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Offline eurotrain  
#1 Posted : 13 April 2021 14:53:25(UTC)
eurotrain

United States   
Joined: 26/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 20
Location: Pennsylvania, Mount Pleasant
Several weeks ago, I asked Marklin Technical Service in Germany if they had any plans to install energy storage capacitors in their new locos.
There response came to me this morning in a statement that they felt the demand for such an item across their engine product line did not appear to be there. I have noticed Brawa and Roco have incorporated such items in many of there new locos and I have recently purchased and retrofitted most of my locos with an Energy Capacitor.
I like the capacitor. Engine performance is more reliable and sounds are uninterrupted. In larger, more complex crossings in stations and yards with multiple turnouts, the engine runs better and more smoothly at lower speeds. It is not about dirty track but more about engine performance. Even lighted passenger cars could benefit from this feature.
It is hard to imagine that demand for this product would not be a higher priority for Marklin fans.

What do you think?



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Offline hxmiesa  
#2 Posted : 13 April 2021 18:16:34(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,239
Location: Spain
I think that it is a disgrace that it isn't already standard in all the high-end several-hundreds-euros expensive locos.
You can hardly find a DIY guide to installing lightstrips in waggons, that doesn't incorporate a capacitor.
Even if the locos usually (not always) have better power pick-up than waggons, they are certainly much more vulnerable to an interruption, should it occur.
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
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Offline phils2um  
#3 Posted : 13 April 2021 18:36:19(UTC)
phils2um

United States   
Joined: 12/01/2016(UTC)
Posts: 100
Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
I agree, keep alive capacitors should be standard. The default time could be set avoid running through control blocks. The capacitors are standard on some of the newer Märklin LGB offerings and I'm thankful for that!
Phil S.
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Offline marklinist5999  
#4 Posted : 13 April 2021 20:09:21(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 609
Location: Michigan, Troy
I didn't think so at first, only because I wonderd why Roco does it. I thought that Marklin using two negative polarity rails makes a better circuit than only two rail, and the pickup shoe is always on at least three center positive studs. Then there is Trix, which is two rail. Then dirty track secxtions which may be hard to get to to clean., so yes, as so many others want it, it's a good idea. Won't do my collection any good though. I'm not adding a buffer capacitor to every loco. I'll just have to run extra current feeder wires to weak tracks.
Offline river6109  
#5 Posted : 14 April 2021 05:54:08(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,569
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
I find them very helpful, it just eliminates any mishape especially on large layouts like mine, for a loco to stop on a regulated train service operation it is vital that such undetected, dead spots are able to overcome any stopage., All ESu locos have power packs., it is quite funny when you pick up a loco from the track with a power capcitor it still has it lights on for 5 seconds, (the maximum time frame).
a feature as such wouldn't be of any interest to Märklin collectors and this may be the reason Märklin hasn't got any intention to fit them into their locos.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#6 Posted : 14 April 2021 13:33:52(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 5,969
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
All ESu locos have power packs.


If that is the case why do they sell a seperate power pack unit?

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Offline marklinist5999  
#7 Posted : 14 April 2021 13:44:50(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
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Location: Michigan, Troy
So that owners of oter brands can buy them for their models and install.
Offline kiwiAlan  
#8 Posted : 14 April 2021 13:57:36(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
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Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
So that owners of oter brands can buy them for their models and install.


You mean the ESU capacitor unit? No - they have a connection that is specific to features of the ESU decoders so that when the decoder is on a programming track the capacitor is switched out so the programming process works correctly. If a capacitor is not disconnected from the decoder then a DCC programmer has problems unless the decoder has a specific means to disconnect it like the Marklin and ESU ones do.
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Offline marklinist5999  
#9 Posted : 14 April 2021 14:05:42(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 609
Location: Michigan, Troy
Marklin also sells them.
Offline H0  
#10 Posted : 14 April 2021 14:16:48(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,146
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
All ESu locos have power packs.


