 Joined: 09/11/2013(UTC) Posts: 335 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Quick question for the DB signal gurus out there. In the following diagram I'm trying to confirm if a signal is needed at the red "?", and if so, which one?  Trains can enter "Track 4" from the west or from the branch line but will only ever depart heading east (either on the main line or the branch line). Given that no train will ever depart "track 4" heading west, is a signal needed at all? If yes, a departure signal or is there some other signal for this scenario? Thanks in advance, Roland |
My Layout Build | Märklin CS3+ | K-track | Merkur | Viessmann | LDT | iTrain | Modeling primarily DB EpIV-VI
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 1 user liked this useful post by Roland
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 Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC) Posts: 3,997
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I would say yes, because a train entering from the branch line needs to be told to stop at the western end of track 4. It could be a block signal. If no signal was there the driver could legally enter the mainline. In your operations that signal would always be red (Hp0).
I am sure that prototypically we would also find at least small shunting signals (Sh) where the red ? is as well as at the east end of tracks 1 and 2. This would enable a locomotive to uncouple and run around to the other end of the train, or a defective loco to be pulled away etc. Even though not a 'train' departing, a loco may need to perform a shunting operation.
Also trains break down, etc. So any operational movement that could be imagined would probably have a signal in real life to prevent and allow such movement.
(I also skipped some departure signals on my main station (for reasons of expense) as I also only run trains one way myself.) |
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3 users liked this useful post by DaleSchultz
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Joined: 09/11/2013(UTC) Posts: 335 Location: Toronto, Canada
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I was wondering if maybe there was some sort of "one way" sign that might be posted at the west end of that track similar to the road sign.
I didn't include stop/shunting signals in the diagram but yes they are in my plans and I would have one at the west end of track 4 if I don't have a main signal capable of sh0/sh1. |
My Layout Build | Märklin CS3+ | K-track | Merkur | Viessmann | LDT | iTrain | Modeling primarily DB EpIV-VI
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2 users liked this useful post by Roland
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Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC) Posts: 3,882 Location: Michigan, Troy
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Signalls are cool! I don't have nut two. A 7039 analog home mast signal, and a brand new this week 76496 home/exit-distance combo. I understand that the newest signal method for the DB is no signals along routes for the newest lines and locomotives, but they are displayed on the train drivers console.
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Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC) Posts: 3,997
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so if you are planning on Sh signals then you may as well do Hp0/1 Sh0/1 combinations. Since the Hp part will typically stay Hp0 you can save money by hard wiring it to Hp0 and save the cost of the decoder/switching gear.
I bought a defective semaphore signal at a train show that won't change, so it will be installed just outside a tunnel entrance of some one way track. |
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1 user liked this useful post by DaleSchultz
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Joined: 09/11/2013(UTC) Posts: 335 Location: Toronto, Canada
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That's my plan B but I'm hoping to confirm what's prototypical for this scenario if possible. |
My Layout Build | Märklin CS3+ | K-track | Merkur | Viessmann | LDT | iTrain | Modeling primarily DB EpIV-VI
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1 user liked this useful post by Roland
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 Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC) Posts: 5,842 Location: Hybrid Home
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Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC) Posts: 5,842 Location: Hybrid Home
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I educated myself. The magic German word is: “Flankenschutzumkehr”.  http://railsignalling.or....php?title=FlankenschutzNormally there should be a locking signal permanently lighted red between track 704 and turnout 712. Since this is expensive and „useless“ (because always in the same position), it can be omitted when local regulations stipulate that track 704 must not be used for shunting movements. |
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1 user liked this useful post by Alsterstreek
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Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC) Posts: 5,842 Location: Hybrid Home
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But: At the end of a train run there should be a stop signal, e.g., at least a red Sh2 panel on top of a buffer stop of a passenger terminus - see pic.  So, if a train is to stop and reverse on your track #4, there should be a red signal: (1) to stop the train; (2) to secure train movements on the lateral track #3. |
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 Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC) Posts: 8,464 Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
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Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek  But: At the end of a train run there should be a stop signal, e.g., at least a red Sh2 panel on top of a buffer stop of a passenger terminus - see pic. So, if a train is to stop and reverse on your track #4, there should be a red signal: (1) to stop the train; (2) to secure train movements on the lateral track #3. Looks like that one has been bumped into a few times ... Reminds me of the train that didn't stop at the terminus in Wellington NZ, must have been 1968. But as to the signal, i would have thought there would be at least one similar to that mounted on this buffer, probably mounted on a pole, as a representative stop signal. Then if a loco needs to go past it to do a run around or whatever, there needs to be an official to wave them on past the stop signal, or some form of shunting signal if it is a move likely to happen regularly.
