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ESU ECoS track Voltage and other digital systems track voltages
 Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC) Posts: 508 Location: South Dakota
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Guten Abend Leute  , I still consider myself new to the digital world. So please bare with me if my questions seem stupid. Since December (2018) I have been using a ESU ECoS Command Station. It has taken me some time to learn some of the functions and capabilities. I like it, and it is sure better than trying to use index cards or remember digital addresses and functions for numerous locomotives. The system is working fine but I do have a voltage question. When I ran the Uhlenbrock Intellibox the track voltage never got above 18 or 19 volts. But with the ESU ECoS I sometimes see the track voltage go as high as 25 Volts. Now, the ESU ECos has an internal monitor that shows the internal booster voltage and track temperature. Currently my internal booster shows 16 volts and the mutimeter on the track shows 20 volts. I don't understand it. I'm concerned that when I had set the ECoS internal booster to the recommended 18-20 Volts for HO 3 rail systems my track voltage is too high. Because when I set the internal booster to 19 volts I see 25 volts on the multimeter connected to the track. When I run some of the earlier (2000-2004) digital lok's the track voltage drops to 16-18 volts so that seems ok, but if I just have everything idle or run 1 to 2 new digital Lok's the track voltage climbs back up to 25 Volts. Is there something to be concerned about here? or am I chasing my tail?  Shouldn't the internat booster setting equal the actual track voltage? What should be the max track voltage? 20 Volts? I am wondering if this has caused the LED lights in some of the 4228 Rheingold Wagons to burn out. Thanks again in advance, your thoughts and comments are always appreciated. Richard
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Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,278
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You can set the Voltage on the power feeder by use a small screw driver. I recommended 18 volt. |
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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 2 users liked this useful post by Goofy
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 Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,528 Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
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 Originally Posted by: White Buffalo  ...................
Because when I set the internal booster to 19 volts I see 25 volts on the multimeter connected to the track.
............... First of all we need to be sure that you have a multimeter than can measure the digital voltage in "true RMS". If not, we don't really know if your readings are correct. Per. |
If you can dream it, you can do it! I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide. In case this is not legally possible: I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.  |
2 users liked this useful post by Purellum
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Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC) Posts: 508 Location: South Dakota
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Originally Posted by: Goofy You can set the Voltage on the power feeder by use a small screw driver. I recommended 18 volt. Thank you Goofy, I had it set at 19 since December and recently reduced it to 16. I will set it to 18 V according to the reading on the command station. The smoke generators burn much better st this voltage that at 16 , that’s for sure. Originally Posted by: Purellum First of all we need to be sure that you have a multimeter than can measure the digital voltage in "true RMS". If not, we don't really know if your readings are correct. Per. vielen Dank Purellum. It is not a digital multimeter, so I am not reading “true RMS”. This is good to know, I did read somewhere in the instructions book or on ESU’s website that you can not compare the digital ESU track voltage with the voltage seen on an “off the shelf” automotive multimeter.
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Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC) Posts: 508 Location: South Dakota
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Do the older (year 1999-2002) digital lok’s use more power than the newer digital locomotives?
Also, what is the voltage operating range for Märklin HO digital Lok‘s?
Besten Dank gentlemen,
Rich
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Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,278
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Märklins old digital locomotive can be use between 16-18 volt. Smoke generator works best at 16 volt if you have analog smoke generator. |
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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2 users liked this useful post by Goofy
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 Joined: 06/07/2012(UTC) Posts: 1,320
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1 user liked this useful post by michelvr
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Joined: 09/02/2010(UTC) Posts: 234
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Track voltage of Marklin old analog system is maximum 16 Vrms AC, sinewave of 50Hz or 60Hz depending on your electricity source. This voltage can be measured using ordinary multi-meter. The track voltage of Marklin digital is 18 Vrms AC, square wave, the frequency is variable depending the modulation of its digital protocol. Ordinary multi-meter may not be able to accurately measure square wave AC, especially at frequency higher than its limit (multi-meter has certain AC frequency range it can measure within tolerable accuracy. Cheap multi-meter is usually accurate below 100Hz only. Some expensive multimeter may be able to get accurate reading till 1KHz). Below is the graphical representation of Marklin track voltage:  Below is the rms figure of several waveforms:  For those who curious to know more about AC voltage measurement accuracy on different multimeter, may read this: https://meettechniek.info/multimeter-avo/measurement-deviation.html
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4 users liked this useful post by tiono
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Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC) Posts: 508 Location: South Dakota
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Excellent information.
Danke sehr Michelvr for the link.
Tausend Dank tiono for the detailed description. That explains why my multimeter can not be used to monitor actual track voltage from the ECoS Command Station.
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Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,446
Location: DE-NW
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Hi! Originally Posted by: michelvr Goofy is correct, 18 volts is right on the money! Not really. A Märklin CU 6021 provides a track voltage of around 22 V. And when you check the bottom of the box of a modern Märklin loco you will see "22 V ~" which indicates the maximum allowed digital track voltage. |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS  |
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Joined: 06/07/2012(UTC) Posts: 1,320
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Originally Posted by: H0 Hi! Originally Posted by: michelvr Goofy is correct, 18 volts is right on the money! Not really. A Märklin CU 6021 provides a track voltage of around 22 V. And when you check the bottom of the box of a modern Märklin loco you will see "22 V ~" which indicates the maximum allowed digital track voltage. I stand corrected. 
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 Joined: 20/08/2018(UTC) Posts: 157 Location: Geneve, Geneva
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The specs of various decoders I've checked indicate max voltages of 40V (Marklin mSD3), 27/40V (LokPilot 4), 40V (LokSound 4), 30/35V (Zimo).
