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Offline luckas  
#1 Posted : 03 May 2021 12:13:46(UTC)
luckas


Joined: 06/02/2002(UTC)
Posts: 177
Location: ,
Greetings friends,

So I've successfully placed contact tracks at the beginning and end of the 4 tracks in my station area, using a Link S88 as discussed here:

https://www.marklin-user...act-Track-Placement-Help

I've also managed some basic automation with my new CS3. Train enters station, brakes when it hits K1, stops at K2 which switches some turnouts, starts a train at K3, etc.

The only problem, of course, is that the automation in CS3 appears to be "train dependant". I can only create an event that moves a particular locomotive, not just any locomotive that is sitting on a contact track. If I want to control blocks independent of locomotive using CS3 events, I would need to include an M84 and isolate power. Is that correct?

If so, then I think I understand why software such as Rocrail is so useful, as it only needs contact tracks for automation, with signals purely cosmetic.

Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong. I had hoped to be able to create generic events in the CS3 using contact tracks and the Link S88.

Advice / help gratefully received.

Paul
Offline marklinist5999  
#2 Posted : 03 May 2021 12:20:40(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 962
Location: Michigan, Troy
Hmmm, I need to watch the webinar again on YouTube about setting up events. Seems I recall them checking a box for all locomotives run in event, or it should be standard unless you select only certain locos for an event.
Offline luckas  
#3 Posted : 03 May 2021 12:32:29(UTC)
luckas


Joined: 06/02/2002(UTC)
Posts: 177
Location: ,
Interesting - thanks. I've only managed to create an event where I literally 'drag' a loco into the timeline, but I'm happy to be corrected. I've done a lot of 'youtubing' on the subject but it seems that almost all use signals (with m84s I guess).

Paul
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by luckas
Offline marklinist5999  
#4 Posted : 03 May 2021 12:40:52(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 962
Location: Michigan, Troy
Yes, I guess I presumed you had a signal. Sorry. Do you have another relay to cut power to the block section?
I haven't wired anything in yet. Dies the CS3 have block switching without a relay or signal or decoder?
Offline luckas  
#5 Posted : 03 May 2021 12:51:05(UTC)
luckas


Joined: 06/02/2002(UTC)
Posts: 177
Location: ,
I'm just using contact tracks and a Link S88 at this stage.

There's a very good thread here, which you may have seen already:

https://www.marklin-user...locks-and-contact-tracks

Paul
Offline kgsjoqvist  
#6 Posted : 03 May 2021 13:34:31(UTC)
kgsjoqvist

Sweden   
Joined: 04/06/2002(UTC)
Posts: 750
Location: Täby
There are some interesting possibilities with CS3 in automation. But in computer software you can do more, since the program keps track of where each train is on the layout. If you run just one train on the track you can automate a sequence where the train slows down, stops etc. But then a CS3 is probably already a bit of overkill.
K-G / H0 and Z model train user
Offline JohnjeanB  
#7 Posted : 03 May 2021 15:00:15(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,732
Location: Paris, France
Hi Paul
Yes I agree, so far, all automation made using a CS3 is train-dependent. There are a few new tricks to make it less so (by adding a condition - for instance a switch position to an event.

Only software like Rocrail make automation truly loco-independent. It goes even further:
- Rocrail can compute the length of each train to see if a block can accept it
- Rocrail checks the type of energy so as not to send an electric loco to a block without overhead line
and much more.

So indeed Märklin tries to add functions to the events (see the new macros associated with events (OR, AND, LOOP, RANDOM, BLOCK) but as long as it does not updates each loco's location, a true automation is not feasible.

Here is an example of automatic operation with Rocrail that is totally impossible to make with a CS3 alone



I like Rocrail a lot as it gives huge possibilities (humping yard, loco-dependent positioning for watering steam engines, etc


Cheers
Jean



My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
Offline Crazy Harry  
#8 Posted : 04 May 2021 00:41:01(UTC)
Crazy Harry

Canada   
Joined: 18/11/2008(UTC)
Posts: 412
Location: Oakville, Ontario
Here's a link to the YouTube channel to see the webinars prepared by the US Marklin Digital gurus: Marklin Trains YouTube Channel

I believe these are the webinars that marklinist5999 is referring to. Programming events is covered in #7 and #8.

I haven't watched them. I hope they may answer your question.

