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Offline Nate  
#1 Posted : 02 December 2020 11:48:40(UTC)
Nate

United States   
Joined: 02/12/2020(UTC)
Posts: 5
Location: California, Mountain View
I recently bought a vintage factory display layout off a friend, who in turn bought the layout off of a baker. Most of their other equipment is from the 60s and 70s, so I assume the layout is about the same age.

I have a few questions:
1) Is this a standard layout, or are things like this custom built?
2) If it's standard, how can I identify it / look up more information about layouts like it?
3) I'm new to collecting; is it a bad idea for me to modify the layout? I wanted to replace and clean up the wiring, electrify the switches, make any necessary changes for digitization, and add a new connection between the inner and outer loops.

Adding an extra link between the loops would be pretty invasive; the loops aren't conveniently spaced for inserting M-track switches. It would be far easier to replace all of the track on the layout with K flex track, but that feels really wrong.

I took these pictures after temporarily disassembling some of the track; the pieces are laid in their original positions.

PXL_20201202_100733434.jpgPXL_20201202_100843136.jpg

Thanks!
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Online analogmike  
#2 Posted : 02 December 2020 12:51:50(UTC)
analogmike

United States   
Joined: 02/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 737
Location: NEW JERSEY, USA
Hi Nate,
My two cents:

1. Keep the M track (nostalgia).

2. Electrify the switches.

3. At the front of the layout replace the RH switch with a double slip crossover and put the RH switch to the outer loop (I think it will fit).

4. Go manual with the signals and get rid of the contact tracks (Reliability).

5. Add old style catenary on a separate traffo.

6. Don't digitize ($$$$).

Play, have fun, good luck.
Mikey
I love the smell of smoke fluid in the morning .
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#3 Posted : 02 December 2020 13:28:57(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Nate Go to Quoted Post
I recently bought a vintage factory display layout off a friend, who in turn bought the layout off of a baker. Most of their other equipment is from the 60s and 70s, so I assume the layout is about the same age.

I have a few questions:
1) Is this a standard layout, or are things like this custom built?
2) If it's standard, how can I identify it / look up more information about layouts like it?
3) I'm new to collecting; is it a bad idea for me to modify the layout? I wanted to replace and clean up the wiring, electrify the switches, make any necessary changes for digitization, and add a new connection between the inner and outer loops.
...
Thanks!


To me that looks like it could be a layout base from Noch, but a layout of that age I doubt there is any information around about them now - but you never know, someone may recognise it.

Personally I would keep it as is without modification to the track plan, as a layout that is easily taken out to exhibitions and the like. Contact the ETE, there is a pretty active group in Mountain View IIRC, with a number of members on here who will be only too happy to talk with you, and i am sure will be happy to have another layout available for their exhibitions, no matter how small it is, and it is always nice to have an older nostalgic layout like this, especially if it is set up to run multiple trains with the automated signalling system of the day so there is minimal operator operation required.

If you are after a larger layout then I would build something else that suits the space you have available. Then you can use the track system you desire with whatever layout features you want.
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Offline Jimmy Thompson  
#4 Posted : 02 December 2020 13:58:37(UTC)
Jimmy Thompson

United States   
Joined: 26/03/2019(UTC)
Posts: 587
Location: Florida Classic but Successful Swampland City
Nate,

I concur with the previous thoughts.

M-track.
Add the double slip.

Here is a reference, go to page 16 "Noch Bergzell" Layout (although the previous owner made a few little alterations, it seems pretty close...) Thanks Alan for the clue to Noch!!

https://www.conradantiquario.de/...t/katalog/noch-1968.html

And Enjoy!!Love
Jimmy T
Analogue; M-track; BR 111; KLVM; Primex; Sarrasani Zirkuswelt
There is a Prototype For Everything
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Offline JohnjeanB  
#5 Posted : 02 December 2020 16:08:03(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,084
Location: Paris, France
Hi
Originally Posted by: Nate Go to Quoted Post
I have a few questions:
1) Is this a standard layout, or are things like this custom built?

This looks very much like a Noch (noch.de) finished landscape. My guess it is the model Bergzell (I found in the 1972 catalogue)
Here is a picture of it with K track
BergZell.jpg
That model is not anymore in the present catalogue. The houses & buildings are also standard

Originally Posted by: Nate Go to Quoted Post
2) If it's standard, how can I identify it / look up more information about layouts like it?

Thanks to Noch,de I was able to get a copy of the manual:

Bergzell Anweisung.pdf (699kb) downloaded 49 time(s).

