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Offline artfull dodger  
#1 Posted : 19 January 2021 23:50:41(UTC)
artfull dodger

United States   
Joined: 31/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 419
Location: Indiana, Kokomo
Is the modeling of era 2 in the mid to late 1930s still considered taboo? Marklin makes some nice DRG models but......? No troop or other regalia, just loads of tanks, aircraft. Nothing that relates to AH or his party. Just the beautiful trains of that period Mike
Silly NT's..I have Asperger's Syndrome!!!!
Offline kimballthurlow  
#2 Posted : 20 January 2021 00:27:38(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,071
Location: Brisbane, Australia
As a railroad modeller, your modelling interests are generally private unless you take your layout to one of the many Train Shows or Layout Exhibitions.

In which case it is your choice to show something that may or may not encroach on other peoples sensibilities.

There are German railway prototypes in museums showing the 1938 extended Eagle synonomous with that era.
There are production models the same.
So in my opinion your modelling interests are your choice entirely.

Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail (USA and Australia) - 3 rail (English Hornby Dublo) - a few old O gauge.
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Offline river6109  
#3 Posted : 20 January 2021 01:37:14(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,724
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Growing up with this past environment hasn't made me to collect or consider the era in question., I've noticed America has a taste for war memorability and one can see this on ebay.com,
to elaborate a bit more we didn't learn, hear anything about the 2nd world war at school., I wasn't aware of all the atrocities until an age about 30.
on the other hand you can't wipe history off the map but the question is whether models, (which do not represent the true history) collectors have shown interest for some models from this period, most locos have been produced long before that time and it may be the propaganda aspect of the third Reich has producers/manufacturers limited the number by not supporting, advertising or glorifying the Nazi regime.

John


https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline rrf  
#4 Posted : 20 January 2021 01:42:29(UTC)
rrf

United States   
Joined: 15/11/2009(UTC)
Posts: 300
Location: Silver Spring, Maryland USA
Hello,

My other hobby addiction is RC Model Warship Combat. My family fleet is ~50/50 between US and German ships. My Scharnhorst, her sister Gneisenau (1942 mod w/ Bismarck 15" cannon) and my Admiral Hipper all sport WW1 Imperial markings (hard to see in 1/144 scale). At public events, no one has ever expressed a problem with folks having German ships from WW II.

The only time I've ever seen someone raise a concern, was when a friend purchased a Bismarck from someone else in the hobby and brought it to the club's next battle. The model was originally painted with the big red and black swastika on the bow, similar to the historical ship. My friend didn't think much about it, until a visitor at the event expressed their opinion that the markings were inappropriate. By the next month's event, the deck was sanded clean and refinished. Bismarck has been wreaking havoc with the allied fleet for over ten years now, without any further comments as to her heritage.

So, I agree with Kimball. There is nothing wrong with modeling something from that era. If you do decide to take your models into the public, it's the symbols on them that can evoke feelings. BTW, I have a panzer division train loosely based upon the 130th Panzer Lehr. (Yes, at one point I was a serious war gamer). It's a hypothetical BR53 with a slowly growing collection of flat cars and 1/87 scale mechanized vehicles. The models all have period markings with iron crosses ... no swastikas.

I'm not sure if I will ever take this train to a show, but I have no shame in owning it. It represents a time in my life where I spent countless hours pushing the cursed allies back into the English Channel (Avalon Hill's Longest Day). Actually though, short of getting extremely lucky on weather die rolls or playing the Rommel setup scenario where mechanized units are near the beaches, the allies invariably win an extremely brutal battle of attrition by the end of the summerWink
Rob
Mackenrode Wende Bahn
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#5 Posted : 20 January 2021 02:59:37(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,858
I think it has little to do with the era, at all. It has more to do with the intent of the prototype.

The glorification of any war, and the equipment used for it, no matter what side is questionable. The more people have been involved in war, the less that want to model it.

