High Efficiency Motor in a Delta loco ? Share  Email this topic  LinkBack Topic URL  Retweet this Topic  Share Topic on Google+  Like this Topic  Share on Facebook  Digg this Topic  Reddit this Topic  Share on Tumblr Options  Watch this topic  Print this topic View » Normal Threaded

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Burqueno		#1 Posted : 25 February 2021 02:11:26(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/02/2021(UTC) Posts: 27 Location: New Mexico, Albuquerque		Hi, I'm brand new here and have just upgraded my new layout to digital using a Central Station 3(wow is that thing nice). I have twenty digitally equipped locomotives, but some are DELTA. I have a 33182 green S3/6 and a 33186 blue S3/6, both have the old wound field coil drum commutator motors with 4 dip switch Delta decoders. I though I could add the High Efficiency DC 5 pole motor kit to these to improve low speed performance, but I cannot figure out how to wire them up... The place I bought the motor kits from said I have to upgrade the decoder to a 60982 to make it work...so I'm wondering if this is really true, or if there is a way to just add the DC motor kit without changing the decoder.
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supermoee		#2 Posted : 25 February 2021 08:16:17(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 31/05/2007(UTC) Posts: 534		Hello yes, you have to change the decoder. Delta decoder cannot control DC engines. rgds Stephan
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nhumps		#3 Posted : 25 February 2021 12:51:54(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 17/12/2018(UTC) Posts: 115 Location: Kapiti Coast		Hi, and welcome! Yes, you must change out the delta decoder to drive the high efficiency DC motors. 60982 gives you a MFX, DCC, MM decoder and that will work out of the box with your CS3 You would then use/require the 60941 DCM kit for the motor upgrade on this loco There is another decoder; 60972 is a connector board version of the same 60982 decoder but you may have space constraints to fit it on some/these locos Alternatively the most cost effective upgrade for this loco would be a 60760 kit ( which includes a 60941 + basic MM2 decoder) - there are downsides vs the full blown MFX one.
1 user liked this useful post by nhumps		ktsolias
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Burqueno		#4 Posted : 25 February 2021 15:11:45(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/02/2021(UTC) Posts: 27 Location: New Mexico, Albuquerque		Thanks for the help, looks like it's time to buy a couple 60982 decoders--not going to be fun to install since I'm old, arthritic, wear bifocals, and my hands are the size of catchers mitts (some say bear paws). Will the CS3 automatically read these decoders like it does with my newer MFX locos? I may reuse the DELTA decoders in a couple of my old non digital locos.
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nhumps		#5 Posted : 25 February 2021 19:45:18(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 17/12/2018(UTC) Posts: 115 Location: Kapiti Coast		yes the 60982 mld3 or msd3 (if you want sound) are the retrofit kits which make older locos essentially the same as your factory MFX locos. They will be automatically picked up by the CS3 - this is the least hassle option. You will just want to decide if you want a wiring harness version ( 60982 ) or a 21-pin connector board version ( 60972 ) . Depends on space available but the 21-pin connector version leaves the door open to a future sound upgrade should you want to. If you only want MFX then avoid the cheaper 60760 kit decoder, it requires a manual locomotive add on the CS3, specifying a MM address of 72 at first, you can then reprogram them with CVs to change the MM address.
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Burqueno		#6 Posted : 26 February 2021 02:18:03(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/02/2021(UTC) Posts: 27 Location: New Mexico, Albuquerque		So I ordered a couple of the 60982 decoders to put in with the High Efficiency Motor kits. Not sure about the wire colors (The Marklin instruction book shows both NEM and Marklin colors, guess I'll see when the get here. On a plus note, it does look very easy to swap the Delta decoder/wiring into an all analog engine pretty easily.
