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Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#1 Posted : 19 May 2020 04:42:15(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,970
Location: NY, NY
Hi everyone,

In a random way, I came across a beautiful vintage SNCF 231 type steam locomotive, made in the 1950s by a brand names "Antal" The locomotive was in very bad shape, but I've done a major cleaning and the most important thing is that the train is almost 100% complete. The problem is somebody in America bought the engine, and rigged it for standard DC two rail pickup.

Factory it was 3 rail, although the center shoe is long gone. I have now gotten to the motor, but while I thought it was 3 rail DC, it has a coil. Can anyone tell if this is AC or DC? Naturally I don't want to test it with the wrong current.

Thanks in advance for any tips! Also where to put test leads?

IMG_2129.jpgIMG_2128.jpgIMG_2127.jpgIMG_2126.jpg
FS + SBB Era 2-5 and Vintage Marklin
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Offline kimballthurlow  
#2 Posted : 19 May 2020 11:27:01(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 5,805
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted by: 5HorizonsRR Go to Quoted Post
Hi everyone,

In a random way, I came across a beautiful vintage SNCF 231 type steam locomotive, made in the 1950s by a brand names "Antal" ..


Hi John,
If it is any help, these were also known as Antal Bascou.
This might lead you to references.
I have the impression that you could purchase them either 2 rail or 3 rail.
I have a good photo as below:
UserPostedImage

This one had a Märklin style shoe attached, to suit stud type pick-up.
It is possible they were originally supplied with spoon type pick-ups to suit a continuous third rail, like the early 1930s Märklin track, or Hornby Dublo.
In those days, many French modellers used VB track, which was third rail.

Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail (USA and Australia) - 3 rail (English Hornby Dublo) - a few old O gauge.
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Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#3 Posted : 19 May 2020 18:44:05(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,970
Location: NY, NY
Thanks Kimball. The 3rd rail is gone on my locomotive, as is/were something "under the hood". I suspect this was due to an American DC modeller converting it to a 2 rail setup. That white wire is clearly not factory, and the center pickup is gone.

What I'm trying to sort is whether the motor is AC or DC, so I can test and then bring it back to life accordingly. I'm fairly sure a Marklin analogue reverse unit would be an easy retrofit if it is AC, or a digital decoder (just for control and reversing) if it is DC. Looking underneath I think the addition of a Marklin pickup shoe/ski will not be difficult.

Reality dictates I will rarely (if ever) run it, but I would like to bring the engine back to running order. Ideally in 3 rail AC trim, but even 2 rail DC is fine.

I found this low-resolution schematic, but it appears my missing electronic component is a partial key to the solution. (and for sure never to be found, so a Marklin E unit or a decoder is the answer) Also, my engine does not have a headlight so it may be different

antal_plan.jpg
FS + SBB Era 2-5 and Vintage Marklin
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#4 Posted : 19 May 2020 19:36:14(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,358
that diagram looks nice enough to print out and keep with it!

I suspect it will turn out to be an AC motor. I think a DC motor needs a permanent magnet.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
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Offline JohnjeanB  
#5 Posted : 19 May 2020 22:21:11(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 894
Location: Paris, France
Hi
I agree with Dale, your loco is definitely an AC current locomotive
Here is a picture of how it looked in 1949 in green livery. It was available in 20V AC (to be compatible with JEP HO trains of the times) or 20V DC (later to be compatible with VB and later JEP HO trains after 1952)
http://www.train-jouet.com/Anta...ntal-Amateur-Av_1950.jpg
The same in black simplified livery
http://www.train-jouet.com/Antal/Antal-SD.jpg
IMO it is likely associated with a relay to change directions by interruption of current (not the Märklin Perfekt system)
At the time (late 1940, early 1950) those were the top class locos in France
Here is a train package by Antal http://www.train-jouet.com/Antal/Antal-Coffret.jpg
This is the period when VB created its new track that inspired Märklin for its "Modell Gleis"
Cheers
Jean
My lay-out videos
latest vid
humping yard
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Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#6 Posted : 19 May 2020 22:57:27(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,970
Location: NY, NY
Thanks gents! Now I at least know what to test with. Interesting that the center pickup had been pulled from the locomotive.

