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Offline thing fish  
#1 Posted : 08 March 2020 12:31:03(UTC)
thing fish

Turkey   
Joined: 25/01/2020(UTC)
Posts: 143
Location: istanbul
Hi folks,

I have some main/distant signals on the same post. There is also shunting signal on the same post.

All I know is that the distant signal should be referring to a main signal that is placed ahead. But apart from that, I have no clue on operating these signals. An example: My guess is that all mainline signals must be red in case shunting allowed, and shunting shouldn't be allowed if any main signal is green. I don't know even this is correct.

I have read a lot on the net about the signals but they only refer to the meanings of the signals and not how to operate them together.

Can anyone explain how to operate this type of signals?

Cheers,

Cem.
Offline Alsterstreek  
#2 Posted : 08 March 2020 14:59:48(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,767
Location: Southwesternmost
Originally Posted by: thing fish Go to Quoted Post
My guess is that all mainline signals must be red in case shunting allowed, and shunting shouldn't be allowed if any main signal is green.
That is my understanding, too. Below is an excerpt from the “Signal-Buch - DB Netz AG” regarding the combination of HP 0 and Sh 1 /Ra 12 (see note 5).

81232B34-8072-4165-9A6F-37F654029A4B.jpeg
https://fahrweg.dbnetze....tualisierung_10-data.pdf
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Offline PMPeter  
#3 Posted : 08 March 2020 15:41:00(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,062
Location: Port Moody, BC
When the distant signal is on a common mast with the main signal, either entrance, exit or block, the distant signal displays the status of the next main signal only if the common signal on the mast is green or green/yellow. If the common main signal is red, the distant signal is dark (ie - turned off).

There is a very good description of DB signal operation on the Rocrail WIKI at the following location:

Rocrail signal info

In this document Sections 1 to 5 deal with how the signals operate and then the subsequent sections deal with how to implement this on the model railway using Rocrail. So the first 5 sections should be relevant for you if you are not using Rocrail.

Hope this helps.

Peter
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Offline thing fish  
#4 Posted : 08 March 2020 15:43:20(UTC)
thing fish

Turkey   
Joined: 25/01/2020(UTC)
Posts: 143
Location: istanbul
Very helpful Peter, just what I was looking for.

C.
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Offline jvuye  
#5 Posted : 08 March 2020 16:44:34(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,832
Location: South Western France
I'll just add that you can (for realism's sake) add the "Gleissperrsignal" (white disc with a black diagonal) e.g. Märklin 7042 (old) or 70241, 70422 (new) to the Exit signal of the station , with two aspect (Sh0 and Sh1)

This one will allow passing the main signal for shunting movements only (usually up to a predefined position that is usually marked by a white half circle marked in Germany with "Halt Für Rangierfahrten"

Of course when you turn the (main) exit signal from HP 0 = Halt (or HP 00) to HP 1= Run , you also first need the set the Gleissperrsignal fron Sh0 (stop) to Sh1 (movement allowed)

This may seem redundant but it is the way to communicate to the driver the difference between a short shunting movement and regular circulation.

Do not hesitate to ask that type of question(s) , there are quite a lot of people here who are also "signal minded"! Wink

Threre is a whole set of rules for proper placement , and that is precisely where a model railroader can display realistic situations and operation!

I am building a Swiss Layout and although the signals are different in aspect, the logic is basically the same!

A retired SBB-CFF engineer made me a present of his green "bible" containing all the rules on literally "How to run on a railroad" (Schweizerische Eisenbahnen FahrdiesntVorschriften" )

So ask away!

Cheers

Jacques

The book of signals by Märklin is described here :
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline PMPeter  
#6 Posted : 08 March 2020 20:35:50(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,062
Location: Port Moody, BC
I'm not sure that adding a "Gleissperrsignal" in front of a modern light signal having a main signal, a distant signal and shunting signal on the same mast would be appropriate. Perhaps it is and I can learn something, but I think it would be more appropriate in front of semaphore type signals.

The signal described by the OP seems to be like the Viessmann 4016 common mast exit and distant signal. So adding another "Gleissperrsignal" in front of that appears to be redundant to me.

