Welcome to the forum   
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Share
Options
View
Go to last post in this topic Go to first unread post in this topic
Offline David240945  
#1 Posted : 16 February 2021 21:52:46(UTC)
David240945


Joined: 10/01/2020(UTC)
Posts: 34
Location: England, Swindon
I have an analog layout with block signalling using M track. I am running three trains on a 4 block system. Unfortunately as foreseen by Marklin in p 43 of (English) version of the 0341 Signal handbook (1967) trains going at different speed eg rail-car v long goods tend to overrun the blocks.

I have therefore installed the 7045 universal remote control switches wired as shown in the handbook with each block . Unfortunately it is not working . The trains switch the signals to red on the appropriate contact rail but they do not switch the signals to green at the appropriate rail.

Has anyone used this system and can offer advice on what I am doing wrong.

Don’t suggest going digital ! This layout is designed as a 1940-60’s nostalgia set!!

DavidS24
Offline analogmike  
#2 Posted : 16 February 2021 22:15:10(UTC)
analogmike

United States   
Joined: 02/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 688
Location: NEW JERSEY, USA
Are you using the center/ slider contact track or the ground rail type?
Mikey
I love the smell of smoke fluid in the morning .
Offline David240945  
#3 Posted : 17 February 2021 10:37:25(UTC)
David240945


Joined: 10/01/2020(UTC)
Posts: 34
Location: England, Swindon
Thanks for quick response Mickey.

I am using both as there are no ground rail type large radius curves or half rail and the block geometry means I have to have them on curves in some places . Normally I don’t like to use slide toggle contact rails as the stick but have no choic without completely redesigning the layout.

The slide toggle contact rails were not invented when 0341 book was written so maybe using them is a problem?

Any thoughts

David
Offline JohnjeanB  
#4 Posted : 17 February 2021 11:16:16(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,733
Location: Paris, France
Hi David
The slider-operated contact tracks (5146, 5147, 5213) offered then a huge improvement over regular contacts tracks (5104 and 5105) tracks espacially if you have one slider per train (no lighted coaches). Agreed, if you have multiple sliders on your trains it get a bit more complicated but still an improvement.

The reason is you avoid the following problems:
* if one of the trains is very long it will command its signal to red and the previous one to green but for a very long time (so it may override the following train order to turn its signal to red (so it may remain green and make a collision.
* long trains increase the probability to leave a train standing on the contact rail and burning the corresponding solenoids.

Back around 1965, I was a great fan of these slider-operated contact rails (matter of taste) and I was not the only one as Märklin removed later the regular contacts tracks.
Cheers

Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
Offline auntmartha  
#5 Posted : 17 February 2021 17:19:32(UTC)
auntmartha

Denmark   
Joined: 29/09/2011(UTC)
Posts: 26
Location: Soenderhav
The slider-operated "schaltgleis" - circuit track works electrically layout-wise exactly as the contact-track, so no problem using that.
The schaltgleis is operating by ALL and ANY slider, so if yoru train has more sliders this could have a negative effect.
The contact-track is enfluenced by ALL and ANY axle where the wheel are not isolated.
So a very long contact-track section or long trains can have un-wanted effects.
Dont really understand why you would use the 7045 type relais as long as you only drive in one direction.
Having a schalt-gleis or contact track AFTER the signal will switch signal back to red.
The 7045 is ussually used for single line both-direction running, where the 7045
WITH a schalt or contact is used to negate the signal.
Yours sincerely / Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Bien cordialement
Mr. Christian Vinaa
http://www.vinaa.dk/trains
...... Meanwhile, aunt Martha, having taken a tramp in the woods,
is lying in a ditch at the edge of town .........................
Offline David240945  
#6 Posted : 17 February 2021 18:43:12(UTC)
David240945


Joined: 10/01/2020(UTC)
Posts: 34
Location: England, Swindon
Dear Jean, thanks for that. I don’t think the problem is with the type of contact rail as, before I installed the 7045 remote controls, the trains were operating the block ok but a very different train speeds (eg rail car v heavy Goods) meant sometimes they overtook the blocks. Also two of the blocks are using sliders.