Most rollingstock was not designed as war related, again no matter what era/side. On the other hand, certain cannons, and ships etc. are most clearly war machines and, yes, represent considerable engineering achievements, but those, or similar, or even better, achievements can just as easily be celebrated in models of things that were not designed to kill people.

So, a locomotive designed in Germany in say 1920-1930 might be socially and morally acceptable. But if someone creates a train of cattle cars that are detailed to represent a train carrying people to the gas chambers, they have some issues to deal with other than the specifics of the locomotive.

Some countries ban the representation of regalia in case it encourages those who think war is great. Most laws only exists because of people who do not have the sense and education to know better, thus requiring morally objectionable behavior to be forbidden by law. Do this thought experiment; pick any reasonable law, and ask why the law was made - the answer will be that some a*holes did not have the judgement and had to be forced, by law, to be better people. The side effect is that it sometimes curtails a small set of freedoms, such as buying a model of a Nazi train complete with swastikas and a load of Zyclon B.

Chances are if you are wondering about the morality of what you are thinking of doing, it is probably better to do something else. (This applies to anything in life.)
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
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Offline artfull dodger  
#6 Posted : 20 January 2021 03:29:00(UTC)
artfull dodger

United States   
Joined: 31/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 419
Location: Indiana, Kokomo
The engine I like from the period is Marklins 3469/3769 E19 electric in that dark red. Along with the passenger cars it pulled.
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Offline mrmarklin  
#7 Posted : 20 January 2021 05:57:15(UTC)
mrmarklin

United States   
Joined: 27/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 850
Location: Burney, CA
Originally Posted by: artfull dodger Go to Quoted Post
Is the modeling of era 2 in the mid to late 1930s still considered taboo? Marklin makes some nice DRG models but......? No troop or other regalia, just loads of tanks, aircraft. Nothing that relates to AH or his party. Just the beautiful trains of that period Mike


It’s certainly not taboo for me. One must remember that the era starts approx. 1920. From that time until the end of the war some of the greatest innovations in steam technology were achieved. And some of the best Loks were developed.
All in all the thirties were a tremendous period for railway progress, not only in Europe, but around the world.

Märklin has made several Kreigsloks and a couple of them in camouflage. To do military trains of the period one must turn largely to other producers, like Artitec. Märklin has done a couple of sets of era two airplane trains.
From the People's Republik of Kalifornia
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Online H0  
#8 Posted : 20 January 2021 09:10:30(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,253
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: artfull dodger Go to Quoted Post
The engine I like from the period is Marklins 3469/3769 E19 electric in that dark red. Along with the passenger cars it pulled.
That is a model of a museum loco. And AFAIK it was never operational in that museum livery.

For a red era II version, look at 39192. 39193 is the museum livery again.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline IanC  
#9 Posted : 20 January 2021 12:04:14(UTC)
IanC

United Kingdom   
Joined: 05/03/2016(UTC)
Posts: 233
Location: England, Bedford
This is why my collection starts in the 1960s when the good guys were back in control and the "wirtschafts Wunder" or economic miracle was underway. I recently made an exception to buy the beautiful steam Rheingold from the Weimar era which I think I could justify. I would be seriously worried about anyone that wanted to run a Kriegslok with a rake of Oppelen cars representing the Holocaust era. That said, many a loco was built before and during the war and served long after in civilian form. There was much technical innovation during the war and imports of locos from the USA, identical standard German types built in occupied countries and taken in reparations after the war. Britain had its own version of a Kriegslok and the mythical BR53 is a history lesson in itself. The spread eagle motive on museums locos and models tends to have the hackenkreuze / swastica removed or obliterated. We should not forget, neither should we glorify the role of the bahn in WW2 and I think commercially it is best avoided. What you choose to model is between you and your conscience but for what it's worth you will have my distain and disapproval. I was disturbed to see once a model railway diorama of a meeting between Hitler and Mussolini and could only think Why? Recently, there have been some incidents where heritage railways have staged WW2 weekends which were all a jolly jape until the German SS turned up in costume. Many people were offended and some people of Jewish descent were hurt and outraged. Please tread carefully and sensitively over the past. Bismark, the statesman after whom the battleship was named, is quoted as saying "Laws and sausages, you don't want to know what went into them!"