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1 user liked this useful post by kiwiAlan
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 Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC) Posts: 2,261 Location: Hobart, Australia
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Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Looks like that one has been bumped into a few times ... Reminds me of the train that didn't stop at the terminus in Wellington NZ, must have been 1968. ... And more recently in 2014 :  I guess amongst that rubble is the buffer stop. But then, the driver was on the weed  , see here: https://www.stuff.co.nz/...iver-had-smoked-cannabisAll the reason why the Sommerfeldt construction manual (reflecting prototype railway engineering rules) says not to put the terminal overhead masts directly behind a buffer stop !  Amazingly there was an almost identical incident at the same station the year before (2013) . 
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2 users liked this useful post by PJMärklin
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Joined: 09/11/2013(UTC) Posts: 335 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek I educated myself. The magic German word is: “Flankenschutzumkehr”. http://railsignalling.or....php?title=FlankenschutzNormally there should be a locking signal permanently lighted red between track 704 and turnout 712. Since this is expensive and „useless“ (because always in the same position), it can be omitted when local regulations stipulate that track 704 must not be used for shunting movements. I believe I understand the concept but I'm not certain exactly what signal/sign combination for my scenario. I will allow a shunting loco to leave Track 4 westbound, so maybe it's a shunting stop signal plus the Sh2 panel as you suggested. I'll keep digging to see if I can find an real-life example of this scenario. Thanks, Roland |
My Layout Build | Märklin CS3+ | K-track | Merkur | Viessmann | LDT | iTrain | Modeling primarily DB EpIV-VI
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1 user liked this useful post by Roland
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Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC) Posts: 8,464 Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
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Originally Posted by: PJMärklin Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan
Reminds me of the train that didn't stop at the terminus in Wellington NZ, must have been 1968.
...
And more recently in 2014 : I think that one is at Melling IIRC. The one I am thinking of is when the Hutt Valley peak hour commuter trains used an articulated English Electric loco and very old wooden coaches as there were not enough of the EMU trains to handle peak hour. The story seemed to be that an unknown person had closed the cock on the brake line somewhere near the front of the train with the result that the only braking operating when the driver tried to stop was on the loco. Inevitably it overran the buffer stop and ended up with the front of the loco against the platform roof at the base of the platforms. Doesn't seem to be anything about it on the web at all.
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Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC) Posts: 3,997
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well, to be prototypical, one would add "Schutzweichen" (catch points/turnouts). These protect the mainline by being interlocked with signals on the non-branch lines. If the exit signals are red, the Schutzweichen are straight, so any train going past the red signal cannot enter the mainline and cause a major train accident. Schutzweichen are often also tilted with the rail furthest from the mainline lower so that the offending train will roll over away from the mainline. When between busy lines, the track drops into a sand pit, essentially an arrester bed. So, whether you install Schutzweichen or not, here is what I think is needed to look prototypical.  Not that it is still not 100% symmetrical as there are only entry signals in the two direction you plan on using. Note that installing the Schutzweichen does add the cost of extra turnouts, but they don't have to be motorized if you can overlook the position of the tongues. |
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1 user liked this useful post by DaleSchultz
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Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,442
Location: DE-NW
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Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz well, to be prototypical, one would add "Schutzweichen" (catch points/turnouts). I cannot say when, where, and why Schutzweichen are used, but they are not used everywhere. So without Schutzweichen it can still be prototypical. |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS  |
1 user liked this useful post by H0
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Joined: 09/11/2013(UTC) Posts: 335 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Thank you all for the feedback. Unfortunately without some significant changes, I won't be able to incorporate the Schutzweiche for Track 4. The drawing I posted up is a simplified version of what that area actually looks like. I'll likely just stick with trying to place the correct signal. Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz For Track 1, train traffic will only ever enter from the east and is permitted to exit westbound. Would those Schutzweichen still be necessary? If I understand correctly they are not required for shunting, only scheduled train traffic? |
My Layout Build | Märklin CS3+ | K-track | Merkur | Viessmann | LDT | iTrain | Modeling primarily DB EpIV-VI
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Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC) Posts: 3,997
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well as Tom points out (and what I forgot to say), is that any talk of prototype depends on the era being reproduced. I don't recall when Schutzweichen become the norm.
I think that even though traffic in not intended to depart eastward from track 1 (on your layout) in the prototype, they would be very unlikely to ever rule that shunting can't happen there. If a vehicle can move in that direction (and all vehicles on a rail can do so - even without power) then the Schutzweiche makes sense.
Shutzweichen are probably more important for shunting than anything else.
Imagine a train is arriving from the east and is stopping on track 2.
At the same time a train in track 1 is departing westwards.
