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Offline H0  
#1 Posted : 18 June 2021 09:40:57(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,254
Location: DE-NW
German government wants all "train kilometres" to be electric or climate-neutral by 2050. More trains powered by catenary, batteries, or fuel cells.

Article in German:
https://www.t-online.de/...-der-deutschen-bahn.html
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Online marklinist5999  
#2 Posted : 18 June 2021 13:45:28(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 954
Location: Michigan, Troy
Power outages do occur, weather by equipment breakdown, or construction and weather. Therefore, If I were a railroad top level manager, I would keep some hybrid motive power in the system. Vectrons can be ordered with "Last mile" diesel or elecrtric power. A diesel electric loc. such as the br 66 etc. would need much modification to install a pantograph or two.
Offline kiwiAlan  
#3 Posted : 18 June 2021 14:58:46(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 6,279
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
German government wants all "train kilometres" to be electric or climate-neutral by 2050. More trains powered by catenary, batteries, or fuel cells.

Article in German:
https://www.t-online.de/...-der-deutschen-bahn.html


I guess 'last mile' diesels come under the 'climate neutral' umbrella.

They have tried doing this in the UK as well. The major infrastructure project has been to electrify the Great Western Railway tracks that run west from London out to Swindon and on to South Wales. They were having great problems, and the work was getting way behind and running well over budget. They have got as far as Didcot where I live and have run out of money to go any further.

One of the problems was (according to one of my fellow local club members) that when the track was installed many years ago they had problems with built up road bed collapsing or getting washed out, so large amounts of concrete were used to shore it up, and this wasn't documented. So when the electrification construction crews came along they were supposed to be putting in bases for around a mile of overhead masts, but were only managing to drill down to do the foundations for a couple of masts each night.

Well, I guess it is best of luck to the DB in their efforts. will they still allow Steam specials? I guess the Harz will carry on, they have lots of forest to absorb the carbon ... BigGrin

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Offline IanC  
#4 Posted : 19 June 2021 10:50:14(UTC)
IanC

United Kingdom   
Joined: 05/03/2016(UTC)
Posts: 233
Location: England, Bedford
Main line electrification from London St Pancras to Sheffield has been halted at Bedford, only 50 miles north of London. The commuter spur to Corby will still be electrified though. New build East - West Rail Oxford - MK - Bedford - Cambridge will not be electrified at construction stage.

IanC


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Offline TrainIride  
#5 Posted : 20 June 2021 19:55:08(UTC)
TrainIride

France   
Joined: 23/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,710
Location: FRANCE
I suggest third rail BigGrin

Best regards
Joël
Offline kiwiAlan  
#6 Posted : 20 June 2021 21:01:04(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 6,279
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: TrainIride Go to Quoted Post
I suggest third rail BigGrin

Best regards
Joël


Nah, we leave all that around London and the South Coast. BigGrin BigGrin BigGrin



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Offline applor  
#7 Posted : 29 June 2021 07:16:41(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,494
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post

Well, I guess it is best of luck to the DB in their efforts. will they still allow Steam specials? I guess the Harz will carry on, they have lots of forest to absorb the carbon ... BigGrin




I am sure they can offset the emissions for any steam specials if they need.
modelling 1954 Germany (era IIIa)
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Offline rmsailor  
#8 Posted : 29 June 2021 19:15:07(UTC)
rmsailor

Scotland   
Joined: 20/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 525
Location: Kirkcaldy, Fife
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post

Well, I guess it is best of luck to the DB in their efforts. will they still allow Steam specials? I guess the Harz will carry on, they have lots of forest to absorb the carbon ... BigGrin




I am sure they can offset the emissions for any steam specials if they need.


