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Offline ocram63_uk  
#1 Posted : 19 May 2020 23:41:08(UTC)
ocram63_uk

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 336
Location: England, Suffolk
Good evening everyone !! Are you all well ?
I haven't done anything on this loco since I bought it.
This loco has a problem, when I set the direction control to forward it goes backwards with the front light on.
When I set direction to reverse it moves forward with the back light on.

I've taken a couple of pictures of the decoder and the way cables have been soldered, not by me.
I tried swapping the motor cables on the chokes but nothing changes.
The grey cable is attachedcorrectly to the front light.

So where has the cabling gone wrong with this decoder ?
The spare decoder number is: 673380

decoder top.JPG

decoder bottom.JPG

Thank you
Marco
Offline Dave Banks  
#2 Posted : 20 May 2020 01:51:08(UTC)
Dave Banks

Australia   
Joined: 08/03/2006(UTC)
Posts: 961
Location: Gold Coast, Australia.
Looking at your wiring I can see the problem. So wiring from the purple end: Purple - AUX - grey - Green "motor" - Blue"motor" - AUX - Red - Brown.

[img]UserPostedImage[/img]

Image shown here is of the original decoder #37880 (602758 V1.1). Your decoder looks like a later version.
D.A.Banks
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Dave Banks
Offline ocram63_uk  
#3 Posted : 20 May 2020 08:35:12(UTC)
ocram63_uk

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 336
Location: England, Suffolk
My PCB says 1.0
So it looks like I can have the smoke unit on / off by the way you describe your connections
if I solder the smoke unit contact to one of the AUX points.
I'll rewire it then following your photo
Thank you Dave
Marco
Offline Dave Banks  
#4 Posted : 20 May 2020 09:36:19(UTC)
Dave Banks

Australia   
Joined: 08/03/2006(UTC)
Posts: 961
Location: Gold Coast, Australia.
Hello Marco,yes I believe the 2nd blue wire on AUX 1 next to the red wire is for my smoke unit. It was a good job I got mine out the box today as I discovered light rusting in the buffers & metal pipes in the boiler. A light brushing of "Inox" Australian Product soon sorted that out. Keep us posted on your outcome.

Dave...
D.A.Banks
Offline ocram63_uk  
#5 Posted : 20 May 2020 10:35:53(UTC)
ocram63_uk

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 336
Location: England, Suffolk
Dave, on my PCB, contrary to your picture and explanation I have

OUT OF BOX
purple, grey, empty, green, blue, empty, red, brown

DAVE's PHOTO
purple, EMPTY, grey, green, blue, empty, red, brown.

Swapping the grey cable as per photo switches off the front light completely.
Tried all possible combinations testing with the free grey cable all the available solder pads. Nothing.

So as I have an EcOS, one of the best and powerful systems, I told myself 'this is not possible, I'm doing something wrong. This thing can't win'!!
I put the loco on the programming track and let the EcOS find out which decoder it has.
It came out as Motorola 14 !!!!
I put it back on the tracks and, MIRACLE, everything works properly.
So I've gone back to the Out of the Box cable soldering schema and:
Forward + light works
Reverse + light works.

Lesson to be learned?
An important one, ALWAYS let the EcOS recognise the decoders in the locos :-)
Thank you, your suggestions made me analyse the problem under a different light :-)

P.S. I also tried to see if the AUX pads could be switched on/off in order to connect the purple smoke unit
cable, nothing the AUX pads are all dead.
I also thought to connect the purple cable to the grey pad but then thought current draw might be to high and burn the transistor behind it.
This decoder is not available anymore at factory. Nor I want to put a DCC one as this works just fine.

Keep safe everyone
Marco
Offline Dave Banks  
#6 Posted : 20 May 2020 10:47:00(UTC)
Dave Banks

Australia   
Joined: 08/03/2006(UTC)
Posts: 961
Location: Gold Coast, Australia.
Marco I too have an ESOS 50200 & I swear by them. If you had that previously registered on your Ecos yes that could throw all things upside down unless you either edit the functions or delete altogether & reload. I your case the reload worked & your BR44 should perform as it should. I did notice your one did not have the two potentiometers. I am sure you will find a way around adjusting your speed ETC settings. I am pleased we have found a solution. You may have to turn on the F1 & F2 on the Ecos in the function settings with symbols & also go to page two for the last four functions.