IanC
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Offline hxmiesa  
#10 Posted : 20 January 2021 12:54:56(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,286
Location: Spain
Modelling war and creating realistic displays is not wrong.
Glorifying nazism and killing is!
Modelling a concentration camp with perfectly created details of preiserleins being graphically tortured and murdered is just sick...

However... The subject is sooo big. F.x. one might want to model the POW camp from the TV-series Hogans Heroes. I dont think anybody would think badly of that.

The black humour series ´Allo ´Allo ran for several years, complete with SS and Gestapo atroceties.

I remember seeing a video on Youtube of a complete H0 railroad layout based on the castle and theme of Where eagles dare.

I find all of these things OK. It´s simply a question of when things become tasteless, which means that the fine line is very personal.
I´m with Dale; If you have to ask, then you have probably already passed the line of the majority of people.

Answering the OP´s question specifically;
Quote:
No troop or other regalia, just loads of tanks, aircraft. Nothing that relates to AH or his party. Just the beautiful trains of that period

I would find that completly OK.
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
Offline PJMärklin  
#11 Posted : 20 January 2021 13:22:25(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,961
Location: Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: artfull dodger Go to Quoted Post
The engine I like from the period is Marklins 3469/3769 E19 electric in that dark red. Along
with the passenger cars it pulled.
That is a model of a museum loco. And AFAIK it was never operational in that museum livery.

For a red era II version, look at 39192. 39193 is the museum livery again.


Hello Tom,

May I please ask you, is the image below (given the colour corruptions of era photography and the
consequences of more modern image colour transcription) representative of the prototype series
of the model livery to which the above posts refer? Is the prototype loco a shade of Red?

The image looks rather "operational" to me.OhMyGod

I sincerely apologise to the members of this forum for posting such an image (of E 1902 - purported
to have been taken in 1940 and commensurately emblemed) that may be offensive by its insignia
to some folk (including me) on a public forum.Blushing Sad .

I did hesitate a fair bit before sending this post - I am somewhat worried where this thread may be heading.


UserPostedImage


Regards Tom, I enjoy your posts,

Philip
Offline Unholz  
#12 Posted : 20 January 2021 14:25:13(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,300
Location: Switzerland
Originally Posted by: PJMärklin Go to Quoted Post

The image looks rather "operational" to me.

Sorry for butting in, I'm not Tom, but could it be that this is or was actually a black and white picture that was partially colored at a later stage? It seems unusual to me that only certain parts in the image are remarkably red, while for instance the visible skins of the staff around the locomotive are white. The track and ground in the foreground also don't show any kind of vegetation and rust etc.

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Online H0  
#13 Posted : 20 January 2021 14:30:02(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,253
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: PJMärklin Go to Quoted Post
May I please ask you, is the image below (given the colour corruptions of era photography and the
consequences of more modern image colour transcription) representative of the prototype series
of the model livery to which the above posts refer? Is the prototype loco a shade of Red?
The picture shows an E 19 0x. The E 19 1x in red (moulded by Märklin) didn't have red sandboxes or red windshields.
In the museum they painted an E 19 1x based on photos of E 19 0x.
E 19 1x have the bulky bump on the roof which E 19 0x do not have.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Hannes Porsche  
#14 Posted : 20 January 2021 21:42:29(UTC)
Hannes Porsche

South Africa   
Joined: 08/12/2015(UTC)
Posts: 48
Location: Western Cape, South Africa
Hi, all.

