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Offline Joe Meiring  
#1 Posted : 26 June 2020 14:39:36(UTC)
Joe Meiring

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 93
Location: Fish Hoek, Cape Town
Ive had my 39302 diesel ML 2200 since 2011. Such a lovely looking loco!
It runs fine, altho ive found that the track and pukos really needs to be scrupulously clean! The only hassle I'm having is when she runs very slowly over my 3 way turnouts (I have 2 of these) there's a loss of contact...I've looked carefully under the loco and it looks as if the front of the slider is touching the side of the rail??....I've been told to fit a shorter slider?!?!..is this possible?Confused .... if I run at a fair speed it just momentarily hesitates but does carry on thru the turnout.....
Stay safe out there folks Sad
Joe M from a cold wet wintry Cape Town
Medium digital C track layout with MS2: When I grow up I want to be a steam engine driver....
Offline David Dewar  
#2 Posted : 26 June 2020 16:11:19(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 6,929
Location: Scotland
Hi Joe. Make sure the slider is fitted properly to the loco and that there is not too much sideways movement. If it is only when going in one direction over the three way turnout then check that the movement does not have any small bit of grit stuck there.
I expect you have probably done the above but if not worth trying before changing the slider.

Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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Offline IanC  
#3 Posted : 26 June 2020 17:26:14(UTC)
IanC

United Kingdom   
Joined: 05/03/2016(UTC)
Posts: 159
Location: England, Bedford
Are you sure it's the slider? I had a coupling at the front of a loco that clouted the raised centre studs / pukos in the middle of a turnout / points every time travelling in one direction when leading. It looked like an electrical hesitation but it was mechanical.

IanC
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Offline H0  
#4 Posted : 26 June 2020 17:28:51(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,752
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Joe Meiring Go to Quoted Post
I've looked carefully under the loco and it looks as if the front of the slider is touching the side of the rail??
C track?
If the slider touches a powered rail there will be a short circuit and the controller will eventually go on STOP.
With C track the rail near the frog are not powered an no short circuit will occur. So the slider touching the rails should not normally be a problem - unless the slider is bent out of shape and loses contact to the centre-rail studs in the event.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Joe Meiring  
#5 Posted : 26 June 2020 18:58:02(UTC)
Joe Meiring

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 93
Location: Fish Hoek, Cape Town
Originally Posted by: David Dewar Go to Quoted Post
Hi Joe. Make sure the slider is fitted properly to the loco and that there is not too much sideways movement. If it is only when going in one direction over the three way turnout then check that the movement does not have any small bit of grit stuck there.
I expect you have probably done the above but if not worth trying before changing the slider.


Thanks David....slider firmly in place. It has 4 locating lugs so no sideways movement. No grit or dirt that i can see....

Medium digital C track layout with MS2: When I grow up I want to be a steam engine driver....
Offline Joe Meiring  
#6 Posted : 26 June 2020 19:02:30(UTC)
Joe Meiring

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 93
Location: Fish Hoek, Cape Town
Originally Posted by: IanC Go to Quoted Post
Are you sure it's the slider? I had a coupling at the front of a loco that clouted the raised centre studs / pukos in the middle of a turnout / points every time travelling in one direction when leading. It looked like an electrical hesitation but it was mechanical.

IanC

Thanx Ian...I have removed the couplings...still the same....if the speed is very slow the motor cuts out, lights go off, a slight push and it starts up again....Confused
Medium digital C track layout with MS2: When I grow up I want to be a steam engine driver....
Offline Joe Meiring  
#7 Posted : 26 June 2020 19:14:47(UTC)
Joe Meiring

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 93
Location: Fish Hoek, Cape Town
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Joe Meiring Go to Quoted Post
I've looked carefully under the loco and it looks as if the front of the slider is touching the side of the rail??
C track?
If the slider touches a powered rail there will be a short circuit and the controller will eventually go on STOP.
With C track the rail near the frog are not powered an no short circuit will occur. So the slider touching the rails should not normally be a problem - unless the slider is bent out of shape and loses contact to the centre-rail studs in the event.