I am not using long trains and they are not stopping on the contact rails so no burn out problem.

As to slider verses contact rail. I find advantages in both. The contact are more reliable so I like to use them in area that are difficult
To get to - tunnels etc, as I have had problem with sticking sliders - nearly 50% of mine are sticky and I have not been successful in trying to restore them!

A major advantage of sliders are that they were made for large radius curves and so I have no choice there.

I am wondering if the block system with remote controls was only designed with old contact rail in mind and for some reason won’t work with sliders ...??? But I can’t think why that should be the case.

Unfortunately the 3041 handbook is a bit vague in the subject. I have written to Marklin Insider Help, but fear they will not have a solution as they are obsessed with digital and commerce and so not really interested in nostalgia stuff. I even wonder if their techies understand the mysteries of their old analog stuff !

Best Regards

David
Offline JohnjeanB  
#7 Posted : 17 February 2021 19:24:56(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,733
Location: Paris, France
Hi David
Why does any train would go past a stop section? Are these too short?Usually 2 full rails are OK.
Why do you need a 7045 relay?

Here is the basis schematics for a loop with 3 blocks
Normal 3 blocks loop.png

Here is the more sophisticated loop schematics
Full protection 3 blocks loop.png
Cheers
Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
Offline David240945  
#8 Posted : 17 February 2021 19:45:47(UTC)
David240945


Joined: 10/01/2020(UTC)
Posts: 34
Location: England, Swindon
Thank you Christian, aka auntmartha,

The reason I use the 7045 is following the 0341 Signal Handbook advice , which identified that in some circumstances trains my overrun the blocks and catch up the train in front. This was happening on my layout due to a combination of slow and fast trains, different lengths of block stretches and possibly the location of the contact rail. The simplest solution seemed to be to install 7045 as per the diagram Fig 43 an h explanations on pages 43 and 44. I would like to be able to post that here but I have not yet mastered including illustrations on this site!

At the moment the second schalt glens is functioning correctly and switching the signal to redbud the first schaltgleis does not turn the signal behind at green as a the handbook says it should do.

I may try sending an email with attachments to show what I mean, as I see an email link below your post.

Regards David


Offline David240945  
#9 Posted : 17 February 2021 20:16:48(UTC)
David240945


Joined: 10/01/2020(UTC)
Posts: 34
Location: England, Swindon
Jean

Thank for those diagrams , I think I may have deleted one by mistake , but the important one is the Fig 38 you sent. (Fig 43 in the English version I have.) This shows the block system with the 7045 . (The 7045 are the ones marked A’ B’ and C’ in the middle of the circuit) I have installed them as per that diagram. When the train at C passes over C1 nothing happens, though the instructions say that it should, through the 7045, change Sig B and C to Green and release the train at B . On my circuit Train at C does go on to C2 and change Sig C to red thus stopping the following train coming from B as required.

It would be interesting whether the French instructions suggest this is how it should work

If auntmartha is following this Jeans Fig 38 is the one I failed to email!

Ay thoughts?

Amities David
Offline David240945  
#10 Posted : 17 February 2021 20:21:20(UTC)
David240945


Joined: 10/01/2020(UTC)
Posts: 34
Location: England, Swindon
Jean,

The answer to your question, why are my trains over running the block is in my 1945 hrs reply to auntmartha aka Christian
D
Offline Martti Mäntylä  
#11 Posted : 17 February 2021 22:49:10(UTC)
Martti Mäntylä

Finland   
Joined: 15/11/2018(UTC)
Posts: 238
Location: Uusimaa, Helsinki
I have not used this circuit myself, although otherwise I have used universal switches for various purposes. Now my curiosity is awakened so that I may actually try and build a test circuit to see how well this one works.