JohnJeanB- thank you for the relay information. This adds complication, perhaps I can find a digital decoder for AC motors which will get around that hurdle :)

I'll post test results this evening! And temporarily put the locomotive together to share a few images :)
FS + SBB Era 2-5 and Vintage Marklin
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#7 Posted : 20 May 2020 01:49:38(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,358
The original Märklin 6080 decoder works with AC motors and I believe that the 60906 decoder does too.

Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
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Offline ktsolias  
#8 Posted : 20 May 2020 09:46:47(UTC)
ktsolias

Greece   
Joined: 01/05/2016(UTC)
Posts: 479
Location: Athens
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
The original Märklin 6080 decoder works with AC motors and I believe that the 60906 decoder does too.



Hi

The 60906 decoder works excellent with the LFCM and SLCM. Not so good with DCM butt is not our case.

Plus is mfx and offer F0 lights and AUX1 and AUX2 ready to be used

I have use this decoder in lokos where the change of the motor is not possible or very difficult (3092, 3072, 3113) and I am really happy with the results

Costas
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Offline Unholz  
#9 Posted : 20 May 2020 10:08:05(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,194
Location: Switzerland
Here are some photos of the 3-rail DC variety of Antal's model: http://www.blechundguss.ch/2384.html You can see the spoon-type pickups in the last picture.
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Offline JohnjeanB  
#10 Posted : 20 May 2020 11:43:25(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 894
Location: Paris, France
Hi
Before adding a relay (what type?) I suggest to verify that the inductor winding is double (like Märklin's). If it is then a regular Märklin relay is OK
On the drawing you displayed above (alas difficult to read) there seems to be a selenium rectifier just left and slightly above the motor (I am really not sure) for the 20 VDC version.
The drawing was provided with kits as an alternative to finished products.
Cheers
Jean
My lay-out videos
latest vid
humping yard
Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#11 Posted : 20 May 2020 19:29:38(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,970
Location: NY, NY
Thanks everyone! So last night I did not manage reassembly, but I did test the motor on a Marklin transformer after a little more cleaning. It ran quite well, but REALLY hot. Actually hot enough to cause concern. I have to sort out how to pull the engine apart without destroying anything, but tonight's project will be the brushes and armature to see how bad (or not) they are, and then another test after cleaning. Hopefully that tunes it and tempers the heat situation.

From there I will give the pickup slider project a go, as some fabrication will be needed.

JohnJean- agreed the diagram is likely a DC locomotive. Mine has what appears to be a double winding, but I may try the digital chip out so I have either option.

Images to follow later, sorry to keep teasing...
FS + SBB Era 2-5 and Vintage Marklin
Offline JohnjeanB  
#12 Posted : 20 May 2020 20:02:24(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 894
Location: Paris, France
Of course temperature needs monitoring, but in those days the motors were not high efficiency.
On a recent Märklin loco I have a can motor which needs replacing because it rings 10 Ohms and 900 mA at full speed when it should be 65 Ohms and 150 mA
In your case make sure the motor is mounted in series (inductor and rotor)
Cheers
Jean
My lay-out videos
latest vid
humping yard
Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#13 Posted : 21 May 2020 05:48:13(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,970
Location: NY, NY
Here are a few photos of our troublemaker, which I'm pleased to report I'd sorted all the hardware on. It came to me with kadee couplers, missing parts and other headaches. I removed all of the "bad", made a tender drawbar piece from some metal bar, fabricated a mount and marklin coupler to the tender, and of course a big cleaning etc...

I need to sort how I'm mounting a pickup shoe next- the marklin 7175 is just a few mm too long on either side, so I need to find a creative solution for either the pickup, or the two screws in the way on either end which will short the loco out.

Then of course, the electronics. I did not have luck with the cleaning experiment. I did a big clean, but the heat persisted and now it may have shorted or something. It needs some vetting, but I'm hoping i can be solved.

For now, enjoy the pics!

