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Offline Primo -23K  
#1 Posted : 14 March 2020 08:28:34(UTC)
Primo -23K

Australia   
Joined: 20/12/2017(UTC)
Posts: 6
Location: sydney nsw
hi

I am currenlty installing signals on my K track analogue layout and I have install the following:

one signal 7239 on both left and right side of the track and would appreciate with some advice on what other
parts, appart from the 7522 and 7504 needed for the installation.

both lights are working and the loco stops when both signals are on Red. however, when I turn on the signal green on the left hand side and the one on the right
is still Red , the train recommence travelling bypassing the red signal.

I am very new with the electrical systems of marklin and I have a booklet but not very comprehensive for me to figure the problem.

Any help will be grealty appreciate

Kind Regards
Primo/trainsetConfused

Edited by user 15 March 2020 02:09:13(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline HO Collector  
#2 Posted : 15 March 2020 19:12:13(UTC)
HO Collector

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 138
Location: Just north of London
Am not fully understand.
Have you got one track with a signal on either end, i.e train passes from (say) left to right and then from right to left on the same section then you have a signal on each end?
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Offline Primo -23K  
#3 Posted : 16 March 2020 01:51:43(UTC)
Primo -23K

Australia   
Joined: 20/12/2017(UTC)
Posts: 6
Location: sydney nsw

Hi,
many thanks for your reply.

yes exactly as you have stated in your email

I have installed a 7239 signal; one on the right hand side of the track and one on the left hand side of the track, at approximately one train length apart.

any help will be appreciated

Kind Regards
Primo/trainset

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Offline HO Collector  
#4 Posted : 16 March 2020 10:50:07(UTC)
HO Collector

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 138
Location: Just north of London
Hi again.

Before I start just want to say that i have never used this signal but believe that the logic must be the same to all i.e power ON/power OFF.

You have done nothing wrong and all works as it should, what you want to achieve can't be achieved and this is why.

Each signal has 5 wires; red, green, yellow and X2 red that connect to the 3rd rail, these 2 wires allow power to pass (via the signal switch) from the live side of the track to the dead/insulated side of the track, in your case the dead section is between both signals.

When both signals are Red, both switches inside the signals are open, hence, power can't reach the insulated section, however, when one of them is Green the switch inside it is close and allows power to cross, turning the dead section into live. Once the isolated section is live the train will run regardless of the other signal's indication.
Your mistake is that you looked at it as there is a driver in the cab that reacts to the signal's colure that is in front of him, but this is not the case.

You have X2 options:
1. Add a parallel section so one track is for the train travelling to the right and the other to the left, or...
2. Go digital with track sensors and computer control, then the computer knows each trains position and can stop the train per the pre set program.

I hope that this helps.

Ben
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Offline Primo -23K  
#5 Posted : 16 March 2020 11:09:11(UTC)
Primo -23K

Australia   
Joined: 20/12/2017(UTC)
Posts: 6
Location: sydney nsw
hi Ben

I am most grateful for the info that you have provide to me.
I might as well leave the lights as they are for the time being at least they make the scene look good.

there is no room for an additional track, and at this stage I am not going digital
as the layout that is being built is with equipment [brand new] that is 30-40 years old and for a analogue
system.

it is a challenge but I like what I am doing.

again, thank you for your help, it was very much appreciated.

Kind Regards
Primo



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Offline jvuye  
#6 Posted : 16 March 2020 11:43:50(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,834
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: HO Collector Go to Quoted Post

....

You have X2 options:
1. Add a parallel section so one track is for the train travelling to the right and the other to the left, or...
2. Go digital with track sensors and computer control, then the computer knows each trains position and can stop the train per the pre set program.

I hope that this helps.

Ben


Hi, there is in fact at least a 3rd alternative...Wink Wink

Those of us who were born before the digital era Wink had to solve the problem "electromechanically" ...
I remember doing this many years ago...more than I care to count!RollEyes

In your case it implies the use of a either 2229 , 2239 or 2299 directional contact track ahead of the signal you'd like to by-pass (because you'd be traveling in the opposite direction. .