If that is the case why do they sell a seperate power pack unit?
There are many non-ESU locos in the world. And also many analogue locos.
The power pack is an optional upgrade for any retrofit decoder sold by ESU.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline JohnjeanB  
#11 Posted : 14 April 2021 17:56:03(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,562
Location: Paris, France
Hi
Using Märklin locos and C track (for 2 rails DC I cannot say), the need for storage capacitor is very small when tracks are clean. Issues may arise on short locos with one traction tire when using contact track (then you may have only one wheel for rail pickup) then a solution may be needed (storage capacitors take some space but they are mostly needed when there is no space - small locos). Another solution may be a rail slider or an additional wagon for additional rail/wheel contact.

Note that storage capacitor must go along with a strict time limit, when using stop (insulated) sections. Otherwise, the risk is to see the loco continue past the stop section.
My alternative for Märklin is to add a "rail slider" on the traction tire side (LGB style but much more discreet). Then all is OK
Cheers
Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
Offline kiwiAlan  
#12 Posted : 14 April 2021 19:28:31(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 5,969
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
Marklin also sells them.


The Marklin ones will only work with a Marklin decoder as you need to set certain CVs in the decoder, and then set certain CVs in the capacitor unit as it uses a SUSI interface to the decoder.

The ESU one has a three wire interface, two being power and a third that turns off the capacitor unit under the decoders control. The only decoders i know of that will do this for the ESU capacitor unit is an ESU decoder.

There are a lot of example schematics out on the web for capacitor backup units, but they are all very simple units which need to be disconnected from the decoder if it needs programming on a DCC programming track. This involves one of three options: -
taking the body off the loco and disconnecting the capacitor pack,
Using a reed switch activated by a magnet to disconnect the capacitor pack,
Using a suitable small slide switch suitably located so it can be operated without removing the body to disconnect the capacitor pack.

The Marklin and ESU decoders automatically handle this without the user even noticing when using their appropriate capacitor pack. It would still be possible to use a simple one from a web page with either Marklin or ESU decoders, but the limitations above apply if the decoder needs programming on a DCC programming track.



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Offline costing  
#13 Posted : 15 April 2021 06:37:00(UTC)
costing

Switzerland   
Joined: 20/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 126
Location: Geneve, Geneva
On C track I find that a capacitor is needed, especially as I don't run too often :) As of now only one small loco is not retrofitted with a capacitor, all others have as much as I could cram inside. Clearly not on the O(5s) magnitude though, but enough to skip over some center rail rust...

The circuit is simple (taken from the ESU manual) and can be added to any existing or retrofit decoder. I don't disconnect them for DCC programming, they don't interfere at all with reading or writing CVs.

So I don't understand why they don't factory install them, it's a few euros per loco for me to do it. I'm sure they can do even better... Saying that the customers don't ask for it sounds weird. Let's spin this around, who would refuse a smooth running loco in any track conditions?!

Otoh, what would I tinker with any more?...
JMRI on RPi & DCC++ / C-track / Marklin, Roco, ESU, Bemo locos / Christmas car collector
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Offline marklinist5999  
#14 Posted : 15 April 2021 12:32:57(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 609
Location: Michigan, Troy
Rust on C track? Do you have some M track?
Offline costing  
#15 Posted : 15 April 2021 12:39:17(UTC)
costing

Switzerland   
Joined: 20/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 126
Location: Geneve, Geneva
C track and only C track.