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nhumps		#7 Posted : 26 February 2021 02:56:52(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 17/12/2018(UTC) Posts: 115 Location: Kapiti Coast		the 60982 come in NEM colours, the chart in the instructions give you the marklin comparison. "Please note that the colors for the wires conform to the Europen NEM standard" page 24 of the manual gives you that guidance :) https://static.maerklin....2e44f7c0851604051046.pdf ref: https://www.maerklin.de/...ts/details/article/60982
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Burqueno		#8 Posted : 26 February 2021 05:21:01(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/02/2021(UTC) Posts: 27 Location: New Mexico, Albuquerque		The table shows motor connection two is: NEM gray MARKLIN blue So I would solder the grey wire of the decoder to the blue wire in the loco (better to just solder the grey to where the blue was)
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nhumps		#9 Posted : 26 February 2021 21:36:38(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 17/12/2018(UTC) Posts: 115 Location: Kapiti Coast		yes grey and orange are the NEM colours for the motor connections. Directly attach them to the pads on the new motor cover in the same way as it appears now. You will probably need an isolated bulb holder E276770 lamp socket (incl cables) or E604180 (no cables and much cheaper) and new marklin E610080 bulb if you don't have a 2-pin bulb in place already (probably unlikely with it originally being DELTA) - this isolates the bulb from returning in the chassis ground. The decoder has a return for light bulbs to use (Blue in NEM standard, Common wire for lights) useful reference on converting locos: https://www.marklin-user...al-conversion-of-M-locos
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Burqueno		#10 Posted : 27 February 2021 01:56:39(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/02/2021(UTC) Posts: 27 Location: New Mexico, Albuquerque		Thanks for the help..one last question: what do I do with any unused wires, just roll them up or snip them off?
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nhumps		#11 Posted : 27 February 2021 03:21:44(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 17/12/2018(UTC) Posts: 115 Location: Kapiti Coast		Roll them up and or snip them off to a length that you could reuse at a later date if required. I’d recommend cutting them at an offset and heat shrink them together or heat shrink each and tape together. Whatever you do You don’t want anything to ground and some of them you definitely wouldn’t want to touch each other else the decoder could be ruined.
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Burqueno		#12 Posted : 27 February 2021 16:57:37(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/02/2021(UTC) Posts: 27 Location: New Mexico, Albuquerque		Thanks for the advice!. I'm going to remove the DELTA chip/wiring from my 33182 today and try installing it in an old P8 Baden loco (pretty Blue 3091) I'll just hook the wires up exactly like they are in the 33182 and it should run fine.
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Burqueno		#13 Posted : 04 March 2021 06:25:53(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/02/2021(UTC) Posts: 27 Location: New Mexico, Albuquerque		I got the 60982 decoders today. I'm going to try installing one this weekend and will transfer the Delta parts to an EP5 electric loco (a brown 3366 from the 2860 set of 1988)
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Burqueno		#14 Posted : 10 March 2021 06:33:36(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/02/2021(UTC) Posts: 27 Location: New Mexico, Albuquerque		I finally finished removing the Delta Chip/wiring from the green 33182 and successfully installed it in the Brown EP5 electric loco. I had to move the decoder around quite a bit, I first tried standing it up on edge, but it was 1/4" too tall, finally ended up lying it flat in the rear section past where the old reversing was right up near the rear light. It works wonderfully on the CS3 (nice slow speed operation all the way down to 12khm before it stops...not bad for an old field coil motor. I will start on the full digital conversion of the Green S 3/6 (#33182) this weekend if I don't have a bad reaction to my second Covid-19 vaccination on Friday (1st one I got three weeks ago gave me 1/2 a day of chills & a bad headache, but I was fine by evening- many people have a far worse reaction to the 2nd shot).
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Burqueno		#15 Posted : 17 March 2021 05:27:03(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/02/2021(UTC) Posts: 27 Location: New Mexico, Albuquerque		I finally had time to sit down and go through the rats nest of wires that came on the new decoder and found the ones I needed to use: Green to smoke unit, Black to ground tab on motor, White to front light, Yellow to rear light, Blue to both lights (common), Red to the center shoe, Orange to front motor connection, and Grey to rear motor connection. All the rest (6 wires) were bundled up and shrink wrapped individually then together and routed to the tender for storage. Note: There is no need to remove the cylinders to solder on the front light connections. The rod linkages are nasty little buggers that don't like to go back in their respective holes! The 33182 (now a "37182") runs super smooth, especially low speed- it starts and runs as slow as 1 on the CS3 speed control. I'm very happy with the way it turned out, but I need to find slightly longer screws for the motor plate before I tackle the 33186 "Ludwig" loco
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Burqueno		#16 Posted : 17 March 2021 05:31:15(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/02/2021(UTC) Posts: 27 Location: New Mexico, Albuquerque		Does anybody know off hand what size thread is used on the motor plate bolts?