Thanx Tom....... the slider is not bent out of shape. It happens on both my 3 way points as it enters...but all of the other turnouts, curved or straight, are fine...Confused
A slight push forward and the lights and motor go back on again.
At higher speed settings there is enough momentum to carry the locothru the 3 way with only a slght flickering of the headlights....
Stay safe!
Joe

Medium digital C track layout with MS2: When I grow up I want to be a steam engine driver....
Offline kiwiAlan  
#8 Posted : 26 June 2020 20:13:31(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 5,158
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Joe Meiring Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: IanC Go to Quoted Post
Are you sure it's the slider? I had a coupling at the front of a loco that clouted the raised centre studs / pukos in the middle of a turnout / points every time travelling in one direction when leading. It looked like an electrical hesitation but it was mechanical.

IanC

Thanx Ian...I have removed the couplings...still the same....if the speed is very slow the motor cuts out, lights go off, a slight push and it starts up again....Confused


This suggests you don't get a short, but rather that the slider gets to a point where it is not touching any studs.

make sure the slider is dead flat along its length.

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Offline Joe Meiring  
#9 Posted : 26 June 2020 21:15:01(UTC)
Joe Meiring

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 93
Location: Fish Hoek, Cape Town
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Joe Meiring Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: IanC Go to Quoted Post
Are you sure it's the slider? I had a coupling at the front of a loco that clouted the raised centre studs / pukos in the middle of a turnout / points every time travelling in one direction when leading. It looked like an electrical hesitation but it was mechanical.

IanC

Thanx Ian...I have removed the couplings...still the same....if the speed is very slow the motor cuts out, lights go off, a slight push and it starts up again....Confused


This suggests you don't get a short, but rather that the slider gets to a point where it is not touching any studs.

make sure the slider is dead flat along its length.


Thanks! Will check tomorrow morn wifh a straight edge!...
Medium digital C track layout with MS2: When I grow up I want to be a steam engine driver....
Offline analogmike  
#10 Posted : 27 June 2020 19:56:47(UTC)
analogmike

United States   
Joined: 02/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 635
Location: NEW JERSEY, USA
Hi Joe,
It may be a lack of ground. With the power up, get the lok to stall. Take a jumper wire from any ground source; rail, trafo, etc. then touch the other end to a driver wheel on the lok. If the lok lights up, it's a dead ground spot on the 3-way switch.
Just a hunch. Let us know.
Mikey
I love the smell of smoke fluid in the morning .
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Offline Joe Meiring  
#11 Posted : 27 June 2020 21:00:47(UTC)
Joe Meiring

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 93
Location: Fish Hoek, Cape Town
Originally Posted by: analogmike Go to Quoted Post
Hi Joe,
It may be a lack of ground. With the power up, get the lok to stall. Take a jumper wire from any ground source; rail, trafo, etc. then touch the other end to a driver wheel on the lok. If the lok lights up, it's a dead ground spot on the 3-way switch.
Just a hunch. Let us know.
Mikey

Thanks! Will def do that tomorrow...ThumpUp
Medium digital C track layout with MS2: When I grow up I want to be a steam engine driver....
Offline dickinsonj  
#12 Posted : 28 June 2020 01:16:49(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,326
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post


make sure the slider is dead flat along its length.



That is excellent advice. ThumpUp I have found many new Märklin sliders to be bent up in the middle, which invariably causes turnout problems. I have also found that just a very slight adjustment to make them perfectly flat makes most of the problems go away!

I check my problem sliders for being flat, evenly suspended front to back and side to side and also for the proper mm drop below the wheels, and then most of the time the electrical gremlins go away. ThumpUp
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
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Offline Joe Meiring  
#13 Posted : 28 June 2020 15:10:12(UTC)
Joe Meiring