On page 2 you have suggested layouts for M track K track and Fleischmann and Trix tracks


Originally Posted by: Nate Go to Quoted Post
3) I'm new to collecting; is it a bad idea for me to modify the layout? I wanted to replace and clean up the wiring, electrify the switches, make any necessary changes for digitization, and add a new connection between the inner and outer loops.

The Noch Landscape are pretty flexible for you to add a double switch or more side lines
Have fun
Cheers
Jean



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Offline Nate  
#6 Posted : 03 December 2020 20:45:10(UTC)
Nate

United States   
Joined: 02/12/2020(UTC)
Posts: 5
Location: California, Mountain View
Thanks for the advice everyone!

I audited the layout and compared it to the ones Jimmy Thomson & JohnjeanB found. The track used by my layout is pretty different, but they might be reconcilable if I decided I wanted to mix them.

I noticed that the example layout uses a 5117 switch. Aside from the larger lantern, is it the same as 5202, or an electric 5122? I haven't been able to find any info on either 5117 or 5122.

The image below is my audit, the PDF in JohnjeanB's post lists all of the parts in the other layout on the second page. I have a few 5202s and the my layout has three 5122s.

PXL_20201203_193222806.jpg
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Offline JohnjeanB  
#7 Posted : 03 December 2020 21:01:08(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,084
Location: Paris, France
Hi Nate

5202 Switches are R2 and 24.5° while 5117 are R1 and 30° angle.
You may either use your 5202 in combination with 5206 to have 30° or 5117 as you wish.
Enjoy your layout
Jean

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Offline cookee_nz  
#8 Posted : 04 December 2020 02:00:24(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,948
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Kibri also make preformed layouts in similar style.

My first thought also was Noch but can't find that particular one in any of the layout catalogs I have checked.
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
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Offline JohnjeanB  
#9 Posted : 04 December 2020 12:31:25(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,084
Location: Paris, France
Hi
The old Noch catalogues can be found here:https://www.conradantiquario.de/...noch-katalogservice.html
There plenty of other catalogues. This Conrad-Antiquario Website is really great
Cheers
Jean
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Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#10 Posted : 04 December 2020 20:51:15(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,863
Location: CA, USA
Hi there, I don't think anyone clarified this, but I don't think it is a "factory" layout. However the answer to that likely lies in the wiring underneath the board, which isn't shown. Its a noch layout, which is actually what the factory often finished and sold to dealers.

The usual "cheat" is look at the wiring underneath. If it looks like surgeon with an telecomms engineering degree wired it, then that is the first step towards "factory". If it looks like a hobbyist drilled some holes etc, its an "off the shelf" noch kit
SBB Era 2-5
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Offline JohnjeanB  
#11 Posted : 04 December 2020 21:07:39(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,084
Location: Paris, France
Hi
I have seen quite a number of Kibri and Noch dioramas in the train shops in Germany.
I was not aware of Noch delivery completely finished layouts
To me the real production was from Marklin "Werksanlagen"
Here are a few





I don't know about you but they made me dream as a teenager
Cheers
Jean
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Offline cookee_nz  
#12 Posted : 05 December 2020 01:16:42(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,948
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Märklin built complete layouts as a service to the customers specifications. Those customers could be private individuals, or perhaps built for special purposes such as exhibitions, working displays etc.

They also produced Shop Window Display layouts for dealer (Schaufensteranlagen) which were listed in special separate sales catalogues for purchase by dealers and these generally have a label somewhere on it with the layout/catalogue number.

Normally these would be produced in larger quantities and several could be identical although I have seen examples of the same layout, same plan but with subtle differences.

A very few Noch pre-forms were also used by Märklin as dealer models but they were catalogued and therefore had a factory label.

It's a fascinating area of interest to some (including myself) and there are a core of collectors in Germany who actively search for and display them.

I have one factory layout myself, and we have two in the Wellington Märklin Model Railway Club, one of which has a 'twin' in Auckland so it would seem the agent of the day imported at least two of those.
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
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Offline seatrains  
#13 Posted : 05 December 2020 22:25:49(UTC)
seatrains

United States   
Joined: 22/11/2006(UTC)
Posts: 669
Location: Shoreline, WA
Awesome videos of the factory layouts! I have only seen two that I remember. One in the mid 60's at either Frederick & Nelson or the Bon Marche department stores in downtown Seattle when I was a kid. The other at a local train show in the 90's. The seller claimed it was from the Bon Marche hobby department and wanted $1000.00 US for a complete layout, with track, signals, buildings etc. Sadly, my kids were young and did not have the cash...BigGrin
Thom
European Train Enthusiast - Pacific Northwest Chapter
4th Division, Pacific Northwest Region, National Model Railroaders Association
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