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Offline ocram63_uk  
#1 Posted : 18 April 2021 18:05:26(UTC)
ocram63_uk

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 555
Location: England, Suffolk
This is really disturbing. It has 2 moving arms. A red, green and orange plugs. From what I read in the Model Signals handbook, item 446, the two arms have to move together. I can't get this to work. Green moves by itself, red moves by itself, orange doesn't do anything apart from buzzing.
I'm using, for testing purposes, a 7072 and I have plugged in red with red, green with green and orange into the next red. They do not work as expected.

Is this by any chance what they call 3 position 2 arm semaphore instead? I washed with Wd-40 as well but nothing improves
Offline kiwiAlan  
#2 Posted : 18 April 2021 18:20:25(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 6,337
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: ocram63_uk Go to Quoted Post
This is really disturbing. It has 2 moving arms. A red, green and orange plugs. From what I read in the Model Signals handbook, item 446, the two arms have to move together. I can't get this to work. Green moves by itself, red moves by itself, orange doesn't do anything apart from buzzing.
I'm using, for testing purposes, a 7072 and I have plugged in red with red, green with green and orange into the next red. They do not work as expected.

Is this by any chance what they call 3 position 2 arm semaphore instead? I washed with Wd-40 as well but nothing improves


As the signal has three plugs it probably is a three position 2 arm semaphore. There are others where there are two arms but only ever two indications, either red or green with orange, which I believe have only two wires.

It sounds like the magnetic armature for the second arm is stuck inside its coil. I can't recall the physical arrangement but seem to recall three coils in a line, but have never had to service one. I would try physically moving the magnetic armature for the second arm with some pliers or tweezers to see if it is stuck inside the coil. There is always the possibility that someone has left power on the coil which has caused it to overheat, whereon it distorts and jams the armature. The only real solution then is a replacement coil. If the armature moves freely then further investigation is required.


Offline JohnjeanB  
#3 Posted : 18 April 2021 18:51:51(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,757
Location: Paris, France
Hi
Originally Posted by: ocram63_uk Go to Quoted Post
This is really disturbing. It has 2 moving arms. A red, green and orange plugs. From what I read in the Model Signals handbook, item 446, the two arms have to move together. I can't get this to work. Green moves by itself, red moves by itself, orange doesn't do anything apart from buzzing.
I'm using, for testing purposes, a 7072 and I have plugged in red with red, green with green and orange into the next red. They do not work as expected.


The German semaphores (Formsignale) have 3 positions Hp0 (stop=red): Hp1 reduce speed Orange-Green and Hp2 no speed limit Green. In the 7041 signal there is an arrangement making it impossible to go from green (Hp2) to green/orange (Hp1) without using first red (to reset the signal)

In your case the coil activated by the orange plug is the rearmost. There are 2 metal cores in the signal . One is for the green / red position and the second one pushing the first one into green while activating the orange arm (lower arm in oblique position.

Why is does not work? Many possibilities:
* one of the coils was connected for a long period and became hot. The result is to warp the inside rectangular conduit in which the core is moving (or is stuck)
* the steel wire connecting rods are bent or the rotating intermediate piece is stuck
* the sliding contacts are pushing too hard on the front core

So by removing the plastic housing and pushing gently the rear core you will see immediately where is the mechanical resistance coming from.
Note: this coil has the biggest job to do by pushing both cores and moving all the semaphores (arms)
Sorry I have no pictures at the moment
Cheers
Jean

My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
Offline ocram63_uk  
#4 Posted : 18 April 2021 19:10:15(UTC)
ocram63_uk