I have two similar E-Loks: E 18 and DB 118. One silver and the other beige and blue. Both from Marklin SOMO set 3667. None supplied with the Whermacht insignia.
I understood that on some E-Loks the badge was supplied lose in the box, for the owner to apply on the loko if they wanted.
I also understood Liliput and Roco supplied the "bage" loosely.
Nowhere could I find that item listed on any parts list, as I wanted to apply the badge one of my E-lokos.

For me I do not see any harm in doing so. The past is gone..............
If all "wrong doings" on this world have to be avoided we would not get anywhere, or return to the dark ages.
Just refer to certain technologies, chemistry and cars. Those are used and accepted all over the world.

In any case why are some people not offended by many model planes assembled, painted, de-called and exhibited as such all over the world.??
Just mentioning this, as the mistakes of this country, South Africa, is thrown into my face every day, and I was not even born then.

Let us move on, and show more sensitivity to what is to come of an overpopulated world.

Thanks,

HANNES.

( No offence intended)
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Offline danmarklinman  
#15 Posted : 20 January 2021 22:54:08(UTC)
danmarklinman

United Kingdom   
Joined: 18/10/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,271
Originally Posted by: Hannes Porsche Go to Quoted Post
Hi, all.

I have two similar E-Loks: E 18 and DB 118. One silver and the other beige and blue. Both from Marklin SOMO set 3667. None supplied with the Whermacht insignia.
I understood that on some E-Loks the badge was supplied lose in the box, for the owner to apply on the loko if they wanted.
I also understood Liliput and Roco supplied the "bage" loosely.
Nowhere could I find that item listed on any parts list, as I wanted to apply the badge one of my E-lokos.

For me I do not see any harm in doing so. The past is gone..............
If all "wrong doings" on this world have to be avoided we would not get anywhere, or return to the dark ages.
Just refer to certain technologies, chemistry and cars. Those are used and accepted all over the world.

In any case why are some people not offended by many model planes assembled, painted, de-called and exhibited as such all over the world.??
Just mentioning this, as the mistakes of this country, South Africa, is thrown into my face every day, and I was not even born then.

Let us move on, and show more sensitivity to what is to come of an overpopulated world.

Thanks,

HANNES.

( No offence intended)


Nicely put, armour modelling is very popular and perhaps it evokes an interest in history, so a train of armour will create interest itself. You can’t undo the past but you must move on and remember as well. Otherwise the human race will never learn.
Personally I love to learn about history. But it’s shocking how many people hate others without any personal reason for doing so.
Marklin and Piko era 4 SNCB , Marklin wagons
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Faller fan including car system
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Offline mrmarklin  
#16 Posted : 20 January 2021 23:46:19(UTC)
mrmarklin

United States   
Joined: 27/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 850
Location: Burney, CA
Originally Posted by: Hannes Porsche Go to Quoted Post
Hi, all.

I have two similar E-Loks: E 18 and DB 118. One silver and the other beige and blue. Both from Marklin SOMO set 3667. None supplied with the Whermacht insignia.
I understood that on some E-Loks the badge was supplied lose in the box, for the owner to apply on the loko if they wanted.
I also understood Liliput and Roco supplied the "bage" loosely.
Nowhere could I find that item listed on any parts list, as I wanted to apply the badge one of my E-lokos.

For me I do not see any harm in doing so. The past is gone..............
If all "wrong doings" on this world have to be avoided we would not get anywhere, or return to the dark ages.
Just refer to certain technologies, chemistry and cars. Those are used and accepted all over the world.

In any case why are some people not offended by many model planes assembled, painted, de-called and exhibited as such all over the world.??
Just mentioning this, as the mistakes of this country, South Africa, is thrown into my face every day, and I was not even born then.

Let us move on, and show more sensitivity to what is to come of an overpopulated world.

Thanks,

HANNES.