It is estimated that here in the UK the demand for coal for steam specials and heritage lines amounts to some 28,000 tons per year. With domestic production drying up and imported coal being less suitable, attention is turning to synthetic "coal" made from waste vegetable matter with one narrow gauge line reporting success with their trials. Sorry can't remember which one. It was a report that came up on facebook.
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Offline Mman  
#9 Posted : 30 June 2021 00:26:51(UTC)
Mman

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/05/2021(UTC)
Views messages in topic : 74
Location: England, Guildford
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: TrainIride Go to Quoted Post
I suggest third rail BigGrin

Best regards
Joël


Nah, we leave all that around London and the South Coast. BigGrin BigGrin BigGrin



Third rail is expensive too since you need a substation every 4 miles maximum and traction paralleling huts in between each pair.
The Austrian/German Siemens trains that came to Wessex (Lines out of Waterloo to Portsmouth and Weymouth) to replace the 1960’s and 70’s EMUs draw far more current than their predecessors - not very green- and more substations and larger cross section conductor rail have become necessary. Because of the hazardous nature of fully unprotected exposed 750v dc conductor rail any further schemes fall foul of Health and Safety etc regulations. The last major third rail scheme was the Docklands Light Railway but that uses bottom contact on fully shrouded conductor rail.
A former colleague of mine was a manager in the early days of GWR electrification and he attributed the colossal budget overrun to inexperienced project managers who, because no OHL installation had been done in the UK for decades and privatization got rid of swathes of experienced staff of all disciplines, had no realistic idea of costs and logistics involved. I had not heard of concrete rafts under the track, the masts have been installed quite a distance from the rails so its use must have been extensive. Perhaps lifting the track necessitated raising bridges etc to accommodate the wires?

Edited by moderator 01 July 2021 02:02:30(UTC)  | Reason: Fixed quote tags

Offline bph  
#10 Posted : 30 June 2021 18:40:35(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 395
Originally Posted by: rmsailor Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post

Well, I guess it is best of luck to the DB in their efforts. will they still allow Steam specials? I guess the Harz will carry on, they have lots of forest to absorb the carbon ... BigGrin




I am sure they can offset the emissions for any steam specials if they need.


It is estimated that here in the UK the demand for coal for steam specials and heritage lines amounts to some 28,000 tons per year. With domestic production drying up and imported coal being less suitable, attention is turning to synthetic "coal" made from waste vegetable matter with one narrow gauge line reporting success with their trials. Sorry can't remember which one. It was a report that came up on facebook.


I remember reading an article recently in a British train magazine. and it was basically a call for more environmentally friendly heritage railways. They even wanted the volunteers to have carbon-neutral traveling to and from the railway. It may seem strange but I guess some heritage railways will have to adapt to more "enviro-friendly" fuel like pellets, oil, or syntectic coal. if not only to keep local politicians and population on their good side. As for the big picture, will it really make much difference ?. sometimes it seems that the whole picture is forgotten when a solution is considered and they only focus on low carbon emission and forget the rest.
And you also have the Swiss solution ;)
Electric_steam2.jpg
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Offline JohnjeanB  
#11 Posted : 30 June 2021 19:29:33(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,731
Location: Paris, France
Hi
In France, for passenger trains there is since 2020 the development "bimode" (dual mode) locomotives or passenger sets that run on electric power by can run "the last mile" on diesel
Here is one example the B 82500 (2 modes: Electric and Diesel, 2 Systems 1500 VDC or 25 000 VAC, 4 bodies)
Sans titre.png
For freight traffic with full power evaluation testing by VFLI is starting also in France of EuroDual (Staedler / Vossloh): a mainline locomotive of 6MW (electric 1500 DC or 25 000 VAC) or 2.8 MW in Diesel traction. Maximum speed 160 km/h
Sans titre.png
Alstom was ordered 47 dual mode locos Prima H4 2 by SBB Infrastructure in 2015
Here is the beast
Sans titre.png
The Prima H4 loco is Diesel, electric (1500 VDC, 25 000 VAC) and battery for yard operation

Cheers
Jean

My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
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Offline bph  
#12 Posted : 30 June 2021 21:02:09(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 395
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi
In France, for passenger trains there is since 2020 the development "bimode" (dual mode) locomotives or passenger sets that run on electric power by can run "the last mile" on diesel
Here is one example the B 82500 (2 modes: Electric and Diesel, 2 Systems 1500 VDC or 25 000 VAC, 4 bodies)
Sans titre.png
Cheers
Jean


we have something similar in Norway, the type 76 (Stadler FLIRT). It'ss designed to operate fully on diesel and electricity, and short movements on battery.
they can manage 200 km/h in electric mode and 160 km/h when running on diesel's.

https://www.jernbanedirektoratet.no/contentassets/1672410c292a40c0ae5784e73d753652/nsv-tp76-skien-4red-str.jpg
Photo:jernbanedirektoratet.no and Njål Svingheim.
The wagon that contains 4xDeutz V8 and the battery pack.


