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Offline Surge  
#1 Posted : 02 October 2020 16:45:35(UTC)
Surge

United States   
Joined: 21/08/2020(UTC)
Posts: 26
Location: NYC
I’ve begun evaluating a variety of roller / dyno test stands. I plan to have each of my ~20 locomotives on a test stand, in a built-in wall niche.

Let’s look at what’s available and how it compares. I’ll update this thread as I receive products from different brands.

Marklin
I think these were made by SMT. No longer offered.

SMT
Seem to be out of business.

KPF-Zeller
I ordered a few of these. They are disappointing. The main reason is that they don’t use real ball bearings. They use brass wheels, and they describe them as a pro, rather than a con, to real bearings. Unfortunately, the brass wheels squeak and squeal a TON. Even from new. KPF said they would include some grease with my order, but they didn’t.

Note the brass rollers below. It seems like a good idea, until you hear how they sound!
6861508F-0B54-4AC8-AB87-08EB49E22AE1.jpeg

Speaking of which, the entire experience was terrible. They were very nice at first, but they got my order completely wrong. Not only would they not apologize, they wouldn’t take it back unless I paid for shipping! To top it off, certain members of their staff are extremely rude! A hobby is done for fun, vendors need to make it enjoyable, or we should buy somewhere else.

Railstand
This seems to be the “Mercedes” of rail stands, and is priced appropriately. I will be placing an order soon and will report my findings.
By far it’s the most realistic, since the locomotive sits on a real track, and the bearings are recessed and hidden from view (compared to the other offerings). And they use real bearings, so it should not suffer the squealing issues that KPF products do.
CE554397-02A2-4036-B239-740786503FE7.jpeg

Weloe
This seems like a good product, with real bearings. It’s reasonably priced too. It doesn’t look as good as the others though. Perhaps if the bearing blocks were anodized silver instead of black, it would look better.
1CE49125-8042-408F-9740-248DF033F8C7.jpeg

Findings so far:
Best choice for testing a locomotive: Weloe

Best choice for displaying and testing a locomotive: Railstand

And Marklin, please bring back your rail stands!
Gauge 1 locomotive collector
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by Surge
Offline mbarreto  
#2 Posted : 02 October 2020 16:50:47(UTC)
mbarreto

Portugal   
Joined: 18/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,257
There are more, like for example the Linton: https://www.linton.de/rollenpruefstand/
Probably they are noisy too, but that is just a guess.


Edit: when I posted i didn't notice this topic is for big scale. Linton doesn't seem to address it.

Edited by user 02 October 2020 20:33:40(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Best regards,
Miguel
Mostly Märklin H0.


thanks 1 user liked this useful post by mbarreto
Offline Webmaster  
#3 Posted : 02 October 2020 20:13:57(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,161
I have an SMT with 10 "cradles" and it has worked well. Bought in the earlier 2000's.

Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by Webmaster
Offline Surge  
#4 Posted : 02 October 2020 20:19:36(UTC)
Surge

United States   
Joined: 21/08/2020(UTC)
Posts: 26
Location: NYC
Nice. I think SMT made the best roller track when you take into account aesthetics, performance, and price.
Too bad they don’t make them anymore.
Gauge 1 locomotive collector
Offline DaleSchultz  
#5 Posted : 02 October 2020 20:43:20(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
I inherited an SMT test bench.

The design in which the runners on the two sides are adjusted independently is the most stupid thing I have seen in a long time. It makes no sense at all.

To place a loco with (say) 7 axles means you have to adjust 14 runners instead of 7. It is very difficult to get them perfectly set at the same distance.

I would ignore all design that suffer from this flaw in your selection.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
thanks 5 users liked this useful post by DaleSchultz
Offline kiwiAlan  
#6 Posted : 03 October 2020 16:17:01(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Surge Go to Quoted Post

Marklin
I think these were made by SMT. No longer offered.

SMT
Seem to be out of business.