Dave...

[img]UserPostedImage[/img]
D.A.Banks
Offline ocram63_uk  
#7 Posted : 20 May 2020 11:59:07(UTC)
ocram63_uk

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 336
Location: England, Suffolk
Hi Dave,
Interesting what you say and I also am puzzled.
I have the two potentiometers and I have 'trimmed' the right motor performances but, F0 = lights, F1=smoke always on, F2 onwards I tried and have no actions on anything.
Your decoder is v 1.1 so maybe you have more Fs available then me with v 1.0 ?
Offline Nigel Packer  
#8 Posted : 20 May 2020 12:25:22(UTC)
Nigel Packer

United Kingdom   
Joined: 11/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 583
Location: Cheshire, UK
MM14 is correct for this decoder!

The V1.0 decoder board has a 701.13 chip on it. This means it is effectively a 6090 decoder. It has potentiometers for maximum speed and acceleration/braking, but it has only one function (headlights) and no absolute direction control. This means it's not possible to command this loco to go forwards or backwards, only to change direction. And the loco will "forget" which direction it's running in, between sessions. That's it - that's the limit for that decoder.

The V1.1 decoder board, though, has a 701.22B chip, which means it supports the enhanced Märklin Motorola protocol, and has F1 to F4 functions, and absolute direction control so that the loco can be told to go forwards. I believe that the two left-hand solder pads in your picture of V1.1 are for functions F1 and F2.

All my locos in that series (37880, 37881, 37882) have the 6090-based decoder. But the 37880 was in the catalogue for the longest of those, being in production until 2002, so later ones may well have had the later and more capable decoder.

I hope this clarifies what you've got!

Nigel
Märklin collector since age 5.
H0 Collection from 1935 to today.
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by Nigel Packer
Offline H0  
#9 Posted : 20 May 2020 12:45:39(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,718
Location: DE-NW
Adding to Nigel's information:
Originally Posted by: Nigel Packer Go to Quoted Post
The V1.1 decoder board, though, has a 701.22B chip
MM 27 would be perfect for this decoder, but MM 14 will also work.
Automatic detection will come up with MM 14.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline ocram63_uk  
#10 Posted : 20 May 2020 13:03:22(UTC)
ocram63_uk

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 336
Location: England, Suffolk
thank you guys for this extra information.
Nigel, Why do you say "This means it's not possible to command this loco to go forwards or backwards, only to change direction"?
I don't understand, Isn't changing direction allowing the loco to go forwards or backwards?
Offline Nigel Packer  
#11 Posted : 20 May 2020 13:15:19(UTC)
Nigel Packer

United Kingdom   
Joined: 11/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 583
Location: Cheshire, UK
Originally Posted by: ocram63_uk Go to Quoted Post
thank you guys for this extra information.
Nigel, Why do you say "This means it's not possible to command this loco to go forwards or backwards, only to change direction"?
I don't understand, Isn't changing direction allowing the loco to go forwards or backwards?



No, not really!

With "MM27" (the second version of Märklin Motorola protocol, supported by decoders 60901 and later), the controller (eg 6021, which was the first to support this) can send a specific direction command to the loco. So, forwards or backwards. If the loco is already going in the chosen direction, it makes no difference, as both loco and controller know which way it's going.

With the older decoders, 6080 and 6090, they always start off going forwards when they are powered up after being off for a while. A change direction will make them go backwards. There is no actual backwards command, so the change of direction will switch the loco from forwards to backwards, or the other way around, without the controller knowing which way the loco is going. For example, if you lift a 6090 loco off the track and change direction on the controller, the loco will not change when you put it back. With a 60901 decoder, the loco will change direction when you put it back, with no further input required by the user.

I hope this makes sense - it's a very simple concept, but it sounds complicated when I try and write it down!

I call this "absolute direction control", and it's a very important feature of modern decoders, especially for computer-controlled layouts, when the software needs to know which way the train is going.