NMRA also indicates a 22V max operating voltage, with at last 27V supported by the decoders of HO scale or larger. This is track voltage, so power supply should be set some 2V higher to get this effect.
In principle higher voltage would imply lower currents (for the same operating characteristics). It should also help with less than optimal wiring (long tracks, thin wires etc).
NEM 641 indicates a _minimal_ value of 15V (+/- 10%) for the DC power supply of digital systems. NEM 609 has a _maximal_ AC track voltage of 24V, for safety reasons.
All the above taken into consideration I've switched to a 20V power supply and didn't look back since.
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JMRI on RPi & DCC++ / C-track / Marklin, Roco, ESU, Bemo locos / Christmas car collector |
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Joined: 09/02/2010(UTC) Posts: 234
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Voltages on Marklin systems:
Power supply Between tracks (as seen by locomotive's decoder)
Marklin analog 16 Vrms AC 16 Vrms AC ( 45.2 V peak to peak )
Marklin early digital 16 Vrms AC 22 Vrms AC ( 44 V peak to peak )
Marklin modern digital 19 V DC 18 Vrms AC ( 36 V peak to peak )
The power of Marklin early digital (Delta & 6021) is supplied by transformer in AC, the same as analog, therefore the output at track will resemble the rectified voltage of the transformer (which is 22.6V DC minus the drop voltage on rectifier, so approx 22V).
While the modern Marklin digital (CS & MS) is supplied by switched power supply in DC. 19V instead of 22V, thus the output will be approx 18V (after factoring the drop at internal components).
Track voltage can be increased without problem as long as the corresponding electronics (decoder & controller) are able to handle. Just make sure that you look at the spec carefully whether it is Vrms or Vpp.
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Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC) Posts: 508 Location: South Dakota
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Thank you everybody for your input. This leads me to my next question. I have had the LED lights in two of the Märklin 4228 Rheingold passenger wagons quit operating recently. Both within a couple of days of each other. I need to try to see if I can determine the LEDs voltage operating range. I am wondering if this is just a coincidence that both wagons went out at the same time or am I dealing with a power issue.
tiono, i have no idea what Vrms or Vpp are. Could you explain?
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Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,528 Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
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Originally Posted by: White Buffalo i have no idea what Vrms or Vpp are. Could you explain? Just follow this link: http://bfy.tw/Nm0NPer. |
If you can dream it, you can do it! I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide. In case this is not legally possible: I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law. |
1 user liked this useful post by Purellum
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Joined: 09/02/2010(UTC) Posts: 234
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Originally Posted by: White Buffalo
tiono, i have no idea what Vrms or Vpp are. Could you explain?
V rms = effective voltage if the whole AC signal is converted to DC V pp = the differential voltage between highest positive swing and negative swing.  The track voltage in all HO scale digital model train today is AC. Even in DCC system, the track voltage continuously switch its polarity, so it is actually AC.
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1 user liked this useful post by tiono
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Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,319 Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
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Was the "early digital" not the digital signal modulated on top of the sinusoidal AC power ?
A massive source of mislead is that DCC (which is Digital Command Control) has nothing to do with DC (direct current) power. Converting a locomotive from DC operations (where true DC power drives it) to DCC, also converts the power on the track from DC to AC (square wave but AC none the less), plus the encoded digital data in that AC signal.
Its why the usage of outdated terminology such as DC and AC wheelsets is just wrong and misleading; with modern mfx/DCC/MM its ALL AC. |
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Joined: 09/02/2010(UTC) Posts: 234
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Originally Posted by: Minok Was the "early digital" not the digital signal modulated on top of the sinusoidal AC power ?
"Marklin early digital", for example: 6021 controller, is supplied by 16V AC transformer. Inside the 6021, this AC signal is rectified to +22.6V DC and -22.6V DC. The controller then work on those DC voltage, switch it as according to MM protocol modulation. Thus the electrical output is the same as Marklin "modern digital" albeit higher voltage. Therefore both of them are compatible; Delta/c80/c90 locomotive can run on the modern digital lay out and vice versa.
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4 users liked this useful post by tiono
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Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,446
Location: DE-NW
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Originally Posted by: Minok Was the "early digital" not the digital signal modulated on top of the sinusoidal AC power? Where does that come from? I read this several times on this forum, posted by one member. Neither Märklin digital (6020, 6021) nor Märklin Delta ever worked this way. Maybe other systems for multi-train operation worked that way. |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS |
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Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,446
Location: DE-NW
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Originally Posted by: tiono Thus the electrical output is the same as Marklin "modern digital" albeit higher voltage. In the early days Central Station and Central Station were operated with 16 V AC and also had the high voltage. OTOH there is a DIP switch on the 6021 that reduces the track voltage. Thus you can get the low voltage of "modern digital" with a 6021 and you can get the high voltage of "early digital" with a CS2. |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS |
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 Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC) Posts: 14,875 Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
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Richard if you use ESU decoders and you are an owner of a Lokprogrammer you can adjust the smoke unit voltage, at standstill, while running at minimum heat and maximum heat.
John |
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1 user liked this useful post by river6109
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Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC) Posts: 508 Location: South Dakota
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Originally Posted by: river6109 Richard if you use ESU decoders and you are an owner of a Lokprogrammer you can adjust the smoke unit voltage, at standstill, while running at minimum heat and maximum heat.
John Thank you John. I do have the Lokprogrammer 5 and I have just started to play with that option. I see that ESU makes a smoke unit as well, there are quite a few more programming options available for the ESU brand smoke generator. But is this for HO scale or the larger Märklin 1?
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ESU ECoS track Voltage and other digital systems track voltages
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