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PJMärklin		#17 Posted : 17 March 2021 10:17:52(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC) Posts: 2,226 Location: Hobart, Australia		Originally Posted by: Burqueno Does anybody know off hand what size thread is used on the motor plate bolts? M2 but some are wider. Edited by user 18 March 2021 09:36:28(UTC)  | Reason: annotated
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Burqueno		#18 Posted : 17 March 2021 14:14:43(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/02/2021(UTC) Posts: 27 Location: New Mexico, Albuquerque		Thanks, I'm sure ACE Hardware will have some long ones that I can cut down to size.
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Crazy Harry		#19 Posted : 17 March 2021 14:30:05(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 18/11/2008(UTC) Posts: 489 Location: Oakville, Ontario		Originally Posted by: Burqueno Thanks, I'm sure ACE Hardware will have some long ones that I can cut down to size. You might have better luck at a hobby shop that specializes in Radio Control (RC) models, they usually have a huge assortment of small diameter screws of various lengths and metric. Harold.
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kiwiAlan		#20 Posted : 17 March 2021 20:05:25(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC) Posts: 8,224 Location: ENGLAND, Didcot		Originally Posted by: Burqueno ...but I need to find slightly longer screws for the motor plate before I tackle the 33186 "Ludwig" loco Are you sure about this? The magnet supplied in the motor kit is thicker, but the supplied brush plate is thinner than fitted to the original motor. If you try and use the original motor brush plate the armature will have end play and won't run properly.
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Burqueno		#21 Posted : 17 March 2021 23:58:36(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/02/2021(UTC) Posts: 27 Location: New Mexico, Albuquerque		I used the new thinner brush plate but with the metal part being so much thicker the screws only caught two to 2 1/2 threads
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river6109		#22 Posted : 18 March 2021 01:08:40(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC) Posts: 14,782 Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square		Originally Posted by: Burqueno I used the new thinner brush plate but with the metal part being so much thicker the screws only caught two to 2 1/2 threads so long as the screw is tight you don't have to worryhow many turns it did. John
		https://www.youtube.com/river6109 https://www.youtube.com/6109river 5 years in Destruction mode 50 years in Repairing mode
		WWW
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Burqueno		#23 Posted : 18 March 2021 01:18:30(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/02/2021(UTC) Posts: 27 Location: New Mexico, Albuquerque		I stripped one, and had to use lock-tite. As a former machinist and aircraft mechanic, the old rule of thumb is 8 to 10 threads for fine threads (5 for course) and a bolt should be long enough for 3 threads to protrude from a nut).
2 users liked this useful post by Burqueno		dickinsonj, Crazy Harry
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Burqueno		#24 Posted : 19 March 2021 05:26:29(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/02/2021(UTC) Posts: 27 Location: New Mexico, Albuquerque		So the motor plate screws in the 37186 (Ludwig S 3/6) were 1/8" longer than the ones in the green 33182 and work just fine... saved a trip to the hardware store!
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Burqueno		#25 Posted : 22 March 2021 06:06:15(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/02/2021(UTC) Posts: 27 Location: New Mexico, Albuquerque		So far I have converted two little Baden P8s (2545 and 3091) EP5 electric, and the S 3/6 (33182) I would have finished the 33186 but ran out of my Radio Shack .015 silver solder and had to order a couple more rolls. My Weller Soldering Station and this thin solder (along with a very bright desk light) have made doing these conversions super simple, I'm glad I gave it a try and saved my old favorite engines. I have a couple more to do: Finish putting the 60982 decoder the 33186, and then I'm going to put 60906 decoders my ancient 3109 T-18 tank loco, and my V200 Diesel (I won't have to change the motors to DC using that decoder).