Marklin bought up SMT, and then offered the SMT items under the Marklin brand.
Offline nygma  
#7 Posted : 07 October 2020 21:17:35(UTC)
nygma

Hungary   
Joined: 15/04/2015(UTC)
Posts: 64
Location: Budapest, Budapest
I have this and got it from Exclusive Models in Netherlands: http://exclusivemodels.n...iversen/accessoires.html

Roller Stand

I think this is primarily for live steam engines, but the rails are electrically separated and even comes wired in. Still I feel the aluminium on aluminium connection is not ideal. You need to screw down the adjustable rollers, otherwise it does not conduct power properly.
Offline Surge  
#8 Posted : 08 October 2020 00:08:37(UTC)
Surge

United States   
Joined: 21/08/2020(UTC)
Posts: 26
Location: NYC
Another issue with the KPF-Zeller, which I just discovered, is that it's quite easy for a powerful locomotive to move itself off the rollers inadvertently. This could possibly damage the details like the sand pipes.
Even at the slowest speed, my Marklin SNCF 241-A will move itself off the rollers unless I'm holding it.
I think this is caused by the high coefficient of friction of the rollers -- again, because they are not ball bearings, they not only squeak, they also don't spin very easily. So that allows the locomotive to "push" itself off them!
Gauge 1 locomotive collector
Offline Purellum  
#9 Posted : 08 October 2020 00:32:44(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,498
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Luckily I bought some of the SMT / Märklin test stands some years ago, I find them very good. BigGrin
You can still be lucky to find them on Ebay; but they are not cheap...........

I have given up on the KPF-Zeller; I have also had locomotives drive off the test stand. Cursing
For purely testing purposes they can be OK, if you mount something to hold the locomotive in place.

I have only seen pictures and videos of the Railstand with the hidden bearings; but I don't like
the idea of the locomotives driving on the flanges, which I believe they must do. Crying

Please, if you test the Railstand, use a cheap old locomotive for the first tests...............Blink

Per.

Cool
If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

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Offline Webmaster  
#10 Posted : 08 October 2020 20:43:08(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,161
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
It is very difficult to get them perfectly set at the same distance.

Not really, some patience needed of course...
Set one side of rollers correctly, set the other side to approximately the same but don't fasten them, and then it's quite easy to adjust the "other side" by plain feel...

Worth the extra effort since the ball bearings roll nicely and you can speed up to top speed without having the loco escape from the stand...

Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
Offline DaleSchultz  
#11 Posted : 09 October 2020 00:17:47(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
yes, but the process you just described, I call "difficult" precisely because you have do jump through all those hoops. It is not hard to design it so that the opposite side is always at the exact same distance.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline Surge  
#12 Posted : 05 November 2020 02:25:43(UTC)
Surge

United States   
Joined: 21/08/2020(UTC)
Posts: 26
Location: NYC
Another issue I’m finding, at least with the KPF-Zeller tracks, is that they are not perfectly straight and aligned, and this causes pressure differences on the wheels. In turn, this causes the drive wheels to not turn at the same rpm, especially at slower <50% speeds.
Have others experienced this as well?

When 1 motor drives more than 1 axle, you can see that there are rpm differences in the axles driven by the same motor. I have even seen 1 axle momentarily stop completely at ~30% throttle! Moving the locomotive to a different point on the track solved it, at least for that axle.
I suppose Gauge 1 (at least?) locomotives employ some type of differential gearing to allow the wheels to turn at different speeds?
Gauge 1 locomotive collector
Offline Purellum  
#13 Posted : 06 November 2020 00:50:25(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,498
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: Surge Go to Quoted Post
When 1 motor drives more than 1 axle, you can see that there are rpm differences in the axles driven by the same motor. I have even seen 1 axle momentarily stop completely at ~30% throttle!


I can't see how this should be possible, unless there's something very wrong with the locomotive.

Originally Posted by: Surge Go to Quoted Post
I suppose Gauge 1 (at least?) locomotives employ some type of differential gearing to allow the wheels to turn at different speeds?


Having worked on many different Gauge 1 models; I've never seen anything like a differential gearing,
or even heard about it, in any locomotive; neither in models or in real prototypes.

Per.

Cool

If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

UserPostedImage
Offline Surge  
#14 Posted : 06 November 2020 01:09:07(UTC)
Surge

United States   
Joined: 21/08/2020(UTC)
Posts: 26
Location: NYC
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
Cool

Originally Posted by: Surge Go to Quoted Post
When 1 motor drives more than 1 axle, you can see that there are rpm differences in the axles driven by the same motor. I have even seen 1 axle momentarily stop completely at ~30% throttle!


I can't see how this should be possible, unless there's something very wrong with the locomotive.

Originally Posted by: Surge Go to Quoted Post
I suppose Gauge 1 (at least?) locomotives employ some type of differential gearing to allow the wheels to turn at different speeds?