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 93
Location: Fish Hoek, Cape Town
Thanx everyone for all the advice.....slider dead straight ( checked with my 6 inch rule), and firmly in place. Tested with a jumper wire when the loco stops, as per Mikey, but nothing happens unless I touch the wheel wifh a fair amount of force, which moves the front of the loco sideways and then it powers up again.....the same happens on the other 3 way.....
I tested all my other 19 locos and they are ok except for my old 3309 BR 85 (converted to digital a number of years ago)....it reacts the same as the diesel loco....at slow speed it stops as it enters the 3 way...a slight push to the side and off it goes again.
solution? Run the diesel at a fair speed and it goes thru the 3 way with a slight hesitation....
Joe
Medium digital C track layout with MS2: When I grow up I want to be a steam engine driver....
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Offline applor  
#14 Posted : 29 June 2020 06:30:23(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,494
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
In my experience with K track the sliders don't need to be perfectly flat. The only problems I've had are with the older style sliders with the hole in the middle to access the screw.
The newer Marklin sliders have a bow shape to them and the Lilliput sliders have a flat middle and both ends are bent up at about 5 degrees or so.
Both work fine on my large K track layout of all switch types.
I also have the Glaskasten with a 7cm long slider and it has no problems with the long slider.

Joe what you can also do is with the jumper wire again connect one end to traction power and then (carefully) with the other end reach through the wheels and touch the slider.
If the slider contact is the problem it should then move.
I am assuming it will since you've use the same test for the wheels to earth and it made no difference.

Unfortunately I don't have a C track 3-way to look at but there will always be a contact point with a slider and the studs...
modelling 1954 Germany (era IIIa)
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Offline David Dewar  
#15 Posted : 29 June 2020 10:32:05(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 6,929
Location: Scotland
Can you try fitting another slider Joe.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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Offline Joe Meiring  
#16 Posted : 29 June 2020 11:22:33(UTC)
Joe Meiring

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 93
Location: Fish Hoek, Cape Town
Originally Posted by: David Dewar Go to Quoted Post
Can you try fitting another slider Joe.

The slider is unique to this loco as far as I am aware.....not common to any other loco? So I don't have a spare!
Tx David!
Medium digital C track layout with MS2: When I grow up I want to be a steam engine driver....
Offline David Dewar  
#17 Posted : 29 June 2020 13:10:40(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 6,929
Location: Scotland
Joe. The spare slider is part number 41 for the loco and you can remove the slider. I dont have the loco but it should be possible to fit another slider. If you can get one smaller (perhaps from another of your locos) just to try it and see if that works. IF it does then you can order another similar slider. AS your other locos appear in the main to go through the turnout OK then the slider looks like the problem. Its a nice loco so dont give up.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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Offline Joe Meiring  
#18 Posted : 29 June 2020 13:17:12(UTC)
Joe Meiring

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 93
Location: Fish Hoek, Cape Town
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
In my experience with K track the sliders don't need to be perfectly flat. The only problems I've had are with the older style sliders with the hole in the middle to access the screw.
The newer Marklin sliders have a bow shape to them and the Lilliput sliders have a flat middle and both ends are bent up at about 5 degrees or so.
Both work fine on my large K track layout of all switch types.
I also have the Glaskasten with a 7cm long slider and it has no problems with the long slider.

Joe what you can also do is with the jumper wire again connect one end to traction power and then (carefully) with the other end reach through the wheels and touch the slider.
If the slider contact is the problem it should then move.
I am assuming it will since you've use the same test for the wheels to earth and it made no difference.

Unfortunately I don't have a C track 3-way to look at but there will always be a contact point with a slider and the studs...

Right! Got to the spot where loco stops. Just as it enters the 3 way. I had connected a jumper wire to the slider beforehand. Touched one of the centre studs and loco lights up!! And off she goes. Same in reverse. Loco stops at the "dead spot", touch the centre stud an powers up...
Now....how do I go about rectifying this?!?!Confused
Thanks so much ....BigGrin
Medium digital C track layout with MS2: When I grow up I want to be a steam engine driver....
Offline Joe Meiring  
#19 Posted : 29 June 2020 13:39:04(UTC)
Joe Meiring

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 93
Location: Fish Hoek, Cape Town
Originally Posted by: David Dewar Go to Quoted Post
Joe. The spare slider is part number 41 for the loco and you can remove the slider. I dont have the loco but it should be possible to fit another slider. If you can get one smaller (perhaps from another of your locos) just to try it and see if that works. IF it does then you can order another similar slider. AS your other locos appear in the main to go through the turnout OK then the slider looks like the problem. Its a nice loco so dont give up.