Should all be fine, but if the train on track 1 goes the wrong way... then it will run into the side of the arriving train. Shit happens (and more often in models!) This is preventable with the Schutzweiche.
So I maintain that:
a) given any turnout that joins two tracks together you will likely have a signal on each line protecting the other.
b) any track with a signal protecting a busy (mainline) will also have a Schutzweiche (space permitting) to physically prevent a rail vehicle from running through the red and getting onto the busy line.
If your aim is to make it look realistic/prototypical then what you place on the layout may exceed you actual model operations. |
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1 user liked this useful post by DaleSchultz
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Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,442
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Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz well as Tom points out (and what I forgot to say), is that any talk of prototype depends on the era being reproduced. I don't recall when Schutzweichen become the norm. Not just that. Even today you can still find stations that do not have Schutzweichen. If Schutzweichen were not required when the station was built, then it will still exist without Schutzweichen. |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS |
1 user liked this useful post by H0
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Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC) Posts: 5,842 Location: Hybrid Home
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Originally Posted by: Roland I'll keep digging to see if I can find an real-life example of this scenario. Good luck ! |
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1 user liked this useful post by Alsterstreek
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Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC) Posts: 5,842 Location: Hybrid Home
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To avoid copyright infringements (by posting track plans here), I suggest to look at below four stations with similar track arrangements. Google for: (1) "Bf. W.-Rauenthal, Trennungs-Bf. Gleisplan“ (2) "Hillesheim Eifel Gleisplan“ Check Dombühl track plan under: http://www.woernitz-franken.de/domb.htmCheck Friedrichsdorf (Taunus) 1960 track plan under: http://www.lahnbahn.de/b/frdf.htmSometimes signal positions are shown, sometimes not. |
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1 user liked this useful post by Alsterstreek
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Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC) Posts: 5,842 Location: Hybrid Home
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Tornesch northwest of Hamburg is a station where a single track branch line joins a double track mainline. Scroll down to the third photo to see how branch line traffic is kept from entering the main line - with a Sh2 panel planted on the railhead ... : http://www.larsbrueggema...09-bahnhof-tornesch.htmlAnd then the Sankt Michaelisdonn track plan (especially the "streamlined" 1986 one) with a arrangment which is very similar to yours makes it clear that a main signal is needed to keep branch line traffic off the double track mainline: http://www.sporenplan.nl/html_de/index.htmlNavigation path: Gleispläne -> click on Germany ("D") -> Original Zeichnungen Schleswig-Holstein -> Sankt Michaelisdonn |
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1 user liked this useful post by Alsterstreek
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Joined: 09/11/2013(UTC) Posts: 335 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek And then the Sankt Michaelisdonn track plan (especially the "streamlined" 1986 one) with a arrangment which is very similar to yours makes it clear that a main signal is needed to keep branch line traffic off the double track mainline: http://www.sporenplan.nl/html_de/index.htmlNavigation path: Gleispläne -> click on Germany ("D") -> Original Zeichnungen Schleswig-Holstein -> Sankt Michaelisdonn Excellent - thank you! |
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1 user liked this useful post by Roland
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Joined: 15/09/2015(UTC) Posts: 107 Location: Queensland
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The answer to that is quite clearly yes
It would be required in most if not all states in Australia because you wouldn't want a train to either block the mainline or another train to enter the siding if one was already standing
there
Depending on the duristiction there would be an enrty signal displaying HPO O stop and since you would have to proceed slowy over the point it would also have to pisplay HP 2
If there is shunting permit with in the block you would also need a shunt signal
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1 user liked this useful post by Bones
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Joined: 23/05/2021(UTC) Posts: 252 Location: England, Guildford
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British Railways now Network Rail are forever changing the Signalling Principles and most changes are not retrospective. Trap points (schutzweichen) were once the norm to give Flank Protection but in the penny pinching days of late 80’s and 90’s they felt that they could skip them in new schemes. This was responsible for a head on collision on the newly singled Uckfield branch when a driver passed a red and went onto the single line with a train coming the other way.
Nowadays on NR they have TPWS (train protection warning system) which shares features withe German Indusi equipment, it both checks speed and if a train overspeeds or passes a red it applies the brakes.
One principle is that there must always be something to mark the end of a signalled route, could be stopblock red (or even white) lamp, a limit of shunt board (now two fixed red lights separated horizontally) or another running signal which could be a fixed red.
Just been looking through the 1957 edition of Märklin’s Gleispläne Spur HO track plan book (helpfully in three languages) which shews the signals required for all the illustrated plans. Of course they may have ‘gone over the top’ with the amount of signals to encourage sales!
ChrisG
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1 user liked this useful post by Mman
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