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Offline robfl  
#1 Posted : 03 January 2021 18:38:46(UTC)
robfl

United Kingdom   
Joined: 11/10/2020(UTC)
Posts: 13
Location: England, Warwickshire
I have finished laying my track, which will need three controllers and I only have one, they are rather expensive, so I have been looking at alternatives. I found this one by Budget Model Railways:
video of controller being made

I wondered if anyone had tried one on Z gauge and is it a good idea. The input voltage is 12v, would this be a problem, as although 10v is mentioned for Marklin trains, my Marklin controller outputs between 10 and 16 volts measured across the tracks.

Any thoughts???

Rob Confused
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by robfl
Offline uhrwerk  
#2 Posted : 03 January 2021 19:50:01(UTC)
uhrwerk

United States   
Joined: 03/01/2021(UTC)
Posts: 6
Location: Colorado, Longmont
Hi Rob,

No reason not to make your own. Did you measure the track voltage with or without a train running? You could always mark on the throttle where 10V is and not turn the knob past that point.

When I was a kid, my dad made a very fancy throttle for his HO layout with momentum and braking, and meters and lights. I wish I still had it, it was really fun.

Offline Poor Skeleton  
#3 Posted : 03 January 2021 22:26:13(UTC)
Poor Skeleton

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/10/2015(UTC)
Posts: 550
Location: England, Cambridge
Originally Posted by: robfl Go to Quoted Post
I have finished laying my track, which will need three controllers and I only have one, they are rather expensive, so I have been looking at alternatives. I found this one by Budget Model Railways:
video of controller being made

I wondered if anyone had tried one on Z gauge and is it a good idea. The input voltage is 12v, would this be a problem, as although 10v is mentioned for Marklin trains, my Marklin controller outputs between 10 and 16 volts measured across the tracks.

Any thoughts???

Rob Confused


I have done quite a bit of experimentation into controllers and whilst I'm by no means an expert, I do have some useful experience.

The controller featured in the video is a PWM type. This will give good slow running performance, but could result in high operating temperature of the motor, even more so if it's a modern coreless (bell shaped armature) type. I wouldn't recommend using this with a power supply of more than 9V, but with a 9V supply performance should be pretty good and the risk to your motors pretty low.

It's quite simple to make a DC controller for a similar amount of money if you're competent with a soldering iron and this would be 100% safe, even if your power supply was of excessive voltage, but slow speed performance would not be as good. I've used this type of design for my own layout and I'm happy with the result - for me, I'm happy to trade poorer slow speed running for the certainty the motors aren't being stressed.

There was some discussion on this subject a while ago, which included some information on an inexpensive PWM controller I'd found - hopefully this link will take you there : https://www.marklin-user...Rokuhan--Pwm-Controllers

Hope this is of help


Chris
Offline robfl  
#4 Posted : 04 January 2021 21:24:03(UTC)
robfl

United Kingdom   
Joined: 11/10/2020(UTC)
Posts: 13
Location: England, Warwickshire
Hi Uhrwerk,

I measured the voltage with the train running and without it running. But could only obtain a stable reading without it running.

Rob.
Offline robfl  
#5 Posted : 05 January 2021 16:40:47(UTC)
robfl

United Kingdom   
Joined: 11/10/2020(UTC)
Posts: 13
Location: England, Warwickshire
Hi Chris,

Thanks for the detailed reply. I think soldering my own DC controller is a bit beyond my abilities, I couldn't solder very well years ago and my eye sight isn't improving with age, lol.
I think I will try the PWM controller and make sure I use a 9 volt supply and keep an eye on my trains temperature, I will let you know how I get on.

Cheers Rob BigGrin
Offline robfl  
#6 Posted : 12 January 2021 22:23:26(UTC)
robfl

United Kingdom   
Joined: 11/10/2020(UTC)
Posts: 13
Location: England, Warwickshire
Hi all,
I have followed the video for the controller and it has worked. As suggested by Chris, I used 9v on an adjustable transformer, the PWM controller is the one used in the video.
Performance is better than my Marklin controller, especially at slow speeds. To start the train moving the controller needs to be turned quite far and then backed off.
The only slight downside (to me), is that to reverse you have to throw a switch, whereas I prefer just twisting the dial backwards. But this controller is so much cheaper that I can live with that.
I haven't noticed any overheating on the motors, which are 3 pole. It will run two trains with no problems.
Rob BigGrin
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Offline parakiet  
#7 Posted : 24 January 2021 18:59:19(UTC)
parakiet

Belgium   
Joined: 20/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 280
Location: Flanders!
What video? Link?
Offline robfl  
#8 Posted : 24 January 2021 20:58:06(UTC)
robfl

United Kingdom   
Joined: 11/10/2020(UTC)
Posts: 13
Location: England, Warwickshire
Hi Parakiet,

The video link was in the first post, here it is again. Video
Links to the parts used is in the comments under the video, note that you will need a 9 volt transformer.

