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Offline John Ferguson  
#1 Posted : 11 February 2019 19:48:04(UTC)
John Ferguson

United Kingdom   
Joined: 22/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 43
Location: Essex
The problem I have is that where I have used a track sensor to trigger the reduced speed for a train under automatic control, another train manually controlled passing over the same sensor will cause the automatic train to run again.

It appears that the track sensor is not solely reserved for the train under automatic control.

Can I have some help please to solve this problem.

John
Offline MaerklinLife  
#2 Posted : 11 February 2019 22:27:36(UTC)
MaerklinLife


Joined: 03/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 399
Originally Posted by: John Ferguson Go to Quoted Post
It appears that the track sensor is not solely reserved for the train under automatic control.

Can I have some help please to solve this problem.

Correct. A sensor is a sensor, it does not care what activates it. If it is activated, the CS will perform what ever event you assigned the sensor to. If that means stopping a particular train, that will happen, no matter what activates the sensor.

It is by design and you can't really do anything about it.

If you have a CS3 you can limit the problem. On the CS3 you can check if the train you want to slow down is actually moving, and then only if that is the case, you can slow the train down. That way the train will not begin to move, unless it is moving in the first place.

It does not change that the event will be triggered by what ever activates the sensor. But it does prevent the train from moving if it is stopped.
Offline clapcott  
#3 Posted : 12 February 2019 03:15:17(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,149
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: MaerklinLife Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: John Ferguson Go to Quoted Post
It appears that the track sensor is not solely reserved for the train under automatic control.

Can I have some help please to solve this problem.

..... A sensor is a sensor, it does not care what activates it.
True

Quote:
If it is activated, the CS will perform what ever event you assigned the sensor to. ....
Partial true.

When a sensor i triggered, the CS will check for events that are configured to use that sensor AND whether they have an enabled condition
The CS2 memory allowed for multiple conditions, The CS3 only one

However the CS3 has internal logic that the CS2 does not (one step forward 2 steps back)

Quote:
It is by design and you can't really do anything about it.
Not true.

I believe that once you appreciate that a Sensor is not directly and uniquely linked to the running of any single event, you may conceive numerous ways to replicate a true block system whereby a) a sensor is active Yes/No and b) which mode your environment is in (which loco is in a block), in order to direct specific instructions to specific situations.

To aid this you may even switch the sensor, via a relay, to different sensor ports.

I am not saying this is trivial, however there is a degree of complexity that can be managed at this level before you feel forced to jump to using a PC for its more elaborate layout tracking and control.

The new CS3 logic functions are helpful (in over coming external relay control of S88 ports).
What I was hoping for was a register pool to allow loading and tracking of a locomotive in a dynamic way.
Peter
Offline MaerklinLife  
#4 Posted : 12 February 2019 04:19:12(UTC)
MaerklinLife


Joined: 03/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 399
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
Partial true.

When a sensor i triggered, the CS will check for events that are configured to use that sensor AND whether they have an enabled condition

No, true. As I wrote, although I did specify any condition. The sensor might as well be set to a diabled condition, it will still be the trigger of the event, except this time when the train leaves. The same goes: It does not matter which train it is.
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
Not true.

I believe that once you appreciate that a Sensor is not directly and uniquely linked to the running of any single event, you may conceive numerous ways to replicate a true block system whereby a) a sensor is active Yes/No and b) which mode your environment is in (which loco is in a block), in order to direct specific instructions to specific situations.

Yes, true. I don’t agree with my statement being “not true”. While it is true that you can take measures to TRY and prevent, there is no way that you can design a set of events that can not some how be confused by a rogue train doing something that was not intended. That is what I meant, feedback works by either there is something on the track or not. Even the computer guesses the position of the trains on the basis of a know origin and movements.

If you want to be able to drive around manually amongst your automatic trains, you are in for a challenge.