This is a fairly complex circuit which is easy to get wrong, so please double check the connections. If indeed, say, the circuit track c1 fails to turn signal B and universal switch B' to green, the simplest explanation is that the cable from switch C' to the B and B' is hooked to the wrong output socket of C'.

It is also a good idea to test that the switch outputs work as intended; sometimes the contact surfaces inside the switches need a bit cleaning to establish a good connection.

I just add that, as you may have noticed, the Märklin diagram (Fig. 38 shown above in Jean's post) has a small error: the red cable from switch A' should be connected to the first connector of the switch track a1, not the second.



- Martti M.
Era III analog & digital (Rocrail, CAN Digital Bahn, Gleisbox/MS2, K83/K84), C & M tracks, some Spur 1
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Martti Mäntylä
Offline JohnjeanB  
#12 Posted : 17 February 2021 23:24:17(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,733
Location: Paris, France
Originally Posted by: David240945 Go to Quoted Post
It would be interesting whether the French instructions suggest this is how it should work

There are no principle explanations with the French booklet.

How it works
* each signal (& stop section) is followed by 2 contact rails
* the first contact rail sends the impulse to the previous signal green and the previous relay green trough the relay while in green position
* the second contact rail turn the signal into red and turn the relay into red thus interrupting the command green to the previous signal and previous relay

The net result is no matter how long the trains are and what their speeds are, the signal is turned to green only during the period starting when the train reaches the 1st contact rail and till when it reaches the 2nd one.
On the other hand the signal is turned to red by each car rolling on the 2nd contact. (Red is activated for a long time while green is activated during a couple of seconds).

Of course, it is easy to connect the relay the other way around which result in not turning the signal to green.

This schematic is a clear demonstration on how the circuits were complicated before digital.
Cheers
Jean

My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
Offline analogmike  
#13 Posted : 18 February 2021 01:43:50(UTC)
analogmike

United States   
Joined: 02/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 688
Location: NEW JERSEY, USA
Hello David,
May we have some photos of the layout? It might be helpful.
Mikey
I love the smell of smoke fluid in the morning .
Offline David240945  
#14 Posted : 18 February 2021 21:23:38(UTC)
David240945


Joined: 10/01/2020(UTC)
Posts: 34
Location: England, Swindon
Mickey, I would like to be able to send you photos but have not mastered how to do it on the forum. Nor does the email button at bottom of your post allow attachments. I will use it to email you so you can send your email to me.
Offline Martti Mäntylä  
#15 Posted : 18 February 2021 21:39:19(UTC)
Martti Mäntylä

Finland   
Joined: 15/11/2018(UTC)
Posts: 238
Location: Uusimaa, Helsinki
As I indicated earlier, I decided to implement the circuit to see how it works. The test setup is shown in this short video:



For my purposes, two signals and two 7045's were quite sufficient. (Actually, one of the switches is a former signal that had lost its mast and got a new job.) Indeed this is a bit tricky to get to work, especially as my circuit tracks took a bit time to warm up for proper work. Also one of the signals had initially precisely the kind of contact issues that I alluded to earlier.

Whether the circuit solves the original problem David had remains to be seen.

David, I save my photos to imgur.com to post them on the forum. I find the service well suited for the job. Probably other similar services would apply equally well.
- Martti M.
Era III analog & digital (Rocrail, CAN Digital Bahn, Gleisbox/MS2, K83/K84), C & M tracks, some Spur 1
Offline David240945  
#16 Posted : 18 February 2021 21:42:20(UTC)
David240945


Joined: 10/01/2020(UTC)
Posts: 34
Location: England, Swindon
Dear Martii, thanks for your thoughts!

1 it would be great if you could do some test circuits and let me know how you get on.

2. On your point of wrong connection - I have wired it as per the diagram in the left socket opposite the manual change lever. I will switch them over and see if it make a difference!

Incidentally the way I have followed the diagram is to take the lead from C to C2 and also from C’ to C2 and joined them both in the C2 socket ..and so on with the other blocks. I assume that is what they want!