I find that the center studs are the weak point in this Marklin universe, every time there is a glitch cleaning them a bit fixes the problem. I guess that's what I deserve for ignoring them for too long :)
JMRI on RPi & DCC++ / C-track / Marklin, Roco, ESU, Bemo locos / Christmas car collector
Offline H0  
#16 Posted : 15 April 2021 13:35:49(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,146
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
Rust on C track?
Run your trains daily, otherwise you'll get rust on the centre rail studs.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline marklinist5999  
#17 Posted : 15 April 2021 16:06:39(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
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Posts: 609
Location: Michigan, Troy
Clean the sliders with karosene (smoke fluid) like the outer rails. When you run trains, it helps clean. Courtesy of the Marklin dudes.
Offline kiwiAlan  
#18 Posted : 15 April 2021 19:09:52(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 5,969
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: costing Go to Quoted Post

So I don't understand why they don't factory install them, it's a few euros per loco for me to do it. I'm sure they can do even better... Saying that the customers don't ask for it sounds weird. Let's spin this around, who would refuse a smooth running loco in any track conditions?!


I keep hearing this argument that the cost of the components is minimal. So I take it you are going to take up a position at one of the decoder manufacturers working for nothing to assemble and test these units? Confused

The cost of an ESU capacitor unit and a Marklin capacitor unit are similar, and if you add that cost to the price of a mid-featured loco it would be around a 10% increase in price (rule of thumb arithmetic, a Marklin buffer capacitor is around Euro34 to buy, a decent loco is around the Euro 300 price point, so roughly 10% increase when added together).

On a high end loco like the 'surprise loco' or a G1 loco the price increase is smaller as a percentage, but it is still a bump in the price. If you start talking about a Start Up series loco then the price increase becomes an even higher percentage.
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Offline marklinist5999  
#19 Posted : 15 April 2021 20:29:54(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 609
Location: Michigan, Troy
Perhaps a bean counter CFO doesn't "want to pay" another employee do add the capacitors, or have the one who might install the electronics take longer as that could slow down production? Roco assembles many locs. in Romania. Marklin in Hungary. I don't know if there is any variance inl labor costs between the two. Does Piko include them in the Expert line? They are in Germany, so who knows?
I do know that the owner of Piko kept all employees on after buying the company in 1990-91 after the wall came down. I don't know if they source yet from China, but even in China now, people move from job to job because another pays more. Their quality of work is tenfold better than in 1990.
When i was a kid, many toys and models came from Japan, then Korea, and Taiwan as labor costs rose. Of course there were exceptions. The AMT, amd MPC model scale car makers were right near here. The scale blue prints, molding, and packaging was all done in house. New 1/24, and 1.25 scale autos changed yearly with the prototypes, and were almost simultaneously introduced.
Economies of scale are very complex. Today, Viet Nam, Thailand, Honduras, etc. are developing economies which attract new industry. Even Preiser figures are sent to Maritius for hand painting, then back to Germany. There is no nation which does everything within it's borders. All those shipping containers moving about on ships, trains, and trucks are the global economic backbone.
Offline hxmiesa  
#20 Posted : 15 April 2021 20:46:13(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,239
Location: Spain
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
I keep hearing this argument that the cost of the components is minimal. So I take it you are going to take up a position at one of the decoder manufacturers working for nothing to assemble and test these units? Confused
The cost of an ESU capacitor unit and a Marklin capacitor unit are similar, and if you add that cost to the price of a mid-featured loco it would be around a 10% increase in price (rule of thumb arithmetic, a Marklin buffer capacitor is around Euro34 to buy, a decent loco is around the Euro 300 price point, so roughly 10% increase when added together).

I don't even know what the capacitor pack worth 34€ consists of, but the electronic parts cost mere cents. The 34€ for a loose pack is because it needs to be produced and marketed as a stand-alone product -all with multi-language manuals and a nice box. -Instead of just another spare part.
The base-cost of this solution could also be minimized, had the solution been designed into the PCBs right from the start.

The existence of this as a product refutes Märklins own words about that they see no need for it. There obviously exist SOME demand for it.
But they see more business in moving pantographs and doors. More sound-functions than there are buttons on the controllers, etc... Why is producing the best-running locomotives in the world not their top priority¿? ;-)
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
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Offline marklinist5999  
#21 Posted : 15 April 2021 20:54:57(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 609
Location: Michigan, Troy
They are two buffer capacitors, and possibly two resistors, or a diode on a small board.
Offline DTaylor91  
#22 Posted : 15 April 2021 22:59:53(UTC)
DTaylor91


Joined: 31/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 400
Location: Kennesaw, GA
I've been wondering about this "keep alive" capacitor thing...

