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Offline bph  
#1 Posted : 03 March 2019 18:57:32(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 996
I’m upgrading my old NSB El 18 (Re 460) with Led lights and a new mSD3.

I have two E172883 led boards. But since I don’t have any information on the led chips, and it’s a guess to calculate the resistors. Have guessed the following data. 20mA led current. 22v supply, voltage drop 2,4v yellow, and 2,0 on red. The uncertain factor her is the LED mA.

will these values work ?,
single yellow 1Kohm
Dual red (serial). 910ohm
Dual yellow(parallel). One 499 Ohm parallel, or two 1Kohm (one on each pad) ?

Anny help is much appreciated.
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#2 Posted : 03 March 2019 23:10:33(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
I would aim for 15mA - if that turns out to be too dull, you can reduce the resistor.
Most LEDs are very bright at 20mA and at HO scale 15 seems better. In this case it is also safer.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
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Offline bph  
#3 Posted : 04 March 2019 17:22:28(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 996
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
I would aim for 15mA - if that turns out to be too dull, you can reduce the resistor.
Most LEDs are very bright at 20mA and at HO scale 15 seems better. In this case it is also safer.


Thanks.
I think my aim is to be safe with the voltage. It’s always also possible to dim the light in the decoder setup. However, I have seen comments that the plastic housing on the LED boards dim them a bit too much, on original fitted Re 460.https://www.marklin-users.net/forum/posts/t23509-Marklin--37462---SBB-Re-460-054-red-livery
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Offline g-gekko  
#4 Posted : 04 March 2019 18:10:25(UTC)
g-gekko

Norway   
Joined: 05/08/2015(UTC)
Posts: 25
Location: Viken
I used 1 Kohm resistors for all the leds when I converted my EL18 2241 with the MSD3 and E172883 (1 at each pads for white lights). The LEDS are a little too bright but can be dimmed in the decoder settings. See the picture to compare with the EL18 2255 that is originally fitted with that LED board.

Be aware that the light conductor for the top light needs to be shortened to line up correctly behind the LED board.

2241-2255.jpg
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Offline JohnjeanB  
#5 Posted : 04 March 2019 18:14:22(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,123
Location: Paris, France
Hi
I have noticed that decoder dimming is OK when seeing but flckering when making videos (iphone) so now I adapt resistors instead
Cheers
Jean
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bph
Offline bph  
#6 Posted : 08 March 2019 18:08:25(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 996
Originally Posted by: g-gekko Go to Quoted Post
I used 1 Kohm resistors for all the leds when I converted my EL18 2241 with the MSD3 and E172883 (1 at each pads for white lights). The LEDS are a little too bright but can be dimmed in the decoder settings. See the picture to compare with the EL18 2255 that is originally fitted with that LED board.

Be aware that the light conductor for the top light needs to be shortened to line up correctly behind the LED board.

2241-2255.jpg


Thanks for the information, and picture to illustrate.

Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi
I have noticed that decoder dimming is OK when seeing but flckering when making videos (iphone) so now I adapt resistors instead
Cheers
Jean


Thanks for the tip.
Offline tfk  
#7 Posted : 13 October 2019 19:26:51(UTC)
tfk

Netherlands   
Joined: 18/10/2015(UTC)
Posts: 17
Location: Somewhere in the Netherlands
Sorry for the late reply but has any of you information on this board and the correct way of connecting it?

I'm planning to do exactly this conversion of the Delta variant of this locomotive and I've gotten two E172883 boards and corresponding brackets.

But I'm not entirely sure which lead goes where and what kind of light combinations are possible.

[img]https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1sW3poC5BTgm55yyqaSs71pDDRDOTbovP[/img]

[img]https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1XFw2zt4gerlZ-GvxAOIC6WMoit5FD--2[/img]

There is also a light in the center of the print with it's own connection.

Tnx!
TFK
TFK
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Offline g-gekko  
#8 Posted : 13 October 2019 22:00:09(UTC)
g-gekko

Norway   
Joined: 05/08/2015(UTC)
Posts: 25
Location: Viken
The 172883 gives you many possibilities to comply with signal combinations actually used by the operator of the locomotive.

When you look at the side with the soldering pads with the cutout down as it will be when placed in the bracket the connection points is:
1- left white marker light
2- U+
3- Long distance light

4- right white marker light
5- Both red marker lights

The led in the middle of this side is the long distance light. Delta locomotives have a light conductor pointing toward one of the light bulbs. Locomotives delivered with 172883 have a different light conductor pointing toward the led in the middle. That is why it is necessary to shorten the light conductor or buy the 231483 set that includes the new one.

You may connect four outputs to each board, but the MSD3 only have 6. If you do not need the signal combinations used in Switzerland, you could use the same output to both white marker lights.

To achive more output possibilites you can take advantage of the possibility to set aux3 and aux 4 to logical output. Then you can connect transistors to these outputs. I prefer IRF7103 Mosfets soldered to a SOIC8 to DIP8 adapter board. When using these you can turn aux 3 and/or aux4 on and off and they will give power depending on light forward and light backward.
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Offline tfk  
#9 Posted : 13 October 2019 22:23:20(UTC)
tfk

Netherlands   
Joined: 18/10/2015(UTC)
Posts: 17
Location: Somewhere in the Netherlands
Thank you so much! I had my suspicions that 2 was the U+ but I didn't want to blow up the LEDs.