Only systems like Railcom can give you true positions of the trains. Sadly that is not an option with the CS3.
Offline clapcott  
#5 Posted : 12 February 2019 05:10:34(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,149
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: MaerklinLife Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
Partial true.

When a sensor i triggered, the CS will check for events that are configured to use that sensor AND whether they have an enabled condition

No, true. As I wrote, although I did specify any condition. The sensor might as well be set to a diabled condition, it will still be the trigger of the event, except this time when the train leaves. The same goes: It does not matter which train it is.


I do not understand what you are saying.
I am referring to the Event condition (Ok "Control") of the trigger, not a condition that may be set as part of the action string within that events definition.
UserPostedImage
Peter
Offline MaerklinLife  
#6 Posted : 12 February 2019 06:16:16(UTC)
MaerklinLife


Joined: 03/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 399
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
I do not understand what you are saying.
I am referring to the Event condition (Ok "Control") of the trigger, not a condition that may be set as part of the action string within that events definition.

I was referring to the "Position" setting of the screenshot that you show. Of course, you can set control contacts that will prevent triggering the event if these conditions are not meat. I do that myself, it works very well, and, true, it can help trying to prevent things from happening.

My point was: At the end of the day, it does not change the fact that the CS does not know what train passes over a sensor. It is the way the system is designed. And - currently anyway - there is no way to change that. Yes, there are work arounds, but they will never completely prevent weird things from happening if you grap a train and blast around the layout manually.

That being said, we might be in for something interesting in the future. The new version of the CS3 contains a feature to set the state of a contact (or other article) to be the location of a train. Currently limited to showing a trains location on the track plan. I imagine that it could be expanded on to have events triggered by a contact being set, and depending on which train it is set to contain, can perform something with that train - otherwise not. Anyway, new features, new options. It will be interesting to follow.
Offline John Ferguson  
#7 Posted : 12 February 2019 09:34:44(UTC)
John Ferguson

United Kingdom   
Joined: 22/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 43
Location: Essex
Originally Posted by: MaerklinLife Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
I do not understand what you are saying.
I am referring to the Event condition (Ok "Control") of the trigger, not a condition that may be set as part of the action string within that events definition.

I was referring to the "Position" setting of the screenshot that you show. Of course, you can set control contacts that will prevent triggering the event if these conditions are not meat. I do that myself, it works very well, and, true, it can help trying to prevent things from happening.

My point was: At the end of the day, it does not change the fact that the CS does not know what train passes over a sensor. It is the way the system is designed. And - currently anyway - there is no way to change that. Yes, there are work arounds, but they will never completely prevent weird things from happening if you grap a train and blast around the layout manually.

That being said, we might be in for something interesting in the future. The new version of the CS3 contains a feature to set the state of a contact (or other article) to be the location of a train. Currently limited to showing a trains location on the track plan. I imagine that it could be expanded on to have events triggered by a contact being set, and depending on which train it is set to contain, can perform something with that train - otherwise not. Anyway, new features, new options. It will be interesting to follow.


Thank you both for your comments. It has enabled me to understand more clearly what is going on.

I will abandon the idea of mixing automatic and manual control for the time being.

Bearing in mind that more than one train will be passing a sensor I will try a trigger for each train on that sensor and look into control of the trigger.

John
Offline John Ferguson  
#8 Posted : 12 February 2019 18:10:13(UTC)
John Ferguson

United Kingdom   
Joined: 22/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 43
Location: Essex
Originally Posted by: John Ferguson Go to Quoted Post
The problem I have is that where I have used a track sensor to trigger the reduced speed for a train under automatic control, another train manually controlled passing over the same sensor will cause the automatic train to run again.

It appears that the track sensor is not solely reserved for the train under automatic control.

Can I have some help please to solve this problem.

John


Peter

In your view of the screen you show what appears to be 2 sensors K1 and K3 where I can only put one sensor. Can you explain how you achieve this please?

John
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