( No offence intended)


AFAIK Maerklin has never supplied any of their post WW2 models with the Hakenkreuz to be applied later. I own all of the E18 Era 2 period correct models produced by Mother M. Had you applied the Hakenkreuz to your models, that would have been anachronistic, as these are Era 3 items.Cool

The DB museum has the E18 on display with the Hakenkreuz on the front of the model. So although it is not currently legal to produce items with this logo in Germany, the museum has the historically correct treatment on display.
From the People's Republik of Kalifornia
Offline Mr. Ron  
#17 Posted : 21 January 2021 19:10:22(UTC)
Mr. Ron

United States   
Joined: 05/07/2020(UTC)
Posts: 112
Location: Mississippi, Vancleave
We can point to the display of the Confederate flag in the same vane as the Nazi swastika. I think it is ok to display it as a part of history in a museum or private setting.
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Offline artfull dodger  
#18 Posted : 21 January 2021 20:34:55(UTC)
artfull dodger

United States   
Joined: 31/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 419
Location: Indiana, Kokomo
And much like things from that time frame in Germany, the Confederate battle flag also can get strong reactions these days. I do wish Marklin would make a model of the Italian 2-8-0 that was used in Von Ryan's Express, one of the better WWII movies with a train in it, along we several star actors. And yes, on a 1930's era layout, the focus would be on the trains and exclude certain types of trains as there is no need to model certain things. There was even a railroad in the USA that used that now hated cross that AH used. The Chicago Attica and Southern, a small obsure coal hauling line along the Indiana/Illinois state line used it in their logo on the tenders. Long before it became a symbol of hate. He soon when funds permit, I will pickup one of the 3469/3769 electrics and maybe a later DR engine from more modern times. Just certain engines are attractive to me for their looks and no so much that time frame. My railways always seem to end up with a railway museum look or I switch up the era to run different locomotives. Mike
Silly NT's..I have Asperger's Syndrome!!!!
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Offline Mr. Ron  
#19 Posted : 24 January 2021 19:38:42(UTC)
Mr. Ron

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Posts: 112
Location: Mississippi, Vancleave
Model ships, vehicles and airplanes are readily available with nazi era markings. Why should trains be treated any differently.
Online H0  
#20 Posted : 25 January 2021 10:39:42(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,253
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Mr. Ron Go to Quoted Post
Model ships, vehicles and airplanes are readily available with nazi era markings.
Are they?
Rules are somewhat strict in Germany - and Märklin probably won't make models they cannot sell in their main market.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Mr. Ron  
#21 Posted : 25 January 2021 17:48:20(UTC)
Mr. Ron

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Location: Mississippi, Vancleave
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mr. Ron Go to Quoted Post
Model ships, vehicles and airplanes are readily available with nazi era markings.
Are they?
Rules are somewhat strict in Germany - and Märklin probably won't make models they cannot sell in their main market.


I'm talking about plastic models made by Revell and other non-Marklin companies.

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Offline Webmaster  
#22 Posted : 25 January 2021 19:24:53(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,123
I just love Era II models, kind of the time period when train travel was the thing.
New steamer, electric and diesel designs were made during that Era and continued to be used long into Era III and even IV, plus older Era I locos were carried over to new designation numbers in Germany.

Not to mention all the experimental ones as eg the rail Zeppelin, Franco-Crosti boiler locos and so on... Love
Even the UP "Big Boy" is an Era II loco... Smile
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
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Offline Michael4  
#23 Posted : 25 January 2021 19:43:57(UTC)
Michael4

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Joined: 02/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 522
Location: England, South Coast
Not to mention the Bulleid Q1 class C1 across the channel...
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Online H0  
#24 Posted : 25 January 2021 19:45:20(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,253
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Mr. Ron Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mr. Ron Go to Quoted Post
Model ships, vehicles and airplanes are readily available with nazi era markings.
Are they?
Rules are somewhat strict in Germany - and Märklin probably won't make models they cannot sell in their main market.


