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Offline DaleSchultz  
#101 Posted : 03 June 2019 21:30:31(UTC)
DaleSchultz


Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,994
that could be a good explanation.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline kiwiAlan  
#102 Posted : 04 June 2019 00:02:47(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 4,299
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post

As the capacitor buffer is feeding input to the voltage regulator, is it the case that as the capacitor discharges to a certain point, the voltage regulator no longer can provide its requested output and shuts off the load effectively, thus not further discharging the capacitor, so when the power comes on again, the capacitor still has a some charge in it and thus needs much less current to top its charge off?


That would be my suspicion as well. I think if you measure the voltage across the capacitor at the point where it drops from 9mA to 0mA you will find the capacitor voltage is equal to the LED voltage at normal (or possibly slightly reduced) brightness. So once the LEDs stop conducting the capacitor is loosing minimal charge.

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Offline DaleSchultz  
#103 Posted : 04 June 2019 21:37:20(UTC)
DaleSchultz


Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,994
so, now I am turning my attention to very small plugs.

Ideally I want something that will allow them to be daisy chained so that the next coach, pickup, and flicker module can be plugged together as needed.
as small and flat as possible.

Something like this:

plug.png

I am thinking it is best to run wires along the underside of each coach and run the wires to almost the middle of the next coach. Essentially creating a bus for teh power along the underside of the train. Anti-flicker modules and LED lights are then added as needed.

tiono has suggested the search "mini steckerset 2 polig" on Ebay but I looked on ebay.com and ebay.de and did not find them.
The Roco 40345 is an actual coupler and not what I am looking for either. Many of my old tin plate coaches do not even have NEM pockets.

Even the small JST plugs do not seem to daisy chain, so I may have to go for a 6 pole socket into which I insert 3 plugs, and connect the positive and negatives of teh 6 pole socket together....

or small solder pads on a small board.... perhaps with room for the pickup shoe diode....




Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline DaleSchultz  
#104 Posted : 04 June 2019 22:12:12(UTC)
DaleSchultz


Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,994
I may need to make them out of header pins - like this:

https://tonystrains.com/...73-2-pin-micro-connector
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline dominator  
#105 Posted : 04 June 2019 23:10:25(UTC)
dominator

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 711
Location: Kerikeri
How do you hope to allow for flexibility, especially with those tin plate carriages because they swing a long way sideways when changing direction. [ mind you, I do run M track ].
I also have a lot of analogue locos, and would like to be able to run something like this on either digital or analogue. One of my 280 trannys puts out 29 volt AC in the reversing pulse, and when converted through a bridge rectifier, steps up to nearly 50 volts. I presume then it would be better to have a master coach set up for digital and another set up for analogue.

Dereck
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä
Offline DaleSchultz  
#106 Posted : 04 June 2019 23:10:28(UTC)
DaleSchultz


Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,994
Since I expect these installations to be pretty permanent, perhaps soldering onto a small board would actually be the simplest:

Imagine a tiny circuit single sided board like this:

board.png
(R1 and D1 to be positioned vertically next to C1)

This board can be used as follows:

1. Populated with C1, R1 and D1 as anti-flicker module, rightmost three pairs of solder pads cut off, supply wires soldered to remaining pair.

2. Populated with C1, R1 and D1 as anti-flicker module, rightmost two pairs of solder pads cut off, LED module soldered to one pair and supply wires soldered to remaining pair.

3. Unpopulated onnector board glued to underside of coach, allowing wires to be soldered on to pads from adjacent coach, previous coach, flicker module, LED module

4. Connector board glued to underside of coach, pickup shoe soldered to C1 positive, and D1 in place. Next coach, anti-flicker, and LED modules connected to solder pads.

In other words, a single multi-purpose board that can be cut down as needed. It would be very flexible in use. If there is lots of space, as in a baggage car, use one to handle the flicker and a nexus for all the connections. If space is limited, use just for the flicker module in the bathroom, and run wires from it and the LEDs to the underside to connect with each other, and power, etc.