Rob
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by robfl
Offline parakiet  
#9 Posted : 25 January 2021 11:14:37(UTC)
parakiet

Belgium   
Joined: 20/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 280
Location: Flanders!
Originally Posted by: robfl Go to Quoted Post
Hi Parakiet,

The video link was in the first post, here it is again. Video
Links to the parts used is in the comments under the video, note that you will need a 9 volt transformer.

Rob


AAAAAAh, I was skimming both threads to find the link to the part, didn't read that it was on the comments section of the youtube vid.
Anyway I bookmarked it.

I am designing a non DCC lay-out with multiple continuous lines and a few shunt places. Those affordable controllers opened up a whole set of possibilities!
Offline kiwiAlan  
#10 Posted : 25 January 2021 15:30:58(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Just watched the video and looked at the items on Amazon - it's not going to be as cheap as stated. The Wall Wart and controller are £12.5 as a pair on Amazon plus a bit for their 3D printed box.

Also I could find no information on the PWM frequency, so be very careful if your locos have coreless motors in them. if the PWM frequency is too low then it is possible to shake the windings apart. This is why digital decoders often have multiple control frequencies available.

Why have multiple frequencies available? As explained above coreless motors need a high frequency, but older style motors with soft iron cores will get quite hot if run for extended periods of time with such high frequency drive due to induced losses in the motor. These motors need a lower frequency drive to prevent this overheating.

Offline robfl  
#11 Posted : 25 January 2021 22:18:45(UTC)
robfl

United Kingdom   
Joined: 11/10/2020(UTC)
Posts: 13
Location: England, Warwickshire
Hi KiwiAlan,
The video was posted several years ago and the prices have gone up since then and the box is expensive (I made my own) but it's still much cheaper than a Marklin controller.
I haven't noticed any overheating problems, after running my trains for about half an hour. They are old DC trains. You mention digital decoders, which I think is DCC trains. I believe these controllers are only for DC trains.
Rob Smile
Offline kiwiAlan  
#12 Posted : 26 January 2021 00:13:40(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: robfl Go to Quoted Post
Hi KiwiAlan,
The video was posted several years ago and the prices have gone up since then and the box is expensive (I made my own) but it's still much cheaper than a Marklin controller.
I haven't noticed any overheating problems, after running my trains for about half an hour. They are old DC trains. You mention digital decoders, which I think is DCC trains. I believe these controllers are only for DC trains.
Rob Smile


OK, I didn't look at the date of the video, so that explains the prices.

My comments about digital operation are not about the decoders, but rather the options they have to deal with different motors.

I know Marklin are using can type motors in Z gauge items, but don't have any details if these are coreless type motors. I am just giving a warning that if you use this controller on a coreless motor you run a risk of destroying the windings.
Offline parakiet  
#13 Posted : 26 January 2021 08:19:28(UTC)
parakiet

Belgium   
Joined: 20/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 280
Location: Flanders!
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Just watched the video and looked at the items on Amazon - it's not going to be as cheap as stated. The Wall Wart and controller are £12.5 as a pair on Amazon plus a bit for their 3D printed box.

Also I could find no information on the PWM frequency, so be very careful if your locos have coreless motors in them. if the PWM frequency is too low then it is possible to shake the windings apart. This is why digital decoders often have multiple control frequencies available.

Why have multiple frequencies available? As explained above coreless motors need a high frequency, but older style motors with soft iron cores will get quite hot if run for extended periods of time with such high frequency drive due to induced losses in the motor. These motors need a lower frequency drive to prevent this overheating.



since they are sold to drive small fans they should be safe for the 3/5 pole motors.

they are 20-25 kHz so they should work on a brushless motor too.

you can limit your input V!
Offline kiwiAlan  
#14 Posted : 26 January 2021 14:09:09(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: parakiet Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Just watched the video and looked at the items on Amazon - it's not going to be as cheap as stated. The Wall Wart and controller are £12.5 as a pair on Amazon plus a bit for their 3D printed box.

Also I could find no information on the PWM frequency, so be very careful if your locos have coreless motors in them. if the PWM frequency is too low then it is possible to shake the windings apart. This is why digital decoders often have multiple control frequencies available.

Why have multiple frequencies available? As explained above coreless motors need a high frequency, but older style motors with soft iron cores will get quite hot if run for extended periods of time with such high frequency drive due to induced losses in the motor. These motors need a lower frequency drive to prevent this overheating.



since they are sold to drive small fans they should be safe for the 3/5 pole motors.

they are 20-25 kHz so they should work on a brushless motor too.

you can limit your input V!


OK, at that frequency I agree they should be fine for coreless motors.
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