2.jpg1.jpg
FS + SBB Era 2-5 and Vintage Marklin
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Online Jay  
#14 Posted : 21 May 2020 13:03:32(UTC)
Jay

South Africa   
Joined: 01/05/2010(UTC)
Posts: 268
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post

In your case make sure the motor is mounted in series (inductor and rotor)
Cheers
Jean

Hi Jean,I'm trying to learn some electrics concerning models,please explain how I
would do the above.
Many thanks
Warm regards
Jay
Offline JohnjeanB  
#15 Posted : 21 May 2020 14:15:37(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 894
Location: Paris, France
Hi Jay
Series motor means that one of the brushes (both connected to the rotor) is connected to the inductor (one widing of the large fixed coil) in a way to have the same current but split the overall voltage (rotor voltage+ inductor voltage = track voltage).
Parallel motor means that both the brushes and the inductor receive each the full track voltage and the resulting overall current is the sum of collector current and inductor current.
Series-Parallel.jpg

The result is that the same motor connected in series will have a reduced current and power dissipation compared to the same motor in parallel arrangement.
All toy train motors (except DC motors with a magnet) that I know are in cabled in series (Märklin, JEP, ..).
Cheers
Jean
My lay-out videos
latest vid
humping yard
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Jay
Offline JohnjeanB  
#16 Posted : 21 May 2020 20:07:48(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 894
Location: Paris, France
Hi 5Horizons
I found more info describing your loco: http://www.train-jouet.com/deta...mple/antal_1-details.htm
Cheers
Jean
My lay-out videos
latest vid
humping yard
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Online Jay  
#17 Posted : 21 May 2020 20:54:22(UTC)
Jay

South Africa   
Joined: 01/05/2010(UTC)
Posts: 268
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Hi Jean,thank you so much for the simple and understandable description of series and parallel wiring of model train motors.
The diagrams helped greatly in understanding the Logic. Much appreciated
Warm regards
Jay
Offline kimballthurlow  
#18 Posted : 22 May 2020 11:00:01(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 5,805
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted by: 5HorizonsRR Go to Quoted Post
..

I need to sort how I'm mounting a pickup shoe next- the marklin 7175 is just a few mm too long on either side, so I need to find a creative solution for either the pickup, or the two screws in the way on either end which will short the loco out.



Hi John,
Here is a picture of the Märklin style slider on one engine. (Same engine as my previous photo).
I bid on this engine about 8 years ago, but missed out.
But I kept pictures.

UserPostedImage

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail (USA and Australia) - 3 rail (English Hornby Dublo) - a few old O gauge.
Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#19 Posted : 23 May 2020 19:30:09(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,970
Location: NY, NY
Hi- very interesting Kimball. Your image at the top struck me as odd, but I didn't give it further thought. Seeing this second image confirmed the "odd"

I think the locomotive you posted was either a different generation/model, or has been retrofitted with what appears to be a marklin drivetrain/motor. An image of my motor is below. (one wire is missing from that block center and it is currently a test assembly)

Your image does show a few things of use. The front truck has a lower profile screw than factory to clear the pickup shoe. Studying on my side has revealed the fact I may have a bent front chassis. The pilot truck was not sitting right, the quick fix was loosening a fastener so it sat flat on the rails, but now i found the cause is a bent front of the loco. (note the bend "forwards" in the second image on on the smoke deflectors and chassis where the upper valtrain mounts) This could be the kiss of death for the locomotive if I can't fix it.

Looking at the rear of the locomotive in your image, that is a different trailing truck. perhaps Marklin, or a later version as well.

My next moves are attempting a front end fix, and if I am successful I'll approach motor situation.

IMG_2158.jpg
IMG_2079.JPG
FS + SBB Era 2-5 and Vintage Marklin
Offline DaleSchultz  
#20 Posted : 23 May 2020 20:13:00(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,358
auch! as nasty drop to bend the whole loco!
I would make it into a shelf queen, no decoder...
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
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Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#21 Posted : 24 May 2020 17:43:31(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,970
Location: NY, NY
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
auch! as nasty drop to bend the whole loco!
I would make it into a shelf queen, no decoder...


Its an impressive smash! Shelf queen is looking likely, but quarantine boredom has me taking another look later today...
FS + SBB Era 2-5 and Vintage Marklin
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Jay
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