Harold.
Offline Tie  
#9 Posted : 04 May 2021 17:39:12(UTC)
Tie

Norway   
Joined: 28/09/2019(UTC)
Posts: 24
Location: Rogaland, Haugesund
Will not debate what is best for automation. However I get a lot of fun programming the cs3. I can set up routes for 4 trains. Having them to run their routes. Stopping at stations, waiting for their next block to be free/released by incoming train coming to the station in opposite direction. Then setting nex block to occupied and entering it on their way to next station. Do not hawe the pretty layout but setup😀 but look at my two videos on youtube. Search for Thor Inge Eie
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Tie
Offline clapcott  
#10 Posted : 05 May 2021 10:00:58(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,332
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: luckas Go to Quoted Post
The only problem, of course, is that the automation in CS3 appears to be "train dependant". I can only create an event that moves a particular locomotive, not just any locomotive that is sitting on a contact track. If I want to control blocks independent of locomotive using CS3 events, I would need to include an M84 and isolate power. Is that correct?
The full paragraph is not correct

While an event may need to have a locomotive to act as a placeholder, and it is used if you call the even manually..

The CS3, and CS2, provide for the event/memory to inherit the locomotive id of a calling Locomotive function.

e.g.
Event created referencing Loco 103
You may define F21 on loco 232 to refer to the event/memory.

When you select F21 on loco 232 it calls the event/loco and that loco will be the target of any programmed loco command.


That is probably not the answer you were after, as you still have have a way to track which loco is where.
But it does offer a solution.

Other considerations come into play if you wish to do a one event for all.
If the sequence includes a slowdown and stop using the locos own decceration settings, then you need to set all your locos to the same setting for it to look good.

Peter
Offline luckas  
#11 Posted : 05 May 2021 10:32:09(UTC)
luckas


Joined: 06/02/2002(UTC)
Posts: 177
Location: ,
So let me get this straight. I can create a loco function that calls an event that was created with another loco as its placeholder, and it will run it for the locomotive on which the function exists? And I could create that function on all locomotives that I wanted to run this event with, possibly taking into consideration variables such as deceleration.

Paul
Offline clapcott  
#12 Posted : 05 May 2021 10:59:33(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,332
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: luckas Go to Quoted Post
So let me get this straight.

Essentially correct.

your terminology re "creating a function" might better read "setting up a(n unused) function ..."

This inheriting became available with the CS2 and I giave the Function concept as the first mover.

In the CS3 the inheriting also applies to any(sic? I haven't checked all permutations) chaining of macros.
There are some quircks and the recent updates release notes speak to some bug fixes in the area.

Specifically, you can prime the "Braking Macro" in a similar way.

Peter
Offline Tie  
#13 Posted : 06 May 2021 14:18:08(UTC)
Tie

Norway   
Joined: 28/09/2019(UTC)
Posts: 24
Location: Rogaland, Haugesund
It is possible with cs3 to define vitual contacts. Similar as for S88, however the virual ones are set in the events programming(on/off) I use one such contact for each block. In general at startup all blocks are set to free(contact off) except the ones occupied by trains. When starting a train on a routein an event) the program is: check if first block is free(program will wait until it is) if or when free next command is to set it on(occupied) then same for all blocks required for the train to get to the next passing area/station. Then Program required turnouts to correct position and set train to go. Then program event to until train hits second blocks S88 contact. This indicating previous block is free. Program relevant vitual sensor to free/off making it possible for orher trains/events to use the block. This may be extended for as long as you want. My layout is to circles and i generally program all routes back to start point. It is then possibly to have cs3 to repeat program as many times as you wish. I have made this work with 5 trains simultanously. Running their routes but patiently waiting at stations/passing areas until required blocks necessary to reach next staition is free and trserved for the specific train. If anybody find this interesting I can detail some more. There are some more details to consider.
TIE
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Offline trentschler  
#14 Posted : 08 May 2021 14:24:02(UTC)
trentschler

United States   
Joined: 10/01/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8
Location: PENNSYLVANIA, PHILADELPHIA
Originally Posted by: Tie Go to Quoted Post
It is possible with cs3 to define vitual contacts. Similar as for S88, however the virual ones are set in the events programming(on/off) I use one such contact for each block. In general at startup all blocks are set to free(contact off) except the ones occupied by trains. When starting a train on a routein an event) the program is: check if first block is free(program will wait until it is) if or when free next command is to set it on(occupied) then same for all blocks required for the train to get to the next passing area/station. Then Program required turnouts to correct position and set train to go. Then program event to until train hits second blocks S88 contact. This indicating previous block is free. Program relevant vitual sensor to free/off making it possible for orher trains/events to use the block. This may be extended for as long as you want. My layout is to circles and i generally program all routes back to start point. It is then possibly to have cs3 to repeat program as many times as you wish. I have made this work with 5 trains simultanously. Running their routes but patiently waiting at stations/passing areas until required blocks necessary to reach next staition is free and trserved for the specific train. If anybody find this interesting I can detail some more. There are some more details to consider.
TIE


I think this sounds like good, modular software programming. It's really interesting. A couple of questions:

- how do you specify action at startup (setting all blocks to free, for example)?
- how to you actually create a virtual contact? I know how to drag and drop a contact track on to a track diagram, then program associated events, for example, but I'm not clear how I'd create a virtual contact.
- you still use contact or circuit tracks somewhere, correct? How do you know where your trains are on your layout?