I think such a board could be made for about 33c each if I order 100 from https://jlcpcb.com

(PCB thickness 0.6, matt black, one sided, lead OK)

Thoughts?
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline DaleSchultz  
#107 Posted : 04 June 2019 23:16:50(UTC)
DaleSchultz


Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,994
Originally Posted by: dominator Go to Quoted Post
How do you hope to allow for flexibility, especially with those tin plate carriages because they swing a long way sideways when changing direction.

I think that small multi-strand wires will be flexible enough and can be made to look like brake hoses running past the couplers.

Originally Posted by: dominator Go to Quoted Post
I also have a lot of analogue locos, and would like to be able to run something like this on either digital or analogue. One of my 280 trannys puts out 29 volt AC in the reversing pulse, and when converted through a bridge rectifier, steps up to nearly 50 volts. I presume then it would be better to have a master coach set up for digital and another set up for analogue.

Dereck

yes, that reverse pulse would probably destroy the little regulator, so for analog use a bigger regulator or some other voltage limiting device would be needed in addition to the diode. If that can be done then all the rest can stay the same, but the lights will go out when the train slows down and the voltage drops below about 10 V

Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline kiwiAlan  
#108 Posted : 04 June 2019 23:21:55(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 4,299
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post

Even the small JST plugs do not seem to daisy chain, so I may have to go for a 6 pole socket into which I insert 3 plugs, and connect the positive and negatives of teh 6 pole socket together....

or small solder pads on a small board.... perhaps with room for the pickup shoe diode....


The only connectors I have come across that will stack the way you seem to be suggesting are the ones used for piggyback PCBs like Arduino/Raspberry Pi/etc shields where multiple PCBs can be stacked. But these connectors will be far too large for what you want.

Offline DaleSchultz  
#109 Posted : 04 June 2019 23:24:54(UTC)
DaleSchultz


Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,994
yes, that I what I meant by header pins. Since then, I am now thinking that a small connector board that can have wires soldered onto small pads will in fact be easier.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline DaleSchultz  
#110 Posted : 04 June 2019 23:37:09(UTC)
DaleSchultz


Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,994
an additional idea:

If I make the end of the board the same with as the regulator, I could place the solder pads so that the two boards can be soldered together. That would allow the regulator to be on the underside too, making brightness adjustments very easy, and providing increase flexibility in the placement of the LED strip in the roof.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline tiono  
#111 Posted : 05 June 2019 04:00:27(UTC)
tiono

United States   
Joined: 09/02/2010(UTC)
Posts: 208
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post

tiono has suggested the search "mini steckerset 2 polig" on Ebay but I looked on ebay.com and ebay.de and did not find them.


https://www.ebay.de/itm/Mini-Steckerset-2-polig-connector-set-grid-Steckverbinder-2pin-pcb-Stiftleiste/372665688683?hash=item56c49b226b:m:mh_Y0M4HL2m8tcd7cMvsCOg

The problem with pin-connector is; must put something to tighten (maybe adhesive tape?), otherwise the connector will loose after sometime due to coach movement.

Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post

That would allow the regulator to be on the underside too, making brightness adjustments very easy, and providing increase flexibility in the placement of the LED strip in the roof.


I presume you want to put the regulator underside, at the middle of the coach. If your coach is 33cm (full length 1:87 scale), then the regulator may hit turn-out lantern and causing derailment.

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Offline dominator  
#112 Posted : 05 June 2019 04:34:10(UTC)
dominator

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 711
Location: Kerikeri
https://www.ebay.com/itm...:mnUyeGcHk-gMPDk4JWVyz7A

These wont come apart easily. In fact, you might have to relieve the tags that lock these together.
Dereck
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä
Offline tiono  
#113 Posted : 05 June 2019 05:07:49(UTC)
tiono

United States   
Joined: 09/02/2010(UTC)
Posts: 208
Originally Posted by: dominator Go to Quoted Post
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sale-Mini-Micro-JST-XH-2-5-2-Pin-Connector-plug-with-Wires-Cables-10-100Pcs-New/162642641779?hash=item25de41c373:m:mnUyeGcHk-gMPDk4JWVyz7A

These wont come apart easily. In fact, you might have to relieve the tags that lock these together.
Dereck