Thanks for that David...I have the number E226495 for the replacement slider. It has 4 connecting lugs that hold the slider body in place? See my post to Eric a short while ago....
Never been very happy with my two 3 way points. I could of course redesign my shutting yards by replacing them with "normal" turnouts....I've had a few folk tell me that they love my layout design....but not the 3 ways....not realistic enoughBlink
I'll see if I can utilise a slider from one of my spare locos....thanks!ThumpUp

Medium digital C track layout with MS2: When I grow up I want to be a steam engine driver....
Offline David Dewar  
#20 Posted : 29 June 2020 14:36:42(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 6,929
Location: Scotland
I would keep the three way turnouts which save space. I do think trying other sliders could solve the problem.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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Offline applor  
#21 Posted : 29 June 2020 23:53:25(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,494
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Originally Posted by: Joe Meiring Go to Quoted Post

Now....how do I go about rectifying this?!?!Confused
Thanks so much ....BigGrin



Before you do that I would also do some checks on the 3-way. With a multimeter do all the pukos show voltage? Can you pinpoint exactly where the slider loses power and the culprit puko?
You might be able to just mechanically fix the issue.

Otherwise in your situation and without replacing your 3-way turnouts you have two choices:

1) as advised replaced the slider. You say only 2 of your locos have this problem, so should be rather easy.
You haven't posted pictures of the slider so I don't know what it looks like and its fitment but if its a screw in slider then the Brawa slider 2225 should fit fine and resolve the problem.

2) add additional contact at the dead spot. You can either add a puko by drilling a small hole and add a loop of thin copper wire bent over at the top and then underneath connect it to traction power.
Or you can use 0.2mm steel wire as a 'bridge' across 2 or more pukos, again connect to traction power underneath.
modelling 1954 Germany (era IIIa)
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Offline dominator  
#22 Posted : 30 June 2020 02:13:42(UTC)
dominator

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 854
Location: Kerikeri
Are the Puko's sticking up high enough near the rail. I guess yo know they should be slightly above. I have M track and have had to make adjustments on occasions to suit some locos, even though most work without a problem.

Dereck
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä
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Offline Joe Meiring  
#23 Posted : 30 June 2020 10:24:55(UTC)
Joe Meiring

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 93
Location: Fish Hoek, Cape Town
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Joe Meiring Go to Quoted Post

Now....how do I go about rectifying this?!?!Confused
Thanks so much ....BigGrin



Before you do that I would also do some checks on the 3-way. With a multimeter do all the pukos show voltage? Can you pinpoint exactly where the slider loses power and the culprit puko?
You might be able to just mechanically fix the issue.

Otherwise in your situation and without replacing your 3-way turnouts you have two choices:

1) as advised replaced the slider. You say only 2 of your locos have this problem, so should be rather easy.
You haven't posted pictures of the slider so I don't know what it looks like and its fitment but if its a screw in slider then the Brawa slider 2225 should fit fine and resolve the problem.

2) add additional contact at the dead spot. You can either add a puko by drilling a small hole and add a loop of thin copper wire bent over at the top and then underneath connect it to traction power.
Or you can use 0.2mm steel wire as a 'bridge' across 2 or more pukos, again connect to traction power underneath.

20200630_101651.jpg20200630_100711.jpg


Medium digital C track layout with MS2: When I grow up I want to be a steam engine driver....
Offline Joe Meiring  
#24 Posted : 30 June 2020 10:46:07(UTC)
Joe Meiring

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 93
Location: Fish Hoek, Cape Town
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Joe Meiring Go to Quoted Post

Now....how do I go about rectifying this?!?!Confused
Thanks so much ....BigGrin



Before you do that I would also do some checks on the 3-way. With a multimeter do all the pukos show voltage? Can you pinpoint exactly where the slider loses power and the culprit puko?
You might be able to just mechanically fix the issue.

Otherwise in your situation and without replacing your 3-way turnouts you have two choices:

1) as advised replaced the slider. You say only 2 of your locos have this problem, so should be rather easy.
You haven't posted pictures of the slider so I don't know what it looks like and its fitment but if its a screw in slider then the Brawa slider 2225 should fit fine and resolve the problem.