I'm talking about plastic models made by Revell and other non-Marklin companies.
Since the '80s they come without swastikas in Germany.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline mbarreto  
#25 Posted : 25 January 2021 22:11:28(UTC)
mbarreto

Portugal   
Joined: 18/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 953

Era II German trains are great and so where ships and planes and many other things I don't care about, all of Era II. British and Amreicans were also great!

I tend to focus in the best aspects of the subjects, not in the bad side. I think it is healthier.

Mostly Märklin H0.


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Offline Mr. Ron  
#26 Posted : 07 March 2021 18:07:23(UTC)
Mr. Ron

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Posts: 112
Location: Mississippi, Vancleave
There are also many models of Imperial Japanese war machines displaying the rising sun flag on the market.
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#27 Posted : 07 March 2021 19:09:42(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,858
There is a very subtle and very important difference between doing what is legal and what is morally OK.

Essentially all laws are an attempt to stop people from being assholes, but sadly it usually insufficient. The only thing that is truly effective is death.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
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Offline Mr. Ron  
#28 Posted : 09 March 2021 22:36:05(UTC)
Mr. Ron

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Posts: 112
Location: Mississippi, Vancleave
There are some WWII Marklin trains now on EBAY showing the Nazi swastika.
Offline GG1 Fan  
#29 Posted : 24 March 2021 07:25:48(UTC)
GG1 Fan


Joined: 30/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 721
Location: Stamford, CT USA
The Forum Webmaster beat me to it!

Yes, the Rail Zeppelin was developed in German in the 1930's. While it looked like aluminum, it was actually made of plywood and then painted to look like that. It never left the test track except for one test. During that test, when it entered the station it kicked up so much dust and pebbles that it all flew into people's eyes and clothing. Sure, put a massive propeller at the back of a passenger train and run it into a station...what could possibly go wrong?

There is a rumor that this proto-type was actually being use for.....a test bed for U-Boat diesel engines? How diabolical!! By the Treaty of Versailles restrictions, the Germans were prohibited from developing U-Boat technology. However, if you stick the engine in a train.....put a propeller on the back of it....no one will suspect...

As for me, well, my layout was not strictly historically accurate. (Train station was from the 1960's)

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Offline Alsterstreek  
#30 Posted : 24 March 2021 08:39:17(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
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Location: Southwesternmost
Originally Posted by: GG1 Fan Go to Quoted Post

Yes, the Rail Zeppelin was developed in German in the 1930's. While it looked like aluminum, it was actually made of plywood and then painted to look like that. It never left the test track except for one test.
[...]
There is a rumor that this proto-type was actually being use for.....a test bed for U-Boat diesel engines? How diabolical!! By the Treaty of Versailles restrictions, the Germans were prohibited from developing U-Boat technology. However, if you stick the engine in a train.....put a propeller on the back of it....no one will suspect...



I don’t even know where to start:

Developed in the 1930s (while constructed in 1929 AFAIK), plywood, a U-boat Diesel engine powering a high revolution propeller, a “test bed” that ran only once on tracks?

What is the source for this please?
Online H0  
#31 Posted : 24 March 2021 09:57:49(UTC)
H0


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Originally Posted by: GG1 Fan Go to Quoted Post
There is a rumor that this proto-type was actually being use for.....a test bed for U-Boat diesel engines?
In 1930 it was built with an aircraft engine. There are rumours that it was only a test bed for aircraft engines.
In 1932 it lost the propeller and was converted to hydraulic gears.
In 1934 a diesel engine was installed.

Like the real Zeppelin it had a aluminium frame covered with fabric and painted in silver. Plywood is not mentioned in the Wikipedia articles.

