fabrice  
#22 Posted : 28 July 2021 17:57:39(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,382
Location: Lyon, France
Hello Roland,

I've used such similar configuration with same signals.

Most of what you have to know has been written in post #13 and #19.

A 4725 will use 4 consecutive addresses (2 for the main and 2 for the advanced), and a 4723 will use only 2 consecutive addresses. You can plug each signal either in a 5229 or a 52292. However the advanced plug of the 5229 is of no use in this case, because of the complexity of possible routes.

The logic will be managed by the software, as it is too complex depending on the 4 possible routes a train can take after the entry signal.
This is what I call "dynamically managed advanced signal".

As an example, you can look there: https://www.marklin-user...-managed-advanced-signal
It is a study I did a long time ago, and it is specific to Rocrail. You'll have to find out the equivalent concepts in TC, but I'm sure it is feasible.

Good luck.
Fabrice
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Offline Roland  
#23 Posted : 28 July 2021 18:34:47(UTC)
Roland

Canada   
Joined: 09/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 313
Location: Toronto, Canada
Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Go to Quoted Post
Hello Roland,

I've used such similar configuration with same signals.

Most of what you have to know has been written in post #13 and #19.

A 4725 will use 4 consecutive addresses (2 for the main and 2 for the advanced), and a 4723 will use only 2 consecutive addresses. You can plug each signal either in a 5229 or a 52292. However the advanced plug of the 5229 is of no use in this case, because of the complexity of possible routes.

The logic will be managed by the software, as it is too complex depending on the 4 possible routes a train can take after the entry signal.
This is what I call "dynamically managed advanced signal".

As an example, you can look there: https://www.marklin-user...-managed-advanced-signal
It is a study I did a long time ago, and it is specific to Rocrail. You'll have to find out the equivalent concepts in TC, but I'm sure it is feasible.

Good luck.
Fabrice


Hi Fabrice, thank you for the very informative post and link! TrainController does have the ability to reserve / look ahead 2 blocks (or even more) so I should be all good there.

From your linked thread...
Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Go to Quoted Post
A Viessmann 4725 signal (3 aspects main signal & 3 aspects advanced signal on same mast) for the entry signal + a Viessmann 5229 decoder. The main signal and advanced signal have separated addresses.


Can you confirm this means the 5229 is able to assign a separate address to the attached Vr/advanced signal? I got the impression that was not possible. The 52292 decoder can do this.

Thanks!
Roland
Offline French_Fabrice  
#24 Posted : 28 July 2021 19:09:16(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,382
Location: Lyon, France
Hello Roland,

As far as I remember, yes it is possible.

All my 5229 have the DIP switch 1 to ON, and all others to OFF.

For example, the entry signal 4725 on Trossingen III layout has DCC addresses 417 and 418 for main and 419 and 420 for advanced on same mast.
As there is only one plug coming out from the signal, the signal plug (female) is connected to the Hp socket (male) of the 5229 decoder. The Vr socket is not used.

I don't remember exactly how I programmed it, and more precisely if I hit only address 417 and it was done, or if I hit address 417 for main, then address 419 for advanced. I did it many years ago... sorry.
But there is no doubt 4 addresses are used for the whole main+advanced.

Cheers
Fabrice

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Offline Roland  
#25 Posted : 28 July 2021 19:57:36(UTC)
Roland

Canada   
Joined: 09/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 313
Location: Toronto, Canada
Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Go to Quoted Post
As there is only one plug coming out from the signal, the signal plug (female) is connected to the Hp socket (male) of the 5229 decoder. The Vr socket is not used.


This is really good to know (and something I wouldnt' have found out until actually buying my signals). I mistakenly had the impression the on mast Vr signal would have plugged into the Vr port.

Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Go to Quoted Post
I don't remember exactly how I programmed it, and more precisely if I hit only address 417 and it was done, or if I hit address 417 for main, then address 419 for advanced. I did it many years ago... sorry.
But there is no doubt 4 addresses are used for the whole main+advanced.


Many thanks again. Just had a quick look in the 5229 manual and it seems you configure the first address while the other 3 are automatically the successive 3 addresses if the signal in the Hp port requires 4 addresses.
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#26 Posted : 28 July 2021 22:01:13(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,855
for those interested, here is a video I made of my software handling:

Single Vr going to multiple Hp signals
Multiple Vr signals going to a single Hp




Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
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