2) add additional contact at the dead spot. You can either add a puko by drilling a small hole and add a loop of thin copper wire bent over at the top and then underneath connect it to traction power.
Or you can use 0.2mm steel wire as a 'bridge' across 2 or more pukos, again connect to traction power underneath.

Thanks Eric. I've put up pics of the slider and the 3 way. My paper marker indicates where the loco stops. There is no screw in these sliders. Just little lugs that clip into place. It seems to me that the slider is missing the pukos at that position. At speed the momentum will carry it thru....
Going to try and add wire as a bridge....see if that helps....
Thanks, Joe

Medium digital C track layout with MS2: When I grow up I want to be a steam engine driver....
Offline Joe Meiring  
#25 Posted : 30 June 2020 13:28:06(UTC)
Joe Meiring

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 93
Location: Fish Hoek, Cape Town
I've placed a thin piece of card on the inside of the rail....this then pushes the loco slightly away from me to the inside and no more stopping. Obviously the pushing of the loco toward the inside of the 3 way allows better contact with the slider and puko
Must still test the other locos to see there is no interference with their running....before doing anything "permanent"
Will keep posting....Thanx everyone!
Joe M
Medium digital C track layout with MS2: When I grow up I want to be a steam engine driver....
Offline dickinsonj  
#26 Posted : 30 June 2020 14:04:34(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,326
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: Joe Meiring Go to Quoted Post
I've placed a thin piece of card on the inside of the rail....this then pushes the loco slightly away from me to the inside and no more stopping.
Joe M

That is interesting Joe, thanks for posting that.

I have some issues with my 3-way turnouts too, but they are mostly tracking errors and not electrical. I love the compact interchanges they provide but I don't like the appearance or the function of these turnouts very much.

Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
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Offline Joe Meiring  
#27 Posted : 30 June 2020 16:59:32(UTC)
Joe Meiring

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 93
Location: Fish Hoek, Cape Town
Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Joe Meiring Go to Quoted Post
I've placed a thin piece of card on the inside of the rail....this then pushes the loco slightly away from me to the inside and no more stopping.
Joe M

That is interesting Joe, thanks for posting that.

I have some issues with my 3-way turnouts too, but they are mostly tracking errors and not electrical. I love the compact interchanges they provide but I don't like the appearance or the function of these turnouts very much.


I agree Jim...not terribly realistic looking is it?! I only have 2 of these3 ways and both have issues. Besides the 2 locos I mentioned there are a few more locos that stall on the 3 ways if going slowly over them when I do shunting....also my v200...bit of a pain.. the card works fine, but not sure how long it will lastConfused
Stay safeThumpUp
Joe

Medium digital C track layout with MS2: When I grow up I want to be a steam engine driver....
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Offline applor  
#28 Posted : 01 July 2020 23:45:43(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,494
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Originally Posted by: Joe Meiring Go to Quoted Post

Thanks Eric. I've put up pics of the slider and the 3 way. My paper marker indicates where the loco stops. There is no screw in these sliders. Just little lugs that clip into place. It seems to me that the slider is missing the pukos at that position. At speed the momentum will carry it thru....
Going to try and add wire as a bridge....see if that helps....
Thanks, Joe





Yes I am pretty confident your issue is that slider design, with its dip in the middle and a hole as I have had this problem before as well (on different K track though).

When driving slow the puko loses contact at the dip/hole in the slider and due to the rail height and angle there is no other contact with other pukos.
modelling 1954 Germany (era IIIa)
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Offline dickinsonj  
#29 Posted : 02 July 2020 01:50:23(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,326
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post

When driving slow the puko loses contact at the dip/hole in the slider and due to the rail height and angle there is no other contact with other pukos.


That is similar to the problem that I have with shorting on my narrow turnouts, usually when running rolling stock with short sliders and all with that dreaded hole. When the hole stops supporting the slider it drops down onto the crossing rail and that does anything from just sparking to shutting down that circuit's booster. I think something similar is the problem here, but it is stuck on the grounds and not getting any current from any puko.

I think that hole is the main problem here also and for my issues, which are different than yours, just tiny adjustments to the level of the slider has an amazing effect. What we really need is a slider of the same length but without that hole, which servers no purpose that I can see in this slider application. I know you can make your own but I don't have the time or resources and I just want a turnkey deal that I can stick in to replace the defective Märklin ones. It seems like Märklin could at least produce and sell the parts needed to make their equipment function correctly.