But it is probably too big; 2.5mm pitch, total width around 7mm. As compared to micro pin connector, which is just around 2mm width and 1mm pitch.
I am looking for 2 pin 1mm pitch connector
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by tiono
Offline dominator  
#114 Posted : 05 June 2019 08:41:45(UTC)
dominator

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 711
Location: Kerikeri
I just measured the maximum offset of two 24mm tin plate coaches in the middle of an "S" on 5100 m track. It is 23mm. In that case how long do the flexible leads need to be between the coaches? The distance apart of the coaches is virtually the same. This question is related to joining a series of coaches together electrically with at least two wires between all coaches. I have an idea of how to overcome the problem but would like to see others answers before stating mine.
Dereck.
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä
Offline mario54i  
#115 Posted : 05 June 2019 09:50:36(UTC)
mario54i

Italy   
Joined: 28/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 158
Location: Torino,
Originally Posted by: dominator Go to Quoted Post
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sale-Mini-Micro-JST-XH-2-5-2-Pin-Connector-plug-with-Wires-Cables-10-100Pcs-New/162642641779?hash=item25de41c373:m:mnUyeGcHk-gMPDk4JWVyz7A

These wont come apart easily. In fact, you might have to relieve the tags that lock these together.
Dereck


I have connectors like these, but smaller, 1.25 mm pitch, bought from Amazon
JST 1.25 mm connectors

They are small but wire is a bit too stiff for our application. The ones from Ledbaron are more flexible.

Regards

Offline DaleSchultz  
#116 Posted : 05 June 2019 15:18:59(UTC)
DaleSchultz


Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,994
my normal approach will be to place the regulator in the roof. But if there is enough place on the underside without it fouling things, then it could go on the underside too.
The size of the JST connectors and having to add our own wires that are flexible enough is what is making me think of going to permanent connections. That of course makes maintaining the rake of coaches more difficult for sure, but also not insolvable.

I have installed Eagle software for drawing a circuit board and am learning how to use it in order to draw a proper circuit board.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline DaleSchultz  
#117 Posted : 06 June 2019 19:21:31(UTC)
DaleSchultz


Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,994
I measured the inrush and stable current draw at various input voltages.

The lines on this graph shows the inrush in blue and stable draw in mA.
The two circles represent the inrush and stable draw when using the digital track current (going through a single diode, so about 17.3V half wave)

drawgraph.png

On the workbench I cannot see the light output changing until I get below 4mA where it drops off rapidly. That is not to say that two coaches running at different levels wont look different from across the room though. I suspect they will look different.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by DaleSchultz
Offline DaleSchultz  
#118 Posted : 06 June 2019 19:24:46(UTC)
DaleSchultz


Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,994
and here is my current state of my attempt to draw a circuit board in Eagle.

Eagleboard.png

I will be away for a week so I wont be able to do much on this for a while...
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by DaleSchultz
Offline Minok  
#119 Posted : 06 June 2019 19:58:17(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,929
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Nice. It would be interesting to add a line to the graph with its own axis that depicts for the various voltages how many milliseconds of light is produced when you pull the carriage from the power supply.

That would allow you to dial in the voltage on the performance that actually maters most: bridging a power drop out on a moving carriage.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
Offline DaleSchultz  
#120 Posted : 06 June 2019 20:20:44(UTC)
DaleSchultz


Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,994
indeed, but how would I measure that? And how long are the power drops on my layout? And how often...?

Certainly the coach with 470uF capacitor and 430 Ohm resistor seems solid on my layout so far.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline mario54i  
#121 Posted : 06 June 2019 22:16:26(UTC)
mario54i

Italy   
Joined: 28/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 158
Location: Torino,
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
and here is my current state of my attempt to draw a circuit board in Eagle.

Eagleboard.png

I will be away for a week so I wont be able to do much on this for a while...