When such a storage capacitor has power applied, it acts electrically as a dead short until it charges. Obviously the amount of charge the capacitor is capable of holding is a factor on current draw at power up, i.e., larger capacitors take longer to charge, making the "short" last longer. Capacitors connected in parallel across a power supply add capacitance. For example, a 1000uF capacitor in one coach and a 1200uF capacitor in another means the power supply "sees" a 2200uF total load until they both charge. If everything on the layout has a reservoir capacitor that size or larger, how much inrush current can a MS or CS handle before the overload trips? Do these "power packs" have inrush current limiters?
Offline perz  
#23 Posted : 16 April 2021 00:03:11(UTC)
perz

Sweden   
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC)
Posts: 2,577
Location: Sweden
One way to avoid too much in-rush current, and to avoid disturbing e.g. mfx feedback, is to use a resistor in parallel with a diode. The capacitor is charged slowly through the resistor but can supply much current through the diode when discharged. The whole idea relies on that the periods of bad track contact are short compared to the time when there is good contact.

http://www.persmodelrailroad.com/ext/cap.png

We used this for improved reliability on our "company layout" (you can find an old topic about that layout if you search the forum). It worked well.

Regards
Per
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Offline scraigen  
#24 Posted : 16 April 2021 00:15:08(UTC)
scraigen


Joined: 29/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 292
Location: Sheffield,
This has all been argued at length before.
Buffer capacitor
Must build something
Offline kiwiAlan  
#25 Posted : 16 April 2021 01:13:21(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 5,969
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Go to Quoted Post

I don't even know what the capacitor pack worth 34€ consists of, but the electronic parts cost mere cents. The 34€ for a loose pack is because it needs to be produced and marketed as a stand-alone product -all with multi-language manuals and a nice box. -Instead of just another spare part.


You clearly have NOT had one on your hand. if you have a look at the first picture in this post on top of the left hand stack of boxes is a Marklin buffer capacitor in a spare parts plastic bag - no box, although it does have a manual. But it wouldn't matter if it is a seperate item or built into the loco from the beginning, it still needs some form of manual.

I haven't fitted it yet, but a fellow modeller who frequents this forum says the Marklin unit is the best one on the market just because it works the best of any he has tried, and I know he has also used the ESU one, but finds the Marklin one works a heap better.





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bph
Offline phils2um  
#26 Posted : 16 April 2021 02:45:00(UTC)
phils2um

United States   
Joined: 12/01/2016(UTC)
Posts: 100
Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
I keep hearing this argument that the cost of the components is minimal.

Yes, the actual component cost is only a couple of dollars when designed into the decoder board itself. It is not accurate to compare the cost of add-on capacitor packs with all their additional wiring and connectors, separate packaging, warehousing, and distribution costs to what it costs to build it on the board.
Phil S.
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Offline scraigen  
#27 Posted : 16 April 2021 11:10:36(UTC)
scraigen


Joined: 29/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 292
Location: Sheffield,
Originally Posted by: phils2um Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
I keep hearing this argument that the cost of the components is minimal.

Yes, the actual component cost is only a couple of dollars when designed into the decoder board itself. It is not accurate to compare the cost of add-on capacitor packs with all their additional wiring and connectors, separate packaging, warehousing, and distribution costs to what it costs to build it on the board.