Good luck to you with this problem and you will probably figure this out on your own. But from what I can tell everything must be as close to spec as possible for reliable operation, and once achieved it is reasonably good. I have never had electrical issues with mine, but derailments, particularly on three axle trucks can only be avoided by creeping through these turnouts at yard speeds, which I guess is appropriate it is in a yard after all. BigGrin

Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
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Offline Joe Meiring  
#30 Posted : 02 July 2020 17:29:56(UTC)
Joe Meiring

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 93
Location: Fish Hoek, Cape Town
I tested all my locos over my two 3 way turnouts at crawl speeds, and all those with the new "solid" type slider, without the indent and hole in the middle, have no issues crossing the 3 way - forward and/or reverse.
However, each and every loco fitted wifh the slider having the hole and indent/dip, stop on the 3 way....at slow speed, forward and reverse....
Just putting it out there for info...
Thanx to all for the hep!
Joe
Medium digital C track layout with MS2: When I grow up I want to be a steam engine driver....
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Offline Goofy  
#31 Posted : 04 July 2020 11:22:59(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,274
Three way turnout like C track are complex system.
For many years ago before digital era i did used K tracks three way turnout and sometimes there was problem by use slow speed.
It stucked!
You show a picture of C track and i find this three way turnout disgusting by use it on the layout.
The pick up shoe in short or long do have problem with the complex turnouts like three way in the three rail system.
I have not used this turnout since i was kid.
It is now about 45 years ago since i did used this turnout!
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Offline jvuye  
#32 Posted : 04 July 2020 11:45:32(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,839
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: Joe Meiring Go to Quoted Post
I tested all my locos over my two 3 way turnouts at crawl speeds, and all those with the new "solid" type slider, without the indent and hole in the middle, have no issues crossing the 3 way - forward and/or reverse.
However, each and every loco fitted wifh the slider having the hole and indent/dip, stop on the 3 way....at slow speed, forward and reverse....
Just putting it out there for info...
Thanx to all for the hep!
Joe


Just catching up...
Seems no one suggested to check wheel spacing on the loco.
Should be 13.8 mm between flanges.
If it's OK, then try adding 0.1 mm at the time on the outer ones (this has probably the same effect as the fine piece of cardboard ...Wink, pushing the loco back to the center )
Just a thought



Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline Joe Meiring  
#33 Posted : 04 July 2020 13:25:32(UTC)
Joe Meiring

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 93
Location: Fish Hoek, Cape Town
Someone?? suggested somewhere?? To bend the pukos slightly so that the slider having the indent/hole would still be able to get current...?!?...any thoughts on this??
Thanks Anders and Jacques.....
Medium digital C track layout with MS2: When I grow up I want to be a steam engine driver....
Offline jvuye  
#34 Posted : 06 July 2020 17:32:41(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,839
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: Joe Meiring Go to Quoted Post
Someone?? suggested somewhere?? To bend the pukos slightly so that the slider having the indent/hole would still be able to get current...?!?...any thoughts on this??
Thanks Anders and Jacques.....


I wouldn't do that.
It will eventually create problem with other locos
Looking at the loco itself, since it's the only (?) one creating this problem, it's seems to me that the problem is in the lateral "play" of the axles.
After you check the spacing between flanges (see my previous post) evaluate how much lateral play there is in the axles of the bogie in question .
Since you have a 3 axle bogie, Märklin gives it a little more lateral play, so that there is no undue resistance in sharp curves like R1 and R2
I strongly suspect that this is the cause of the problem (and would be consistent with all your descriptions ..) .
If you can measure that "play", I'd be interested , but I bet it's probably up to 1.5 mm

There is not a lot you can do about it, that's the way it's designed and manufactured.
**But** there is a possible cure (you'd be closer to here we would fix this in 5 minutes! Wink )

I would reduce the lateral play of ** the center axle** only to almost zero, by inserting a couple of washers on the axle, between the wheels and the bogie frame.
This would at leat keep the middle of the bogie centered, and I bet the contact would be maintained.