The propeller was not really efficient at speeds below 200 km/h and so they switched to hydraulic transmission really soon.
The aircraft engine was used for four years. It does not really look as if that train was a test bed for engines. If one wants to test engines and propellers secretly then a bunker probably is a better choice than a train.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline GG1 Fan  
#32 Posted : 24 March 2021 10:46:26(UTC)
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Yes, from the Wiki source:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schienenzeppelin

From the book I recall reading about, it was not the Rail Zeppelin itself, but rather the design team that was secretly working on the U-Boat engines. They excused the long hours and laboratory work as being part of the Rail Zeppelin project, while in fact the were working on the U-Boat diesel engine design.

So, while this remarkable train, ahead of its time, did make speed runs across Germany, it never entered into regular service. The plywood sides saved on weight.
Offline GG1 Fan  
#33 Posted : 24 March 2021 10:58:25(UTC)
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https://www.wired.com/2011/03/schienenzeppelin/


Then again, there was always the Nazi Gold Train....not plywood!

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Online H0  
#34 Posted : 24 March 2021 11:05:59(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: GG1 Fan Go to Quoted Post
So, while this remarkable train, ahead of its time, did make speed runs across Germany, it never entered into regular service. The plywood sides saved on weight.
It didn't have a diesel engine while it had a propeller. I found no source about plywood, German sources say it was painted fabric.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline GG1 Fan  
#35 Posted : 24 March 2021 11:13:56(UTC)
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Not actual archival footage, but fun never the less:




And, a German Locomotive from WWII, decked out in "Hitler Red"




(please don't mention the video quality from 10 years ago)
Offline Alsterstreek  
#36 Posted : 24 March 2021 11:25:10(UTC)
Alsterstreek

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Originally Posted by: GG1 Fan Go to Quoted Post
https://www.wired.com/2011/03/schienenzeppelin/

Then again, there was always the Nazi Gold Train....not plywood!
(1) This implies a Nazi connection, while the Schienenzeppelin construction and early "online" tests pre-dated 1933, when they seized power in Germany.

(2) And the picture shows an armored train. What is the connection to the apocryphal gold train please?

Originally Posted by: GG1 Fan Go to Quoted Post
It never left the test track except for one test.
The wired.com and wikipedia links you gave are contradicting.
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Online H0  
#37 Posted : 24 March 2021 11:28:03(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: GG1 Fan Go to Quoted Post
And, a German Locomotive from WWII, decked out in "Hitler Red"
Fantasy livery AFAIK.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline GG1 Fan  
#38 Posted : 24 March 2021 12:53:41(UTC)
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I have a book, somewhere that I will have to dig up. The front section of the Zeppelin Train had plywood cutouts for the lights and front end, it was not all stretched canvas and paint.

Gold train, well....Nazis and Trains. So, why not?

As for that red engine, I thought it was an actual production locomotive, covered with that sleek armored looking streamline. It was supposed to go 90 mph and pull coaches loaded with soldiers? Is that all made up? No!
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#39 Posted : 24 March 2021 13:12:28(UTC)
Alsterstreek

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Originally Posted by: GG1 Fan Go to Quoted Post
Gold train, well....Nazis and Trains. So, why not?
Things are getting mixed up here. Now, ignoring the Zeppelin and focusing on the picture and the caption: The way the picture and the caption are presented leaves the - misleading - impression that this armored train is the gold train.
Online H0  
#40 Posted : 24 March 2021 13:25:49(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: GG1 Fan Go to Quoted Post
As for that red engine, I thought it was an actual production locomotive, covered with that sleek armored looking streamline. It was supposed to go 90 mph and pull coaches loaded with soldiers? Is that all made up? No!
The loco has a streamlined shell to make it run faster, but it is not armoured. It was built in peacetime. It was a last-ditch effort of the steam loco industry to fight against the upcoming diesel locos and diesel railcars. Class 05 was painted red, but class 03.10 was not.
Phantasy livery. Not an armoured loco. Not built for soldier trains. Not all made up.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline PhillipL  
#41 Posted : 05 April 2021 23:40:00(UTC)
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As far as taboo or not, I think it is a personal choice. When I started my current DC layout I did have a good amount of era II models. To be honest, after a couple of years, I felt they were just not appropriate for me. This was not due any criticism I received (nor any pressure from the cancel culture), but rather I began to think what some of the equipment was used for in real life (supporting the war and the horrible policies). It really began to bother me until I removed the items from my collection.
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Offline Joop V  
#42 Posted : 09 April 2021 21:03:20(UTC)
Joop V