Good start

after a while you will get something like this



regards

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Offline DaleSchultz  
#122 Posted : 06 June 2019 23:36:03(UTC)
DaleSchultz


Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,994
well, the idea is one that is very cheap and also very efficient.
Having surface mount components manufactured on the board cheap? I know it would allow us to get rid of the resistors on the typical LED strips, but not much else that I can see.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline dominator  
#123 Posted : 07 June 2019 00:00:49(UTC)
dominator

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 711
Location: Kerikeri
While waiting for various new bits to arrive, I have been playing around with the physical side. Mainly with the 24 mm coaches. The connectors I mentioned above are not too big, and if the leads are placed in the bogies above the axles, and feed along one side of the couplings, then the movement is not too great, especially when the wires feed up through the floor, are bent towards the end of the coach. The wires are not so obvious either. I used a pair of 5 wire couplings which i had, to do the experiment. I haven't looked at coaches with the close couplers yet as i think that would be a bit different.

Some time ago I worked out how to fit LED's into an analogue loco using micro a bridge rectifier and micro CCR.[ they were so tiny you could get 15-20 of them onto your little finger nail and nearly needed a microscope to read the polarity]. It worked, with the exception of a reversing switch for the lights. I have to fiddle around using a mechanical mechanism working off the reverse switch and that is not an easily reproduced in the tiny space available on that 3080 Loco.

The other thing I have been pondering, is if two pickup shoes were used on the master carriage, would that reduce the flicker effect.

Dereck
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä
Offline Minok  
#124 Posted : 07 June 2019 00:47:07(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,929
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
indeed, but how would I measure that? And how long are the power drops on my layout? And how often...?

Certainly the coach with 470uF capacitor and 430 Ohm resistor seems solid on my layout so far.


To capture that data would indeed be arduous and require building a test rig if you wanted to be precise and get a large amount of data.

A photo sensor reading then brightness of the led lighting is captured via a analog-digital capture card. Then you also have a timing circuit (well a computer clock) and a relay that is computer controlled ( many methods from serial to usb/arduino et al). You also need the voltage to be computer controlled . Then you write software to test: set the voltage, let the cap fullly charge, cut power (record time) and record brightness of led with time stamps. Presumably you can see in the data when the brightness gets below a threshold of your choosing. For each of the voltage levels (manually set it programmatically set) you can then capture a “time till it’s not bright enough anymore “.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
Offline DaleSchultz  
#125 Posted : 07 June 2019 00:49:01(UTC)
DaleSchultz


Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,994
well yes, perhaps I should have added the word "practically" :-)

Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by DaleSchultz
Offline DaleSchultz  
#126 Posted : 07 June 2019 00:51:17(UTC)
DaleSchultz


Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,994
multiple pickup shoes would work yes, but if you are running a train across boosters then this would short circuit the boosters.

can you take some pics of your wiring? I have not yet done that part.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by DaleSchultz
Offline dominator  
#127 Posted : 08 June 2019 06:20:15(UTC)
dominator

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 711
Location: Kerikeri
Hope you mean these.
DSC01641.JPG
DSC01642.JPG
DSC01643.JPG

I haven't worked out how to fasten the wires to the bogies yet but I don't think that will be difficult.
I did have a look at some of the later close coupled, 8 wheeler couches but think I will leave them alone at this stage. I couldn't get the body off the frame without putting too much force on the middle area so left them alone. I'll stick with the older metal ones for now.

DSC01646.JPG
DSC01644.JPG
My design for securing pickup shoes to the bogies. Solid fixing and reliable.
DSC01645.JPG

Dereck
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#128 Posted : 08 June 2019 19:23:43(UTC)
DaleSchultz


Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,994
Thanks for the pics.
I am hoping to use smaller wires, and I only need two.
Can the plug be seen from the side when on track?

Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline dominator  
#129 Posted : 09 June 2019 00:35:34(UTC)
dominator

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 711
Location: Kerikeri
If the connector is secured between the wheels it wont be seen. Also, those wires don't stand out unless you get really close [The carriages are quite close together.] so I would suggest running both wires on the same side. Just make sure you leave enough for when they are "stretched " to their utmost. I would even allow a little movement in the wires in the next bogie and after they come through the hole in the carriage, bend them towards the end of the carriage and allow them to be free. Those wires aren't too big, and if you are concerned about flexibility, you will see that there is not a lot of movement when set up properly.. If you buy the same ones I am getting, they come with the wires attached. Save unnecessary work. I used those 4 wires as an example as I didn't have a 2 wire set. Making a couple of little brackets to hold the wires in each bogie might be tricky Dereck
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä
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