Then there is a more radical solution: install a second pick up on the other bogie, and wire it to the same spot on the decoder as the first one.
That however would only work if there are no spot on the layout where bridging between two power sources would create a short...

Hope this helps..

Jacques
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline David Dewar  
#35 Posted : 06 July 2020 18:10:49(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 6,929
Location: Scotland
Joe. Did you not change the slider to one without a hole. Might take some work but a smaller slider with no hole in the middle may well do the job.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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Offline Joe Meiring  
#36 Posted : 07 July 2020 14:45:36(UTC)
Joe Meiring

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 93
Location: Fish Hoek, Cape Town
Originally Posted by: David Dewar Go to Quoted Post
Joe. Did you not change the slider to one without a hole. Might take some work but a smaller slider with no hole in the middle may well do the job.

Thanks David...are you saying I must leave the slider "body" in place and only remove the slider itself? I must be honest haven't really had a good look as to how the slider is fixed to the two "arms"....
Will check it out and see if I can "borrow" a suitable slider from one of my other locos...
Thanks! Joe
Medium digital C track layout with MS2: When I grow up I want to be a steam engine driver....
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Offline Joe Meiring  
#37 Posted : 07 July 2020 17:31:27(UTC)
Joe Meiring

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 93
Location: Fish Hoek, Cape Town
Originally Posted by: David Dewar Go to Quoted Post
Joe. Did you not change the slider to one without a hole. Might take some work but a smaller slider with no hole in the middle may well do the job.

I have some copper shim stock, about 1.5mm thick, so I cut off a piece that fits into the indentation of the slider, temporarily glued it in place on the diesel loco....and all good!
So thanks to you and others that have said all along its the old type slider that is at fault over the 3 way....
Thank you all for all the input!
Joe M
Medium digital C track layout with MS2: When I grow up I want to be a steam engine driver....
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Offline David Dewar  
#38 Posted : 07 July 2020 20:08:21(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 6,929
Location: Scotland
Originally Posted by: Joe Meiring Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: David Dewar Go to Quoted Post
Joe. Did you not change the slider to one without a hole. Might take some work but a smaller slider with no hole in the middle may well do the job.



I have some copper shim stock, about 1.5mm thick, so I cut off a piece that fits into the indentation of the slider, temporarily glued it in place on the diesel loco....and all good!
So thanks to you and others that have said all along its the old type slider that is at fault over the 3 way....
Thank you all for all the input!
Joe M




Well done Joe. Always thought it was the slider. Brawa I know do a slider without the hole. However Marklin should ensure that their locos will go over all turnouts without any problem. Many problems are simple to correct

David.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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Offline applor  
#39 Posted : 07 July 2020 23:57:12(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,494
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Originally Posted by: David Dewar Go to Quoted Post


Brawa I know do a slider without the hole

David.



Yes that is the Brawa part 2225 which I already posted but it fits the standard ~50mm length slider, rather this loco has a long slider.

Marklin don't make a slider in this length without the hole, nor do anyone else that I am aware of. I had the same problem with my Glaskasten and T3 locos, no slider option without the hole.

For me, I cut my own sliders out of brass sheet and bent the ends into the required shape which replaced the old slider, slotting into the arm pieces. Fiddly work but it does work.

Best and easiest option is probably what hes done really, superglue a small piece of copper to cover the hole. I will be doing this for any others I need from now on.
I tried soldering the hole over but was not happy with it, it's hard to get a flat finish.
modelling 1954 Germany (era IIIa)
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#40 Posted : 08 July 2020 12:58:19(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 5,158
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: David Dewar Go to Quoted Post


Brawa I know do a slider without the hole

David.



Yes that is the Brawa part 2225 which I already posted but it fits the standard ~50mm length slider, rather this loco has a long slider.

Marklin don't make a slider in this length without the hole, nor do anyone else that I am aware of. I had the same problem with my Glaskasten and T3 locos, no slider option without the hole.

For me, I cut my own sliders out of brass sheet and bent the ends into the required shape which replaced the old slider, slotting into the arm pieces. Fiddly work but it does work.

Best and easiest option is probably what hes done really, superglue a small piece of copper to cover the hole. I will be doing this for any others I need from now on.
I tried soldering the hole over but was not happy with it, it's hard to get a flat finish.