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bph		#26 Posted : 22 March 2021 17:32:52(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC) Posts: 1,034		Originally Posted by: Burqueno So far I have converted two little Baden P8s (2545 and 3091) EP5 electric, and the S 3/6 (33182) I would have finished the 33186 but ran out of my Radio Shack .015 silver solder and had to order a couple more rolls. My Weller Soldering Station and this thin solder (along with a very bright desk light) have made doing these conversions super simple, I'm glad I gave it a try and saved my old favorite engines. I have a couple more to do: Finish putting the 60982 decoder the 33186, and then I'm going to put 60906 decoders my ancient 3109 T-18 tank loco, and my V200 Diesel (I won't have to change the motors to DC using that decoder). Nice to see that you have saved some good old locomotives. A good soldering station certainly helps, I'm also happy with Weller. 60906 is a good decoder in the right cases, even if it has some drawbacks. I have used it myself in a few locomotives and like it. It's better than a Delta decoder. (my primary decoder choice is an msd3). The 60906 can also control the field coil version of the high-efficiency motor from the 35xx series locomotives. it's not officially designed for it, but it works quite well.
1 user liked this useful post by bph		kimballthurlow
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ktsolias		#27 Posted : 22 March 2021 23:37:04(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 01/05/2016(UTC) Posts: 612 Location: Athens		Hi This is one of my conversion of a BR 18.4 the same frame In a DCM motor 60941 set you don't need to change the screws. The old ones are OK. The screws anyway are M2 12 as I remember The decoder is the 60985. The speaker in the tender Costas
2 users liked this useful post by ktsolias		foumaro, kimballthurlow
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Burqueno		#28 Posted : 30 March 2021 07:55:41(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/02/2021(UTC) Posts: 27 Location: New Mexico, Albuquerque		Just finished putting a 60906 Decoder (for use with the old AC field coil motors) in my BR221 Diesel (#3482). It didn't work at all at first, my CS3 would not read/recognize it. I tinkered around with the wiring and found the red wire to the shoe questionable, so I re-soldered the lower connection at the shoe and just like magic the CS3 read the decoder. It ran fine, only it was going backwards: the red reverse lights went on when going forward, the white headlights came on when in reverse. I swapped the green & blue wires to the field coil around and all was well. It runs at ridiculously low speeds for an AC field coil motor: I only need to set the speed to One in reverse and Three in forward to get it to move- all my other AC motors won't budge until the speed is set to 15-20.
3 users liked this useful post by Burqueno		bph, Martti Mäntylä, dickinsonj
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Burqueno		#29 Posted : 03 April 2021 03:13:34(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/02/2021(UTC) Posts: 27 Location: New Mexico, Albuquerque		Last night I completed the 60906 decoder install into my T18 Tank loco (#3109): It works very well, I just had to swap the blue and green wires at the field coil (I always seem to put them in backwards the first time) This loco looks like I could have fit a 60941 DC motor kit into it (with maybe a bit of grinding at the very back, but maybe not needed), but since it has no option to add a smoke unit I left it with the old AC motor.
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Burqueno		#30 Posted : 14 April 2021 06:04:00(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/02/2021(UTC) Posts: 27 Location: New Mexico, Albuquerque		I finished installing the 60941 high efficiency DC motor and 60982 decoder in my 33186 "King Ludwig" S3/6 this afternoon: all went great until I let it go too fast and it bent the connecting rods like pretzels and locked up. Seems as though a couple of the wheels spun on their axle shafts and got out of alignment. I had to remove all three wheels on the none geared side so I could line the wheels up on the gear side and install the linkage. I attempted to "quarter" the wheels on the other side and installed the linkage. I put it back on the track and it went to Pretzel city all over again. I took the wheels off the non geared side again and straightened the linkages then put it away for the night - it got too dark in the room to see well enough to try again... oh well, now I have something to do this weekend...
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dominator		#31 Posted : 14 April 2021 08:35:42(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC) Posts: 1,198 Location: Kerikeri		Use a wicking loctite to make sure the wheels stay quartered correctly. Some loco wheels are not tight enough on their axles.
		Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä
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Burqueno		#32 Posted : 26 April 2021 00:23:09(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/02/2021(UTC) Posts: 27 Location: New Mexico, Albuquerque		I finally got the 33186 Ludwig put back together...I had to get new side rods as the originals were so bent out of shape (the holes in the ends and center were elongated badly) that it developed a "hitch in its get along" at the 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock positions. Two of the wheels were so loose on the axles that I could pull them off with zero effort. Loc-tite fixed that problem right up, and the new side rods got rid of the "hitch". After the fiasco with this loco, I used my CS3 to reset the max speed down from 255 to 160 on all my other S 3/6 locos, which is plenty fast enough and should help avoid the wheels slipping on the axles.
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