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Offline Dimi194  
#13 Posted : 01 July 2021 00:25:11(UTC)
Dimi194

Australia   
Joined: 21/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 366
Location: South Coast, NSW
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi
In France, for passenger trains there is since 2020 the development "bimode" (dual mode) locomotives or passenger sets that run on electric power by can run "the last mile" on diesel
Here is one example the B 82500 (2 modes: Electric and Diesel, 2 Systems 1500 VDC or 25 000 VAC, 4 bodies)
Sans titre.png
For freight traffic with full power evaluation testing by VFLI is starting also in France of EuroDual (Staedler / Vossloh): a mainline locomotive of 6MW (electric 1500 DC or 25 000 VAC) or 2.8 MW in Diesel traction. Maximum speed 160 km/h
Sans titre.png
Alstom was ordered 47 dual mode locos Prima H4 2 by SBB Infrastructure in 2015
Here is the beast
Sans titre.png
The Prima H4 loco is Diesel, electric (1500 VDC, 25 000 VAC) and battery for yard operation

Cheers
Jean



NSW will be getting a similar thing soon - bi-mode trains that run under wires when on the suburban network but diesel when on the regional lines!

https://www.caf.net/en/p...oyecto-detalle.php?p=306
Author of the gritty sci-fi novel 'Stories of Earth: WWIII' (featuring an awesome train chase)
Avid YouTuber (XtremeTrainz and TrainzXtreme) and train person!
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Offline Dimi194  
#14 Posted : 01 July 2021 00:30:28(UTC)
Dimi194

Australia   
Joined: 21/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 366
Location: South Coast, NSW
Originally Posted by: bph Go to Quoted Post



I remember reading an article recently in a British train magazine. and it was basically a call for more environmentally friendly heritage railways. They even wanted the volunteers to have carbon-neutral traveling to and from the railway. It may seem strange but I guess some heritage railways will have to adapt to more "enviro-friendly" fuel like pellets, oil, or syntectic coal. if not only to keep local politicians and population on their good side. As for the big picture, will it really make much difference ?. sometimes it seems that the whole picture is forgotten when a solution is considered and they only focus on low carbon emission and forget the rest.
And you also have the Swiss solution ;)
Electric_steam2.jpg


These kind of arguments always seem very silly to me - it's the same as plastic straws, like yes we should try and use less, but banning them won't save the planet when 20 companies produce 50% of the plastic on the planet... Perspective, there are way better and more impactful ways to address pollution and climate change than banning heritage steam locos

Making politicians use public transit instead all their personal cars/taxis/limos would be more than enough to offset the tiny amount of pollution made by heritage steam locos Flapper
Author of the gritty sci-fi novel 'Stories of Earth: WWIII' (featuring an awesome train chase)
Avid YouTuber (XtremeTrainz and TrainzXtreme) and train person!
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Offline mrmarklin  
#15 Posted : 01 July 2021 00:36:50(UTC)
mrmarklin

United States   
Joined: 27/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 850
Location: Burney, CA
I believe here in the US the diesel electric locomotive is still firmly entrenched. Other than in the East there are almost no electrified lines.Crying
From the People's Republik of Kalifornia
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Online marklinist5999  
#16 Posted : 01 July 2021 01:26:21(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 954
Location: Michigan, Troy
Pete Butejig is on that! Of course with Lake Mead, etc. drying up, I don't know where the hydro power will come from to run electric trains.
Offline TrainIride  
#17 Posted : 10 August 2021 10:56:20(UTC)
TrainIride

France   
Joined: 23/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,710
Location: FRANCE
So it will soon be a picture of the past:

Just caught a Vossloh Euro 4000,
with its twin-turbo V16 EMD diesel engine,
passing by ...



Best Regards
Joël
Offline French_Fabrice  
#18 Posted : 10 August 2021 13:41:48(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,382
Location: Lyon, France
Hello,

I've recently heard that Alstom has been ordered hydrogen trains.
See there: https://www.alstom.com/p...step-towards-sustainable

One giant leap forward ? BigGrin
Sorry for slightly hijacking this thread...

Cheers
Fabrice
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