Nigel
Märklin collector since age 5.
H0 Collection from 1935 to today.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Nigel Packer
Offline H0  
#12 Posted : 20 May 2020 13:36:59(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,718
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Nigel Packer Go to Quoted Post
For example, if you lift a 6090 loco off the track and change direction on the controller, the loco will not change when you put it back. With a 60901 decoder, the loco will change direction when you put it back, with no further input required by the user.
I don't think so. I think for both locos direction and controller will be out of sync when you do this (but I may be wrong about this).
But as soon as you reverse on the controller with the loco on the track, the 60901 will be back in sync, while the 6090 stays out of sync.

You can bring a 60901 out of sync by reversing the loco in analogue mode. It will stay out of sync until the digital controller reverses the direction again. I also had this effect while using two digital controllers on one layout.
This is a feature, not a bug. It is called Falschfahrbit (wrong direction bit).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Nigel Packer  
#13 Posted : 20 May 2020 14:07:40(UTC)
Nigel Packer

United Kingdom   
Joined: 11/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 583
Location: Cheshire, UK
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
I don't think so. I think for both locos direction and controller will be out of sync when you do this (but I may be wrong about this).
But as soon as you reverse on the controller with the loco on the track, the 60901 will be back in sync, while the 6090 stays out of sync.

You can bring a 60901 out of sync by reversing the loco in analogue mode. It will stay out of sync until the digital controller reverses the direction again. I also had this effect while using two digital controllers on one layout.
This is a feature, not a bug. It is called Falschfahrbit (wrong direction bit).



Any speed command to a loco includes the direction bit, so the normal refresh cycle of the controller should send this information to all locos that have been referenced this session (in the case of a 6021 controller - I forget exactly how many loco settings can be held in the internal buffer). Other non-Märklin controllers may work differently, I suppose. This is also true for CS2s and CS3s, which have a regular refresh cycle, though I'm not sure how this works for DCC or mfx.

Anyway, the presence or absence of this feature is one of the important differences between the two decoders in this thread. Marco started off by saying his loco didn't go in the direction he expected, so that's definitely relevant!

Thanks for your input, Tom. It's always helpful.

Nigel
Märklin collector since age 5.
H0 Collection from 1935 to today.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Nigel Packer
Offline H0  
#14 Posted : 20 May 2020 15:42:45(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,718
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Nigel Packer Go to Quoted Post
Any speed command to a loco includes the direction bit, so the normal refresh cycle of the controller should send this information to all locos that have been referenced this session
Most likely true. But here the Falschfahrbit comes into play. The decoder drives in one direction and the controller tells it to drive the other way - and the decoder carries on driving in the wrong direction to protect the gears.
Well, maybe driving locos behave different from standing locos.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Dave Banks  
#15 Posted : 20 May 2020 22:56:49(UTC)
Dave Banks

Australia   
Joined: 08/03/2006(UTC)
Posts: 961
Location: Gold Coast, Australia.
Hello Marco, on my 37880 I am able to switch my light on & off on the light function & my smoke on & off via F1. In the beginning of the discussion now having mentioned what Nigel has clarified I made mention of lifting the loco on & off & re-seating the loco in another direction on the track to correspond with the direction of travel on your controller. That is what is done to correct that direction issue on your controller. As mentioned by Nigel your decoder is different & by the sounds of it more advanced that the one I have. All I can think of is to delete the loco from your Ecos & start again & edit the Functions & label them with an output symbol. Also check that the headlight & smoke tabs are in no way connected or sharing a common cable / ground ETC. You absolutely should be able to control both of them via the Ecos.

[img]UserPostedImage[/img]

Dave...
D.A.Banks
Offline ocram63_uk  
#16 Posted : 21 May 2020 18:59:13(UTC)
ocram63_uk

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 336
Location: England, Suffolk
Dave, I think your decoder is newer than mine as mine has written 1.0 on it, as you can see from my photo.
when I removed the grey wire to see what was wrong with its connection I placed it on the solder pad where the smoeke uit is connected. With the F1 button off the front light was on, with the F1 button off the front light was on, so unfortunately I can't switch off the smoke unit at all, on this decoder, even with the EcOS.