Peter
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Offline thing fish  
#7 Posted : 08 March 2020 20:57:05(UTC)
thing fish

Turkey   
Joined: 25/01/2020(UTC)
Posts: 143
Location: istanbul
Originally Posted by: PMPeter Go to Quoted Post
I'm not sure that adding a "Gleissperrsignal" in front of a modern light signal having a main signal, a distant signal and shunting signal on the same mast would be appropriate.


Peter,

I think Jacques suggests the shunting signal after the main mast, with the main signal that is (per se) of the distant signal. This makes sense if there is entrance/exit from/to shunting area at the other end too. So it would be the main mast with distant/main/shunting at one side of the bahnhof, and main signal + shunting signal at the other end.

I think ...

C.

Offline jvuye  
#8 Posted : 09 March 2020 09:00:25(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,832
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: PMPeter Go to Quoted Post
I'm not sure that adding a "Gleissperrsignal" in front of a modern light signal having a main signal, a distant signal and shunting signal on the same mast would be appropriate. Perhaps it is and I can learn something, but I think it would be more appropriate in front of semaphore type signals.

The signal described by the OP seems to be like the Viessmann 4016 common mast exit and distant signal. So adding another "Gleissperrsignal" in front of that appears to be redundant to me.

Peter


Hi!
I was indeed suggesting that configuration in case of using sémaphores and discs.(which is IMHO much sexier than light signals Love)
.In the case of light signals the Sperrsignal is materialized by white lights (horizontal =no movement, diagonal=movement allowed) and is usually incorporated on the same shield as the main signal.
In Switzerland à close equivalent is the Zwergsignal (dwarfsignal) which is presenting the same aspects as the German ones but are almost always mounted at ground level
Hope this clarifies my previous post.
Cheers
Jacques
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline thing fish  
#9 Posted : 09 March 2020 09:03:22(UTC)
thing fish

Turkey   
Joined: 25/01/2020(UTC)
Posts: 143
Location: istanbul
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post
... sémaphores and discs.(which is IMHO much sexier than light signals Love)


Ditto!

But I'm stuck with 4 x Brawa 8704 light signals ... maybe I should offer them on eBay LOL

C.

Offline TEEWolf  
#10 Posted : 09 March 2020 17:25:08(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,389
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post
I'll just add that you can (for realism's sake) add the "Gleissperrsignal" (white disc with a black diagonal) e.g. Märklin 7042 (old) or 70241, 70422 (new) to the Exit signal of the station , with two aspect (Sh0 and Sh1)

This one will allow passing the main signal for shunting movements only (usually up to a predefined position that is usually marked by a white half circle marked in Germany with "Halt Für Rangierfahrten"

Of course when you turn the (main) exit signal from HP 0 = Halt (or HP 00) to HP 1= Run , you also first need the set the Gleissperrsignal fron Sh0 (stop) to Sh1 (movement allowed)

This may seem redundant but it is the way to communicate to the driver the difference between a short shunting movement and regular circulation.

Do not hesitate to ask that type of question(s) , there are quite a lot of people here who are also "signal minded"! Wink

Threre is a whole set of rules for proper placement , and that is precisely where a model railroader can display realistic situations and operation!

I am building a Swiss Layout and although the signals are different in aspect, the logic is basically the same!

A retired SBB-CFF engineer made me a present of his green "bible" containing all the rules on literally "How to run on a railroad" (Schweizerische Eisenbahnen FahrdiesntVorschriften" )

So ask away!

Cheers


Interesting to see an old Maerklin signal book as a video. The Internet provides you with almost everything.Smile

May I provide you with the PDF file for the book in this video. It is #341,so it is in English.
0341 maerklin-0341-model-signals-en.pdf (13,203kb) downloaded 15 time(s).

Also a link to Maerklins database for all its old and new signals including a video about signals too.

https://www.maerklin.de/de/lp/2017/signale/

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Offline TEEWolf  
#11 Posted : 09 March 2020 17:36:57(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,389
Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post
That is my understanding, too. Below is an excerpt from the “Signal-Buch - DB Netz AG” regarding the combination of HP 0 and Sh 1 /Ra 12 (see note 5).


Thanks for this link. I knew that such a book of the DB AG must have been somewhere in the Internet, but I had it not found yet. Now I got it. But doesn't make it laughing almost 200 pages for explaining simple signals? Laugh Just wonderful.

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