Having worked on many different Gauge 1 models; I've never seen anything like a differential gearing,
or even heard about it, in any locomotive; neither in models or in real prototypes.

Per.

Cool



Right, well, all I can say is that the position of the loco on the roller track can affect the rpm of each axle, at times considerably. Just shifting the loco further left or right on the track can make a big difference. I think what can happen is the track flexes due to the weight of the loco. When it does that, it creates uneven pressure on each axle, so the weight of the loco is not evenly distributed on each roller.

I’m not sure what causes the axles to change speed as a result of this weight or pressure difference, if it’s not due to differential gearing. I suppose the decoder is adjusting the speed? I read that the Loksound ESU v4 will automatically correct for grades and other variations to achieve a more realistic speed (e.g., slower going up hill, faster going downhill, and in other ways.
The locomotive in question has 4 axles, each driven by its own motor. So does it make sense that the Loksound is adjusting the speed of each motor based on the resistance it’s encountering?
Gauge 1 locomotive collector
Offline Purellum  
#15 Posted : 06 November 2020 08:34:46(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,498
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: Surge Go to Quoted Post
The locomotive in question has 4 axles, each driven by its own motor.


Then it all makes sense, I thought it was one motor driving all axles Blushing

Per.

Cool

If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

UserPostedImage
Offline Surge  
#16 Posted : 06 November 2020 16:09:13(UTC)
Surge

United States   
Joined: 21/08/2020(UTC)
Posts: 26
Location: NYC
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
Cool

Originally Posted by: Surge Go to Quoted Post
The locomotive in question has 4 axles, each driven by its own motor.


Then it all makes sense, I thought it was one motor driving all axles Blushing

Per.

Cool



What do you think is causing the wheels to turn at different speeds? Is the Loksound ESU auto-adjusting the speeds based on friction of the wheels on the rollers?
Gauge 1 locomotive collector
Offline Purellum  
#17 Posted : 06 November 2020 16:44:45(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,498
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: Surge Go to Quoted Post
Is the Loksound ESU auto-adjusting the speeds based on friction of the wheels on the rollers?


If it was only one motor, the answer would be "YES" BigGrin

I assume that all 4 motors are driven from the same output on the ESU; which means that
the motor with the least friction will drive faster than the others.

The decoder can't adjust one motor different than the others, if all 4 motors are connected to the same decoder signal.


( ESU is using "back EMF" to sense the speed of the motor; but this will be an average of 4 motors in this case )

Per.

Cool





If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

UserPostedImage
Offline Surge  
#18 Posted : 06 November 2020 17:23:28(UTC)
Surge

United States   
Joined: 21/08/2020(UTC)
Posts: 26
Location: NYC
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
Cool

Originally Posted by: Surge Go to Quoted Post
Is the Loksound ESU auto-adjusting the speeds based on friction of the wheels on the rollers?


If it was only one motor, the answer would be "YES" BigGrin

I assume that all 4 motors are driven from the same output on the ESU; which means that
the motor with the least friction will drive faster than the others.

The decoder can't adjust one motor different than the others, if all 4 motors are connected to the same decoder signal.


( ESU is using "back EMF" to sense the speed of the motor; but this will be an average of 4 motors in this case )

Per.

Cool



Interesting, thanks. So when you say: "the motor with the least friction will drive faster than the others", I assume the converse is also true: 'the motor with the most friction will drive slower than the others'?

So they probably wired all 4 motors in series?

Thanks again!
Gauge 1 locomotive collector
Offline Purellum  
#19 Posted : 06 November 2020 22:05:46(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,498
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: Surge Go to Quoted Post
I assume the converse is also true: 'the motor with the most friction will drive slower than the others'?


Yes BigGrin

Originally Posted by: Surge Go to Quoted Post
So they probably wired all 4 motors in series?


Or in parallel; it depends which motors were used Cool

My guess would be ( 2 in series ) parallel with the other ( 2 in series ) Blink

That would give the same combined resistance for 1 motor as well as for 4 motors BigGrin

Per.

Cool




If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

UserPostedImage
Offline Surge  
#20 Posted : 07 November 2020 00:14:07(UTC)
Surge

United States   
Joined: 21/08/2020(UTC)
Posts: 26
Location: NYC
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
Cool

Originally Posted by: Surge Go to Quoted Post
I assume the converse is also true: 'the motor with the most friction will drive slower than the others'?