3. I would like to test the remote switches to see if the solenoids function- etc. Can you advise how to do this? Using the manual levers does nothing?!

4. Well spotted on the mistake in Fig 38 A’ and a1 v a2. I did not however duplicate that on my circuit.

One other thought. I have taken the yellow leads to lighting trafos not to the trafo taking current to the track? Would this make a difference?

Best Regards

David


Offline David240945  
#17 Posted : 18 February 2021 21:59:01(UTC)
David240945


Joined: 10/01/2020(UTC)
Posts: 34
Location: England, Swindon
Maarti just seen your test circuit after my last post.

Well done ! One difference is you seem to have two cable going to the remote green socket - one from signal in foreground? Where does the other one come from ?

Otherwise I think you do take a red to contact 2 direct from signal and the other from the remote is that correct?

Not sure how to save pics to imgur.com, they are on my iPad. Will have a look

D
Offline Martti Mäntylä  
#18 Posted : 18 February 2021 22:49:18(UTC)
Martti Mäntylä

Finland   
Joined: 15/11/2018(UTC)
Posts: 238
Location: Uusimaa, Helsinki
Originally Posted by: David240945 Go to Quoted Post
One difference is you seem to have two cable going to the remote green socket - one from signal in foreground? Where does the other one come from ?

One cable goes to the previous signal, and the other to the previous remote control. E.g, the green socket of A' is connected to both signal C and remote control C'. This allows a1 to turn both C and C' to green (on the condition that A is green).
Originally Posted by: David240945 Go to Quoted Post

Otherwise I think you do take a red to contact 2 direct from signal and the other from the remote is that correct?

Yes. With this, c2 can turn C and C' to red again, for instance.

The brief experience of building the test circuit suggests that the main difficulty is to get the circuit tracks to operate properly. My circuit tracks have been unused for a long time, and they needed some attention before they started to work. The V200 shown in the video did not always manage to engage with the switch in the circuit tracks solidly enough to make a good contact.

Like I mentioned, one of the signals failed intermittently to provide power to the stop tracks due to poor contact. This is fairly common and can be fixed by cleaning and adjusting the contact surfaces. Of course, also the remote controls can have this problem.

I test the contact surfaces by hooking the 7045's to a 7074 lamp to see if I can turn it on and off by engaging the manual switch. You could equally well hook the 7045 to the red plug of a 5103 feeder track, place a passenger car with interior lights on the track, and flip the manual switch. Of course, signal contacts can be tested the same way.
- Martti M.
Era III analog & digital (Rocrail, CAN Digital Bahn, Gleisbox/MS2, K83/K84), C & M tracks, some Spur 1
Offline David240945  
#19 Posted : 19 February 2021 15:18:03(UTC)
David240945


Joined: 10/01/2020(UTC)
Posts: 34
Location: England, Swindon
Thanks Maatti, I don’t think my problem is with the contact/circuit tracks as they were working fine when I had the simple block system! It is only when I interpose the 7045 I cant get the green circuits to work.

I notice that in your circuit the back Signal was facing the other way so you had not set it up for block running. But no matter as you did get the 7045s changing the signals ok.

I am going now to do simple test track to try and get it right and hope I can find enough signals and contact rails without dismantling too much of the main layout! I’ll let you know how that goes.

As to resting the 7045 - please could you tell me Exactly how to connect to the feeder track - do I need to connect the yellow on 7045 to a trafo? Then which wire of the 7045 to the feeder track? Or do I plug the Red of the feeder to the socket at end of 7045 . Presumably the brown of the feeder would need to go to trafo earth. Sorry to be a bit dense!

Off to the shed to experiment!