I would solder the piece of copper on rather than super gluing it, or even better use a piece of brass rather than copper.
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Offline Joe Meiring  
#41 Posted : 08 July 2020 14:53:33(UTC)
Joe Meiring

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 93
Location: Fish Hoek, Cape Town
......going to get some brass shim stock. I can then sort out my other locos that also battle to get over the 3 way-all wifh the "older" type slider wifh the hole. But need to be able to get to the screw that hold these sliders in place. The newer sliders clip in wifh little lugs, so no need for a hole anyway...
thanks Alan, and everyone for advice/ tips!
Medium digital C track layout with MS2: When I grow up I want to be a steam engine driver....
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Offline applor  
#42 Posted : 09 July 2020 01:05:40(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,494
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
It's only when you go to tighten the screw flat that the slider gets in the way but there's enough movement in the slider and using the screwdriver at an angle that you can screw them without needing the slider hole.
The Brawa slider has a solid slider with a screw attachment.
modelling 1954 Germany (era IIIa)
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Offline dickinsonj  
#43 Posted : 09 July 2020 01:46:08(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,326
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
It's only when you go to tighten the screw flat that the slider gets in the way but there's enough movement in the slider and using the screwdriver at an angle that you can screw them without needing the slider hole.
The Brawa slider has a solid slider with a screw attachment.

Exactly! That is what really irritates me, because that stupid hole was never really needed even with the screw attachment and it has always caused issues on some turnouts. Now with push-on sliders there is no reason for it at all, but the tracking issues continue because the slider is not flat.

Märklin should at least sell replacements with a solid slider at a reasonable cost, since it was their error in the first place. They could make some money in the bargain and get paid to fix their screw up. lol

I believe that in modern business that is called a win - win. BigGrin
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
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Offline mike c  
#44 Posted : 10 July 2020 02:24:06(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,648
Location: Montreal, QC
So, I thought I would take a run at this...

I don't have any of the 3 way switches (K or C). I am wondering whether the track section at the point of the red arrow is metal or plastic?

If that section of the track is plastic, it is possible that the locomotive is getting insufficient ground return contact as it passes through this section, resulting in the locomotive stopping if it cannot maintain sufficient ground return with the other rail.

As the locomotive passes over the switch, especially if it is heading for one of the outer tracks, the force pushes the locomotive towards the rail at the outside of the curve, which might reduce the contact with the other rail which maintains a better ground return. I am curious whether there is an issue when the locomotive is travelling straight, when both wheels are in contact with the middle section?

So, here is what I would check. Test the conductivity of the middle section (red arrow) to the outer rails (yellow arrow) and to the inner rails at the end of the track (blue arrow).
resource.ashx.jpeg

As far as the locomotive is concerned, perform a similar test, checking the conductivity between the left and right wheels of the slider bogie and between the left and right wheels of the motor bogie. Are the wheelsets uninsulated, so that both sides are in contact even when one side is not directly touching a metal rail? Also test to see whether there is conductivity between the slider bogie and the motor bogie, to see whether the ground return is maintained even when one bogie is not contacting the rails?

You can also test this by putting the locomotive upside down in a locomotive cradle and contact one wire to the slider and then connect the return to each wheel to see if all serve as proper return. It may be that the model has universal axles and the wheel contacts are supposed to be joined inside (wiring) to create the ground return (compared to DC models where the model would have separate plus and minus leads).

This may help or it may not be of any use, depending on how the model is set up.

As far as the switch, you can test the middle section by running a DC (Roco) coach with lights (slider added) and install the isolated wheels so that only one side serves as ground. If the middle section is powered, the lights should be constant. If the middle section is not powered, then the lights would go out when the return is no longer completed. I have equipped Roco coaches with lights and insulated wheelsets, rotating one wheelset so that each rail is connected to the return. Once this is done, those coaches can no longer be used on 2 rail DC because it would create a short. Restoring such a coach to it's original insulated setup will result in only one rail per bogie serving as pickup, ideal for this kind of testing.

If it turns out that there is a conductivity issue between the centre section and the outer rails, perhaps this can be reinforced by soldering a wire from the centre section to the outer rail?

Regards

Mike C
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