Thanks!
Offline clapcott  
#15 Posted : 08 May 2021 23:55:11(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,332
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: trentschler Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Tie Go to Quoted Post
It is possible with cs3 to define vitual contacts. ......
...
- how to you actually create a virtual contact?
In context the correct CS3 term is "Controlling Contacts"

Equally important, in their use in events, is that a sensor (contact) may be used in a sequence to not only test its state but also, as is essential for these controlling contacts, to Set/Reset the contacts state (to be used in future testing)
Peter
Offline Tie  
#16 Posted : 09 May 2021 08:01:30(UTC)
Tie

Norway   
Joined: 28/09/2019(UTC)
Posts: 24
Location: Rogaland, Haugesund
I think controlling contact is correct term. And yes i have generally three sensors in all visible blocks and two(one each end) in hidden areas. My layout is scematic two circles connected to each other by four turnouts in a group allowing regardless of direction a train two run from one circle to the other. Also one of the circles include two turnouts with returning loops allowing trais to turn around and run in the other direction. So: I have made defined one route for each of my trains, and put each route event in its own event as described earlier. Events is started manually. As for setting controlling contacts for blocks to be free/occupied I created an event for this. At startup I need to have my trains parked in the correct place and direction. Actually my routes /events start and end with train in same position so if I dont run manually this is ready at startup. Then the event for setting blocks are dragged into a new event. The events for the five trains are also dragged into this event. All i have to do then is actuate this event containing the six events and blocks will be set and trains run their routes. I do not need to know where the trains are. They will only run whhen specified blocks are free and reserved for the specific train. The reservations are maide in the events so that each time a train reach a station/passing area and after a preset timestop the event starts to look for the next required blocks to be free and reserve then for the trains next leg on the route. Then the events sets the turnout and train is set to run. If a train stops on a dirty track the sequence stops for trains waiting for their free blocks but continues when the stalled train is helped to get electric contact. I do not know where the trains are, but the checks for free blocks and setting them occupied falls in the events after a train has triggered a s88 contact and then stopped in a station. So when programming I know where to proceed. Writing this on my Iphone in my summerhouse. I will try to make a moore detailed and illustrated descripion when home for those interested. It take some logic to set the sequence of reserving blocks. In the beginnig I had example: two trains going towards each other both needing block A and B. I ended with one event/train reserving A an the other reserving B. And then they waited for next block for ever. There is a way arond this by logic. Both trains must look for same block to be free first. Then the other.
Hope some of this is understandable. This way of programming is way outside what I see by orhers. But I make it work and when thing run smooth I am pretry proud of myself as such things it outside my line of work.
TIE
Offline trentschler  
#17 Posted : 09 May 2021 10:56:54(UTC)
trentschler

United States   
Joined: 10/01/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8
Location: PENNSYLVANIA, PHILADELPHIA
Originally Posted by: Tie Go to Quoted Post
Writing this on my Iphone in my summerhouse. I will try to make a moore detailed and illustrated descripion when home for those interested. It take some logic to set the sequence of reserving blocks. In the beginnig I had example: two trains going towards each other both needing block A and B. I ended with one event/train reserving A an the other reserving B. And then they waited for next block for ever. There is a way arond this by logic. Both trains must look for same block to be free first. Then the other.
Hope some of this is understandable. This way of programming is way outside what I see by orhers. But I make it work and when thing run smooth I am pretry proud of myself as such things it outside my line of work.
TIE


Thank you! I still have some track to lay and some wiring to complete but I'm going to experiment with your technique. I, too, basically have two loops which are joined by curved turnouts. Each loop has a small staging yard and the trains on each loop run only in one direction, though opposite of each other. I have what I think are appropriate signals for home, exit and blocks but I haven't hooked them up, and I have S88 contact tracks. I'm following the examples in the English version of the Marklin CS3 "how to" book and also webinars from Curtis and Rick.
Offline Tie  
#18 Posted : 09 May 2021 15:50:30(UTC)
Tie

Norway   
Joined: 28/09/2019(UTC)
Posts: 24
Location: Rogaland, Haugesund
I have also looked into the webinars but they seem to use another technic with their automation. For my trains to run I do not need signals, however I plan to set them for show only. Should be possible to activate them from the events. In my logic I have also defined turnouts as controlling contact since only one train can occupy the turnout simultanously. Maybe not required for a turnout on a single line. But for the cluster of four curved turnouts it is else possible to have a collision. Two trains runing opposite direction. One crossing from inner to outer loop the other opposite. They then may each have reserved their blocks on the required parts on the two loops but a collision could occure if turnout cluster is not controlled as blocks.
TIE
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