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After visiting a few musea in Germany , which are absolutely worth a visit,
I'll show 2 pics of the E19 , 1 in Berlin in the Technik Museum , the other in Nürnberg's Railroad museum.

DSC02499.JPG Berlin E19-01
Nurnberg 032.JPG Nürnberg E19-12
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Offline foumaro  
#43 Posted : 10 April 2021 05:04:45(UTC)
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History is history,i think that is better to know in order humanity avoid the same mistakes.I like the E19 model,i bought the 3769 marklin and upgrade the loco with esu loksound decoder but that it does not mean that i like wars.
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#44 Posted : 10 April 2021 14:45:53(UTC)
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believing that there is a left wing cancel culture in our own era is not only why we need to remember the past but is probably worse than someone modelling the past.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
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Online H0  
#45 Posted : 10 April 2021 18:11:58(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: foumaro Go to Quoted Post
I like the E19 model,i bought the 3769 marklin and upgrade the loco with esu loksound decoder but that it does not mean that i like wars.
That loco is era IV or era V, not era II.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline scraigen  
#46 Posted : 10 April 2021 21:43:24(UTC)
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I believe E19 to be era II, but that’s not really relevant to the original question. Seems like an odd question to me, the vehicles are just vehicles they’re not evil. You can appreciate the engineering without endorsing the regimes they were involved in.
Must build something
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Offline marklinist5999  
#47 Posted : 10 April 2021 22:03:28(UTC)
marklinist5999

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BigGrin
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
believing that there is a left wing cancel culture in our own era is not only why we need to remember the past but is probably worse than someone modelling the past.

Eagles have left and right wings!
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Offline dickinsonj  
#48 Posted : 11 April 2021 01:06:03(UTC)
dickinsonj

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Originally Posted by: scraigen Go to Quoted Post
You can appreciate the engineering without endorsing the regimes they were involved in.

That is exactly what I did a couple of years ago. I really wanted that museum E 19 loco in dark red, but its past did bother me, as it would any sane person IMO.

But it really was a beautiful machine that just came along at the wrong time. Mine has the Nazi era Reichsadler on the front in bold silver, but inside of the circle that the eagle sits on there is just a round disk.

In for a penny and in for a pound I needed some coaches and I bought a three year old Insider coach set of the D12, which are beautiful. They have the same Reichsadler on their sides as the loco does, so at least they are not completely accurate. But the eagle design is iconic and you can't see it without knowing what it represents.

However in my final analysis I decided just what Suart did, that it is a machine worth appreciating, while abhorring the time it came from.

So voting with my models I now have just one train from that time and it is beautiful, but I believe that one will be enough.

Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
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Offline mrmarklin  
#49 Posted : 11 April 2021 06:40:39(UTC)
mrmarklin

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The eagle has nothing to do with NSDAP. It has always been a symbol of the Kings of Prussia.

Remember the first Lok in Germany was named der Adler. The eagle.
From the People's Republik of Kalifornia
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Offline hxmiesa  
#50 Posted : 11 April 2021 10:59:02(UTC)
hxmiesa

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Originally Posted by: mrmarklin Go to Quoted Post
The eagle has nothing to do with NSDAP. It has always been a symbol of the Kings of Prussia.

That's not the issue. Part of the eagle-logo is that the eagle is sitting on top of a circle that has the swastika inside it. It seems like Märklin has chosen NOT to represent that part of the logo, but people in the know "see" it anyway, as that is what the original logo had!

Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
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