These contact tracks are actuated by the loco's pick up shoe.

It would be used to trigger a "universal relay" 7244 whose contacts would have to be wired in parallel with the signal's.

Since you seem to be new to this, I'd suggest you start doing this with one signal first that you only need to bypass when passing it "in reverse"

Somewhere in the old "Signalbuch" is the schematic that will accomplish this.

I'll try today to "exhume" that one from the "old books' library" and scan the picture/schematic for you.

Cheers
Jacques

Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline Primo -23K  
#7 Posted : 16 March 2020 13:15:08(UTC)
Primo -23K

Australia   
Joined: 20/12/2017(UTC)
Posts: 6
Location: sydney nsw
Hi Jacques

Thank you for your help

I'll wait for your schematic

kind Regards
Primo/Trainset
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Offline HO Collector  
#8 Posted : 16 March 2020 20:24:03(UTC)
HO Collector

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 138
Location: Just north of London
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post
It would be used to trigger a "universal relay" 7244 whose contacts would have to be wired in parallel with the signal's.

Since you seem to be new to this, I'd suggest you start doing this with one signal first that you only need to bypass when passing it "in reverse"

Somewhere in the old "Signalbuch" is the schematic that will accomplish this.



Every day is a school day. Never knew about it. Thanks for the schematics.

Ben (born before the digital days Laugh )
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Offline jvuye  
#9 Posted : 17 March 2020 22:51:21(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,834
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: Primo -23K Go to Quoted Post
Hi Jacques

Thank you for your help

I'll wait for your schematic

kind Regards
Primo/Trainset

Hi
Was busy all day getting organized for confinment here.Wink
Will have plenty of time for the drawing tomorrow!
Cheers
Jacques


Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline jvuye  
#10 Posted : 18 March 2020 15:54:21(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,834
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: Primo -23K Go to Quoted Post
Hi Jacques

Thank you for your help

I'll wait for your schematic

kind Regards
Primo/Trainset


OK here it is

Marklin 446 book Scan 001.jpg

Major difference is that the current C-track and K-track have directional contacts , so you can differentiate the action, depending on the direction of travel (which greatly simplifies the connections)

The 7045 equivalent today is 7244, which has 4 set of inversion contacts instead of 2 in the old one.

The sequence of action(s) is as follow

1) The loco travels from right to left ( Fahrtrichtung ohne Zugbeeinflussung. Travel direction without action on the train) ) and activate the first contact track (with the green dot)

2) the relay's contact has now temporarily "bridged" the signal's contact which puts power back on the signal controlled track section (defined by the two 5022 insulators) , but **without changing the signal aspect**

3) the loco travels , passes the signal, passes over the second 5022 and hits the second contact track (with the red dot) which returns the 7045 relay back to its original (open) condition

Et voilà!

I suggest you try with one signal first, using only one of the switches on each contact track ...

After you understand how it operates , you'll soon see that adding the second set of contacts (that will then operate in reverse sequence...) will give you exactly the same effect on the second signal , i.e in the reverse direction

It's not "magic", just "logic"

Don't hesitate to ask for more info or help with translation if needed

Have fun.

Jacques

Jacques
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline HO Collector  
#11 Posted : 20 March 2020 22:23:46(UTC)
HO Collector

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 138
Location: Just north of London
Hi Jacques

Thank you for this, never knew.

Hope that you will come out ok from your isolation.

Ben
Offline jvuye  
#12 Posted : 20 March 2020 23:41:08(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,834
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: HO Collector Go to Quoted Post
Hi Jacques

Thank you for this, never knew.

Hope that you will come out ok from your isolation.

Ben


Thanks Ben!
Not to worry.
For the moment I have plenty of traisn, Meccano, wine and tons of music and videos.
Finally no excuse not to enjoy all that!
Just be prepared...it's likely to cross the channel.
Cheers
Jacques
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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