I do have the IRF7103 but I'm going for an ESU Loksound 5 21MTC in combination with the adapter board. The latter has the components to make the AUX3 and 4 logical.

I'm going for the Norwegian signal combinations as it is an EL18. I still need to figure out what those are. In the Netherlands we have the single white light for shunting operations. Anyways, that needs some investigation.

Good tip on the light conductors. I always do my rebuilds with the idea that I can build back to original so I'm going to order those.

Where did you find the corresponding passenger cars for this loco? M made a nice version of the E18 but failed to make the cars...

TFK
TFK
TFK
Offline g-gekko  
#10 Posted : 14 October 2019 18:30:21(UTC)
g-gekko

Norway   
Joined: 05/08/2015(UTC)
Posts: 25
Location: Viken
Trykk 401 (https://jernbane.net/norge/Trykk401/Contents.html - sorry, only in Norwegian) §311 spesifies how to use signals on trains in Norway.

Line operation:
2 white marker lights and upper light are lit forward when
-The locomotive are in front of the train.
-The locomotive is alone

2 red marker lights are lit backward when
-The locomotive is alone
-On a locomotive that is pushing the wagons.

Shunting operation:
2 white marker lights both forward and backward all the time.


Even thoug this is how signals are supposed to be operated it is not uncommon to see locomotives pulling a train with white marker lights lit both forward and backward and the upper light forward. I cannot remember having seen an EL 18 showing signal backward into the first wagon.

NMJ www.nmj.eu sells locomotives and wagons related to Scandinavia. They have both B3 and B7 wagons that suits the EL 18. Since the majority of model railroaders in Norway are running on DC, they are delivered with DC wheels. NMJ sells AC wheels, interior lighting kit and rear marker lights (B3) for the wagons. Viessmann power conducting couplings and Roco short slider fits both wagons. Both the B3 and B7 wagons are derailing with DC wheels on Märklin tracks. The AC wheels fits the B3 wagons perfectly, but the B7s boggie is a little too tight for AC wheels. You can solve that by making small cuts in the boggies so the wheels can spin freely. The B7 wagons are very long so they have some problems with R1 radius. B3 wagons are working very good on Märklin tracks when the wheels are swapped.
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Offline tfk  
#11 Posted : 14 October 2019 19:57:36(UTC)
tfk

Netherlands   
Joined: 18/10/2015(UTC)
Posts: 17
Location: Somewhere in the Netherlands
Cool cool cool! LOL Thank you for your time and patience to explain all of this.

And regarding the language: ingen problem, jeg snakker/forstår norsk... (man kan hører att jeg er Nederlandsk men jeg kan snakke med Nordmenn og det er ingen problem å lese norsk tekst)

Tusen takk for hjelpen!

TFK

Edited by user 14 October 2019 23:58:55(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

TFK
TFK
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Offline torhb  
#12 Posted : 16 October 2019 18:17:17(UTC)
torhb


Joined: 08/11/2001(UTC)
Posts: 41
Location: Oppegård,
Originally Posted by: g-gekko Go to Quoted Post
Trykk 401 (https://jernbane.net/norge/Trykk401/Contents.html - sorry, only in Norwegian) §311 spesifies how to use signals on trains in Norway.

Line operation:
2 white marker lights and upper light are lit forward when
-The locomotive are in front of the train.
-The locomotive is alone

2 red marker lights are lit backward when
-The locomotive is alone
-On a locomotive that is pushing the wagons.

Shunting operation:
2 white marker lights both forward and backward all the time.


Even thoug this is how signals are supposed to be operated it is not uncommon to see locomotives pulling a train with white marker lights lit both forward and backward and the upper light forward. I cannot remember having seen an EL 18 showing signal backward into the first wagon.

NMJ www.nmj.eu sells locomotives and wagons related to Scandinavia. They have both B3 and B7 wagons that suits the EL 18. Since the majority of model railroaders in Norway are running on DC, they are delivered with DC wheels. NMJ sells AC wheels, interior lighting kit and rear marker lights (B3) for the wagons. Viessmann power conducting couplings and Roco short slider fits both wagons. Both the B3 and B7 wagons are derailing with DC wheels on Märklin tracks. The AC wheels fits the B3 wagons perfectly, but the B7s boggie is a little too tight for AC wheels. You can solve that by making small cuts in the boggies so the wheels can spin freely. The B7 wagons are very long so they have some problems with R1 radius. B3 wagons are working very good on Märklin tracks when the wheels are swapped.


I have had no problems running the B7 wagons with DC wheels on C-track with R1 curves. One wagon has been constantly derailing on a (R2) turnout with pushing lok, but I believe that is caused by the buffers on that particular wagon.

The B3 wagons I have not run that much.

Regards

Tor
Tor Harald Bøhler
Oppegård, Norway
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