Yes BigGrin

Originally Posted by: Surge Go to Quoted Post
So they probably wired all 4 motors in series?


Or in parallel; it depends which motors were used Cool

My guess would be ( 2 in series ) parallel with the other ( 2 in series ) Blink

That would give the same combined resistance for 1 motor as well as for 4 motors BigGrin

Per.

Cool






Thank you again, very much!

Gauge 1 locomotive collector
Offline grnwtrs  
#21 Posted : 09 November 2020 01:53:48(UTC)
grnwtrs

United States   
Joined: 18/06/2005(UTC)
Posts: 669
Location: El Sobrante, California
Originally Posted by: Surge Go to Quoted Post
Another issue with the KPF-Zeller, which I just discovered, is that it's quite easy for a powerful locomotive to move itself off the rollers inadvertently. This could possibly damage the details like the sand pipes.
Even at the slowest speed, my Marklin SNCF 241-A will move itself off the rollers unless I'm holding it.
I think this is caused by the high coefficient of friction of the rollers -- again, because they are not ball bearings, they not only squeak, they also don't spin very easily. So that allows the locomotive to "push" itself off them!


I fully agree. But, I have learned to use 2 of the "rubber cross pieces" before and after the "roller bearings not", and to re-oil the roller bearings routinely. Your mileage may vary!!!

I am, like others, very cautious of running the big engines without monitoring their performance.

As far as cosmetics go, I think these "test tracks" look the best of all that are available. I have chosen the longest (
available for my I gauge marklin engines. I have two sets of the rails, and 40 plus rollers, and say 90 or so of the rubber stops. I frankly forgot the specific terminology of these parts. I am pleased with their overall performance.

I also bought some of the ho cars, etc from Zeller. I haven't been as adventurous as to try her pasta! Though.

Big daddy gave me the link to her website, and am very pleased to have been a small customer of hers. When I bought the delivery was very swift and well packaged . Things do change with all of our dealers in this hobby.

Thanks be to all, geneDrool


Offline Surge  
#22 Posted : 09 November 2020 02:53:06(UTC)
Surge

United States   
Joined: 21/08/2020(UTC)
Posts: 26
Location: NYC
Originally Posted by: grnwtrs Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Surge Go to Quoted Post
Another issue with the KPF-Zeller, which I just discovered, is that it's quite easy for a powerful locomotive to move itself off the rollers inadvertently. This could possibly damage the details like the sand pipes.
Even at the slowest speed, my Marklin SNCF 241-A will move itself off the rollers unless I'm holding it.
I think this is caused by the high coefficient of friction of the rollers -- again, because they are not ball bearings, they not only squeak, they also don't spin very easily. So that allows the locomotive to "push" itself off them!


I fully agree. But, I have learned to use 2 of the "rubber cross pieces" before and after the "roller bearings not", and to re-oil the roller bearings routinely. Your mileage may vary!!!

I am, like others, very cautious of running the big engines without monitoring their performance.

As far as cosmetics go, I think these "test tracks" look the best of all that are available. I have chosen the longest (
available for my I gauge marklin engines. I have two sets of the rails, and 40 plus rollers, and say 90 or so of the rubber stops. I frankly forgot the specific terminology of these parts. I am pleased with their overall performance.

I also bought some of the ho cars, etc from Zeller. I haven't been as adventurous as to try her pasta! Though.

Big daddy gave me the link to her website, and am very pleased to have been a small customer of hers. When I bought the delivery was very swift and well packaged . Things do change with all of our dealers in this hobby.

Thanks be to all, geneDrool




My experience with KPF-Zeller was horrible. I would not recommend working with them. Matthias was initially very nice and helpful. However, when my order shipped it was completely wrong. And I mean nothing was correct.
Instead of apologizing, the woman I dealt with tried to claim it was my fault. Clearly she didn’t speak to Matthias. Anyway, he reluctantly acknowledged the mistake but wanted me to pay for return shipping, which would cost hundreds of dollars.
Sorry for the rant, but they were by far the worst vendor I have dealt with in this hobby, and maybe ever.
Not sure if I dealt with the woman who makes pasta, but I’m guessing it was the same one. She has the absolute worst professional courtesy I have ever encountered. If she puts this disdain for humans into her food, I’ll pass.
I urge you all to steer well clear. Their roller tracks are subpar anyway.
Gauge 1 locomotive collector
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