D
Offline Martti Mäntylä  
#20 Posted : 19 February 2021 16:51:56(UTC)
Martti Mäntylä

Finland   
Joined: 15/11/2018(UTC)
Posts: 238
Location: Uusimaa, Helsinki
Originally Posted by: David240945 Go to Quoted Post
As to resting the 7045 - please could you tell me Exactly how to connect to the feeder track - do I need to connect the yellow on 7045 to a trafo? Then which wire of the 7045 to the feeder track? Or do I plug the Red of the feeder to the socket at end of 7045 . Presumably the brown of the feeder would need to go to trafo earth.

Sure:
- Connect the brown of the feeder track to the brown of the trafo, the red to the green output socket of the 7045.
- Connect the red cable of 7045 to the trafo.
- Place a car with interior lights on the feeder track.
- Apply some voltage with the trafo.
- Now you should be able to switch the interior lights on and off by moving the small hand lever of the 7045. While at it, switch the red cable of the feeder track to the red output of 7045 and test it too.
- If you want to test the solenoid as well, connect the yellow cable of 7045 to the trafo. Also connect the ground socket of the 7045 (on the opposite side of the green and red outputs) to the brown of the trafo with a short cable.
- Now you can engage the solenoid by touching the rails with the plugs of the two blue cables. Or, if you prefer, use a 7072 switchbox to control the solenoid.
- Martti M.
Era III analog & digital (Rocrail, CAN Digital Bahn, Gleisbox/MS2, K83/K84), C & M tracks, some Spur 1
Offline David240945  
#21 Posted : 19 February 2021 21:49:27(UTC)
David240945


Joined: 10/01/2020(UTC)
Posts: 34
Location: England, Swindon
Great looks very clear will hav3 a go tomorrow!

Thanks

D
Offline David240945  
#22 Posted : 20 February 2021 19:24:33(UTC)
David240945


Joined: 10/01/2020(UTC)
Posts: 34
Location: England, Swindon
Martti,

Quite a sucessful day , tested four 7045 as you suggested and working ok so buil test track with three blocks. The relays are workin but unfortunately I am having to use old signals from my spares box and they are sticky and not always changing as required. I hope to get some new Signal sons , but I learnt enough today for me to now dismantle my main layout blocks, test the relays and rebuild checking all wiring.

So many thanks, will let you know when it’s working!

Best Regards

David
Offline Martti Mäntylä  
#23 Posted : 20 February 2021 21:58:38(UTC)
Martti Mäntylä

Finland   
Joined: 15/11/2018(UTC)
Posts: 238
Location: Uusimaa, Helsinki
Hi David,

Very good!

Do not despair with the sticky signals. Much of the time they can be re-invigorated just by cleaning the contact surfaces with isopropyl and/or adjusting them. I also use electronics cleaning fluid that can be used even to make the solenoids more responsive.
- Martti M.
Era III analog & digital (Rocrail, CAN Digital Bahn, Gleisbox/MS2, K83/K84), C & M tracks, some Spur 1
Offline David240945  
#24 Posted : 24 February 2021 21:56:34(UTC)
David240945


Joined: 10/01/2020(UTC)
Posts: 34
Location: England, Swindon
Martti, SUCESS , having proved the system with the test track and got that working well, with a few changes of signals and sticky slider contacts, I redid the inner circuit of my main layout and rewired and tested signals, relays and contact rails. Some relays were grubby. Today I got it working well and three trains now run well on a four block circuit. The blocks are of varying lengths and the trains different speeds and loads and the blocks with the remote relays are managing them well. So a great step forward!

BUT - I found some locos a bit sticky, so went to give them a run in on the three block test circuit, which had been working perfectly the day before.... only to find some of the circuits were not working. The layout copied the one in the manual and contact a2 was not releasing Signal A to go and contact c2 was not releasing Signal C to go.

I switch over the green plugs on relay A’ and B’ and that seems to have solved the problem. But I can’t understand why the normal wiring has failed or why switch over the plugs worked ! ?

In the process I have noticed that when the contacts trigger relay signals A’ and B’ the solenoid operates and the manual lever moves. But it does not on relay C’, although Signal C works. I notice also, on my properly functioning main layout, none of the solenoids/manual levers move when triggered by the contact rails but the signals change OK.