Wasn't the point that if something was built in at the beginning then separate packaging, warehousing, and distribution are pretty much irrelevant and you are left with a small component cost and an extra page in the manual?
Must build something
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Offline H0  
#28 Posted : 16 April 2021 12:42:19(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,146
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
The cost of an ESU capacitor unit and a Marklin capacitor unit are similar, and if you add that cost to the price of a mid-featured loco it would be around a 10% increase in price (rule of thumb arithmetic, a Marklin buffer capacitor is around Euro34 to buy, a decent loco is around the Euro 300 price point, so roughly 10% increase when added together).
I remember a time when a Märklin 6647 transformer had a list price of €100 while a starter set with the 6447 transformer had a list price of €100. Back then I got such a starter set on eBay for €55 new from dealer.
So how much did Märklin really pay for such a transformer back then?

I think with a power capacitor in every loco, the extra cost would be around €5 per loco, at max €10 per loco.
For locos with a lot of space inside, a diode, a resistor, and a huge capacitor for €1 or €2 might be sufficient to resolve the vast majority of power loss issues. The more expensive gold cap power packs are only needed in small locos with limited space.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Purellum  
#29 Posted : 16 April 2021 21:28:21(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,310
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Imagine buying a car in spare parts, and then building the car yourself BigGrin

Would this be cheaper than buying a complete car............ ?

Per.

Cool
If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

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Offline scraigen  
#30 Posted : 16 April 2021 21:47:42(UTC)
scraigen


Joined: 29/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 292
Location: Sheffield,
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
Cool

Imagine buying a car in spare parts, and then building the car yourself BigGrin

Would this be cheaper than buying a complete car............ ?

Per.

Cool


If it was made by Marklin then half the members on the forum would tell us, we’re lucky and should just buy it because if M made it in parts then it must be right. But I expect we’ll just argue more now about the car parts analogy. BigGrin
Must build something
Offline marklinist5999  
#31 Posted : 16 April 2021 21:49:51(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 609
Location: Michigan, Troy
That was done a lot by automakers before export homologation during world class ISO quality production began. CKD, or complete knockdown cars were exported by our major auto makers to Australia, and New Zealand, etc. Mainly from Canada. They were fitted for right hand drive. If you bought a full size Pontiac, the dash and instruments were Chevrolet Impala though, not Catalina, Bonneville, Laurentian or Parissienne. Canadian Pontiacs always had Chevrolet V8 engines anyway. Canadain Fords had a Mercury interior,and the Meteor
was Mercury there with a Ford Galaxie/LTD interior.
Offline Purellum  
#32 Posted : 16 April 2021 22:27:39(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,310
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
That was done a lot by automakers before export homologation during world class ISO quality production began. CKD, or complete knockdown cars were exported by our major auto makers to Australia, and New Zealand, etc. Mainly from Canada. They were fitted for right hand drive. If you bought a full size Pontiac, the dash and instruments were Chevrolet Impala though, not Catalina, Bonneville, Laurentian or Parissienne. Canadian Pontiacs always had Chevrolet V8 engines anyway. Canadain Fords had a Mercury interior,and the Meteor
was Mercury there with a Ford Galaxie/LTD interior.


You missed the point completely...................... Blink

Per.

Cool

If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

UserPostedImage
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#33 Posted : 16 April 2021 23:49:32(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 5,969
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
That was done a lot by automakers before export homologation during world class ISO quality production began. CKD, or complete knockdown cars were exported by our major auto makers to Australia, and New Zealand, etc.


Yes, that happened, but that was because of protectionist import duties to protect local industries, it didn't make the items cheaper in the hands of the consumer, if anything they were dearer, but the justification was it gave work to locals.

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Offline Hannes Porsche  
#34 Posted : 16 April 2021 23:53:40(UTC)
Hannes Porsche

South Africa   
Joined: 08/12/2015(UTC)
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Location: Western Cape, South Africa
Also missed the point ?????
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Offline marklinist5999  
#35 Posted : 17 April 2021 00:38:57(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 609
Location: Michigan, Troy
Ok, car owners add aftermarket items all the time too! Thats the point, no? It costs more to do it, because the factory didn't.
Offline DTaylor91  
#36 Posted : 17 April 2021 01:39:09(UTC)
DTaylor91


Joined: 31/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 400
Location: Kennesaw, GA
Originally Posted by: phils2um Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
I keep hearing this argument that the cost of the components is minimal.