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 555
Location: England, Suffolk
Hi John, Alan, indeed there are two coils. A big on in the front, by the semaphore pole and a smaller one at tje back. They all move freely. The problem, I have noticed, is with the rear coil when the second arm's rod is connected. It gets stuck while moving. Had anybody good the instruction booklet for this article, please?
Offline JohnjeanB  
#5 Posted : 18 April 2021 21:23:59(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,757
Location: Paris, France
Hi
You got me confused
I understand you mean 7041 signal with 2 semaphores and 3 positions (3 coils) and not about the 7040 which has 2 semaphores but only 2 coils and 2 positions.
If we talk about the 7041 (3 positions): there is a pair of coils to drive the top semaphore and the contacts (switches).
The third coil (in line with the first 2, drives the lower semaphore ) It is recognizable by its iron core at the verey rear of the signal (opposite to the mast) with a hole through which a steel wire bent at 90° moves horizontally to drive the lower semaphore.
My understanding is this is the one which is stuck (likely because it got too hot and the nylon of the coil is warped inside)
I have one 7041 and many 7040 and 7039. The most common trouble is the nylon coil structure is warped (because of heat). When you look inside the coil, it has not anymore a nice rectangular conduit for the iron core to move freely (gets stuck)
Here is one recent version of the users manual https://katalog.dermodellbahnblo...753-signal-anleitung.pdf
I could not find anything better
Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
Offline ocram63_uk  
#6 Posted : 19 April 2021 12:13:30(UTC)
ocram63_uk

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 555
Location: England, Suffolk
Maybe my question is really stupid bt here it goes anyway.
The 7072 box on the back has the 'input' holes identified in green and red. I imagine that the semaphore plugs go red-[>red and green->green.
When I press the red button I get the STOP signal and when I press the green button I get the GO signal. If this is correct then why were all the plugs on the signal I have bought inverted ?

Ma 7072.JPG

semaphore lot.JPG

Thank you for the instruction booklet of the semaphore

I missed the red box era, I got into Marklin with the Blue ones :-)
Offline JohnjeanB  
#7 Posted : 19 April 2021 12:23:17(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,757
Location: Paris, France
Hi
You got this correct
When purchasing 2nd signals very often the color plugs are removed to get the wires off the base plate and screwed again not checking the proper color and you may have to correct the plug for proper colour
Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
Offline ocram63_uk  
#8 Posted : 19 April 2021 12:45:17(UTC)
ocram63_uk

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 555
Location: England, Suffolk
the most frustrating bit is getting the actuator rods to work properly and have the semaphore 'flags' to move and stop at the correct location to see the red / green lights properly.
Offline ocram63_uk  
#9 Posted : 09 May 2021 19:52:01(UTC)
ocram63_uk

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 555
Location: England, Suffolk
UPDATE!! I managed to remove the coil assembly and take it apart. This is are the pieces it is made of. I looked inside and the metal structure of the coils Isn't warped but very shiny. How can they warp even if someone keeps the button pressed for too long who knows.

988357ED-B671-4634-8D60-40285E354BB9.jpeg

The culprit was, in both, the middle U shaped bit. This part sits between the front plastic piece that has the controls on track power and the back smaller bit that controls the second arm of the semaphore, aka the orange light. The U shaped bit has to be upside down, so not like a U but the opposite. This done I reassembled the semaphore and it now works perfectly.
Red and green work fine.
From orange you can only set red but not green. Setting red now pushes the back bit all the way without getting stuck thus removing orange setting. Why is this?
Originally the U shaped bit had its 'legs' sticking upwards and as there is a gap between the two coils it got stuck in there. Now this does not happen because being the other way around the passage between the two coils is smooth and unimpede. Jolly good :-)
Offline JohnjeanB  
#10 Posted : 10 May 2021 00:12:54(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,757
Location: Paris, France
Hi Ocram
The inside part of the coils is supposed to be of rectangular section.
When the coils gets hot, the inside shape changes and the wall get warped toward the moving part (also made of nylon)
It is a typical disease on these signals. It is good you did not have this.
The other question is why on Märklin 3 position signals (7041, 7043) you must return from slow speed to stop before going to green?
The answer is economy and also on the 7041, the signal is usually before a switch and is turned to green if the switch is straight and orange -green if it is set to turnout.
Now, on CS2 and CS3, Märklin provides a software fix (as also on 3 way points)
Cheers
Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
Offline ocram63_uk  
#11 Posted : 10 May 2021 07:58:53(UTC)
ocram63_uk

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 555
Location: England, Suffolk
Thank you JJB for the explanation. Marco
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