Have you any thoughts on this?

My next step is to dismantle the test track as I need the relays to get the outer circuit of the main layout working. In the process I will test them again and give them another clean.

Best Regards

D


Offline Martti Mäntylä  
#25 Posted : 25 February 2021 02:08:18(UTC)
Martti Mäntylä

Finland   
Joined: 15/11/2018(UTC)
Posts: 238
Location: Uusimaa, Helsinki
Originally Posted by: David240945 Go to Quoted Post
BUT - I found some locos a bit sticky, so went to give them a run in on the three block test circuit, which had been working perfectly the day before.... only to find some of the circuits were not working. The layout copied the one in the manual and contact a2 was not releasing Signal A to go and contact c2 was not releasing Signal C to go.

I switch over the green plugs on relay A’ and B’ and that seems to have solved the problem. But I can’t understand why the normal wiring has failed or why switch over the plugs worked ! ?

In the process I have noticed that when the contacts trigger relay signals A’ and B’ the solenoid operates and the manual lever moves. But it does not on relay C’, although Signal C works. I notice also, on my properly functioning main layout, none of the solenoids/manual levers move when triggered by the contact rails but the signals change OK.

Nice to hear that you are making progress. Nevertheless, the cited description above gives me a bit uneasy feeling.

The contacts a2, b2 and c2 are intended to turn the signals A, B, and C as well as the relays A', B' and C' to red = stop, respectively. The task of turning the signals and relays to green = go belongs to the contacts a1 (for C and C'), b1 (A and A') and c1 (B and B'). This was nicely explained above by Jean in post #12 of this topic.

If the signals operate as intended, but the solenoids of the relays stay still, the circuit is not working as intended. The relays are permanently on green or on red; in latter case, the related signals will turn to green if their green plug is inserted to the red output of the relay.

Please check again the wiring. Make sure that the green outputs of the relays are connected both to the green controls of the previous signal and the previous relay.
- Martti M.
Era III analog & digital (Rocrail, CAN Digital Bahn, Gleisbox/MS2, K83/K84), C & M tracks, some Spur 1
Offline David240945  
#26 Posted : 02 March 2021 21:18:33(UTC)
David240945


Joined: 10/01/2020(UTC)
Posts: 34
Location: England, Swindon
Martti,

Thanks for your last post, I double checked all the wiring and it was ok, but I still had problems. Eventually they seem to be a combination of sticky solenoid and sticky camshafts on the 5146 type remote control contact rails. I have now dismantled the test track as it has served it’s purpose and taught me a lot, thanks to you.

I have to say I find that the Slider type contact rails are very unreliable, more than 50 % of mine are unusable and they have hardly been used. I prefer the old contact rails despite the risk of burn out if a train is sitting on them. Unfortunately with outer radius tracks one has no choice

I have had success though in getting the inner circuit of my main analog layout working well with a three train four block system. I have noticed however that if, the trains and blocks get out of sync, which can happen with a sticky contact rail or a derailment etc, that it takes a few circuits for the system to get working properly again. The key is reliable remotes, signals and contact rails.

I am now working on getting the unreliable 7045 and signals cleaned up. Some had quite oily contact plates

- Do you bathe the whole item in isopropanol ?

- Do you have any advice on removing the solenoid - it seems possible if one bends the metal stop that sticks up from the base plate, but I am reluctant to do this if there is no point.

- any thoughts on how to get slider contact functioning better, I have tried dismantling them and oiling the cams at the base end , bending contacts slightly etc.... with no good result!

I now have to turn my attention to getting the other circuit working. Unfortunately it has a short somewhere which will take some work to eliminate as the wiring is complicated and parts rather inaccessable but that’s another story!

My best wishes

David
Users browsing this topic
OceanSpiders 2.0
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

| Powered by YAF.NET | YAF.NET © 2003-2021, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 1.192 seconds.