Yes, the actual component cost is only a couple of dollars when designed into the decoder board itself. It is not accurate to compare the cost of add-on capacitor packs with all their additional wiring and connectors, separate packaging, warehousing, and distribution costs to what it costs to build it on the board.


Yes, but if you're making 100,000 of those boards, "a couple dollars" adds up...
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Offline phils2um  
#37 Posted : 17 April 2021 08:00:26(UTC)
phils2um

United States   
Joined: 12/01/2016(UTC)
Posts: 100
Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
Originally Posted by: DTaylor91 Go to Quoted Post
Yes, but if you're making 100,000 of those boards, "a couple dollars" adds up...

Yes, but it would only add a couple of bucks to the cost of even the cheapest starter loco. The benefit to the end user is well worth it.
Phil S.
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Offline mario54i  
#38 Posted : 17 April 2021 10:57:44(UTC)
mario54i

Italy   
Joined: 28/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 229
Location: Torino,
Originally Posted by: DTaylor91 Go to Quoted Post

Yes, but if you're making 100,000 of those boards, "a couple dollars" adds up...


If you buy 100,000 parts, "a couple dollars" will likely become 20 cents each or even less.
And what matters is the cost per board
FYI a 1000 uF 25 V capacitor from Mouser costs 10 cents in quantity 5000
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Offline hxmiesa  
#39 Posted : 17 April 2021 11:31:10(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,239
Location: Spain
Originally Posted by: DTaylor91 Go to Quoted Post
Yes, but if you're making 100,000 of those boards, "a couple dollars" adds up...

Here, we are talking about 1000s, maybe 10s of 1000s for the most produced items. (unless M. could achieve incorporating it onto a standard deco-board which it might be able to produce 100s of 1000s of.)
It doesn't matter anyway, as the bill is passed down to the customer. Who -even with half a brain- will be happy to pay that for a well-running loco! (compared to a similar one with NO cap buffer).
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
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Offline marklinist5999  
#40 Posted : 17 April 2021 12:51:53(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 609
Location: Michigan, Troy
So bottom line is can't means won't, and it's about the bottom line. Guess we have to keep our tracks and wheels clean! I doubt I will be weathering my tracks with paint either. Believe me, I am the only one who will know I haven't.
I realize some are more scrutinizing. They also use scenicing glue that doesn't dry shiny through static grass when bright light shines in.
Offline perz  
#41 Posted : 18 April 2021 11:21:00(UTC)
perz

Sweden   
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC)
Posts: 2,577
Location: Sweden
Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
So bottom line is can't means won't, and it's about the bottom line. Guess we have to keep our tracks and wheels clean! I doubt I will be weathering my tracks with paint either. Believe me, I am the only one who will know I haven't.
I realize some are more scrutinizing. They also use scenicing glue that doesn't dry shiny through static grass when bright light shines in.


I don't think weathering the tracks or not makes that much difference for track contact. At least, I haven't seen any degradation due to that. In my experience, the most common reasons for temporary bad contact are purely mechanical. It may be e.g. too depressed pukos or rails that have some minor misalignment. It may even be within the loco itself, e.g. between the pick-up shoe and the little contact plate it connects to, or between the wheels and the decoder. The second most common reason is plain dirt, I think. Especially sawdust seems to be problematic. Dirt can be cured by cleaning the tracks, but the mechanical problems need to be identified and cured.

Regards
Per Z.
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Offline river6109  
#42 Posted : 18 April 2021 17:02:02(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,569
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
All ESu locos have power packs.


If that is the case why do they sell a seperate power pack unit?



You can raise the same question: Why do they sell sound decoders ? they sell them so you can put them into locos which haven't got a power pack,
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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