You guys have given me an enormous insight on digital technology with your explanations.
In any case I will try the test suggest in post #11 and see what happens, out of curiosity :-)

Thank you and keep staying safe, or as they have now changed, stay ALERT :-)
Marco

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Offline Dave Banks  
#17 Posted : 22 May 2020 04:34:10(UTC)
Dave Banks

Australia   
Joined: 08/03/2006(UTC)
Posts: 961
Location: Gold Coast, Australia.
You many want to go this way but its not cheap:

[img]UserPostedImage[/img]
D.A.Banks
Offline ocram63_uk  
#18 Posted : 22 May 2020 11:21:08(UTC)
ocram63_uk

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 336
Location: England, Suffolk
Now this is what I call a neat and tidy PCB.
What does 'not cheap' mean ?
Is it one of Luessy's or somebody else ?
Offline Dave Banks  
#19 Posted : 23 May 2020 01:06:13(UTC)
Dave Banks

Australia   
Joined: 08/03/2006(UTC)
Posts: 961
Location: Gold Coast, Australia.
EUR 65.00 & you still need the docoder. Note their are 5 to choose from. Not sure with one suits your application:

https://www.ebay.de/itm/5-x-Mark...d=p2047675.c100008.m2219 EUR65.00

Then there is this: https://www.ebay.de/itm/Marklin-...d=p2047675.c100008.m2219 EUR13.99

Or you can use Luessi: http://luessi.ch/eshop/oc/index...duct&product_id=2386 CHF27.50

I could not get my google translate to work so I could not read up which is best for you. I am sure one of learned European members can be more enlightening on this that I am.

Dave...

Edited by user 24 May 2020 00:06:00(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

D.A.Banks
Offline ocram63_uk  
#20 Posted : 23 May 2020 01:12:18(UTC)
ocram63_uk

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 336
Location: England, Suffolk
well it is a bit pricey :-(
But the guy sells 5 of them, if I understood correctly, at
That price. Thank you but I keep it as it is, cheaper :-)
M
Offline TEEWolf  
#21 Posted : 23 May 2020 01:33:53(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,386
Originally Posted by: ocram63_uk Go to Quoted Post
well it is a bit pricey :-(
But the guy sells 5 of them, if I understood correctly, at
That price. Thank you but I keep it as it is, cheaper :-)
M


Agree with you, but have you thought about, if the new Maerklin decoder #60906 AC/DC loco decoder will fit for you too?

https://www.maerklin.de/...s/details/article/60906/

Seems not so expensive as the ones from eBay.

https://www.besserepreis...mae&search=doofinder

This decoder is especially designed for older locos, not only a spare part board, but a complete new decoder.
Offline bph  
#22 Posted : 23 May 2020 12:01:50(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 176
Hi
The 60906 decoder, is not suitable for locomotives with a permanent magnet. It’s for locomotive with field coil motor.
The 37880 have a permanent magnet.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by bph
Offline ocram63_uk  
#23 Posted : 23 May 2020 19:28:49(UTC)
ocram63_uk

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 336
Location: England, Suffolk
If I really wanted to lose a bit more of my eyesight I could go for an ESU LokPilot v 4/5

The 60906 says also the manual is not for locos having a permanent magnet as Dave points out. ESU all the way then, eventually 👍🏻🙂

You all gave me interesting information on these new decoder types

Thank you all
Marco
Offline TEEWolf  
#24 Posted : 24 May 2020 00:26:04(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,386
Originally Posted by: ocram63_uk Go to Quoted Post
If I really wanted to lose a bit more of my eyesight I could go for an ESU LokPilot v 4/5

The 60906 says also the manual is not for locos having a permanent magnet as Dave points out. ESU all the way then, eventually 👍🏻🙂

You all gave me interesting information on these new decoder types

Thank you all
Marco


Maerklin has also mLD decoders for engines with a HLA engine inside for a reasonable price.

https://www.maerklin.de/...s/details/article/60982/

https://www.maerklin.de/...ts/details/article/60983


The offer from Luessi.ch

http://luessi.ch/eshop/o...duct&product_id=2386

is highly recommendable. He is an engineer, has its own company and one of the best homepage about a MRR. His address

https://stayathome.ch/

and offers a detailed description about circuit board

http://luessi.ch/pdf/8040_de.pdf
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