I think the so-called "1:93,5" coaches look worse than Märklin's so-called "1:100" coaches.
The multi-colour interior of Roco coaches looks much better - but yes, you don't see much of the interior when a train is driving, but some details can be noticed.

The symbol "1:93,5" is also used for items in 1:95 and 1:97.
The symbol "1:100" is used for items ranging from about 1:98 to about 1:102.

Märklin also make coaches in 1:87, even with a length of 303 mm. The interior details of those coaches show the same simplifications as the shortened coaches.

I don't have to quarrel about it, its a simple and was a simple answer for me: Märklin doesn't produce 1:87 passenger carriages so I bought them from Roco, Märklin didn't produce multiprotocol digital decoders at one stage: so I bought ESU decoders, Märklin didn't produce certain Austrian, Swiss, BLS and French locos so I bought locos from HAG and Roco.

end of the story.

John

It is a simple answer for me as well. The issue of coach length goes out the window when you operate on R1 and R2 curves . I for one would like Marklin to produce 22.4 cm " silberlinge " passenger cars . To each his own .

Tex

Scale length coaches look silly on small layouts like mine. My preferred compromise is 1:100 coaches.

The other issues with the colour of interior details I can live with. The day I can't I'll buy little tins of model paint....

I understand the point of people who prefer shorter scale because of R1 but still... Frankly speaking the Marklin scale for longer passenger cars doesn't make any sense, I mean, Marklin I think make the best goods wagons, the best 1:87 passenger coaches (and of course the best and strongest locomotives) but it is really bad when it comes to longer passenger coaches, I mean, sets like 42756, 42269 and 43194 where so bad looking that it was really hard to make them run... I'm not a rivet counter but I frankly believe that trains should still looks fine, if the difference is too big they becomes ugly.

Here you see a picture comparing the Insider Silberling (1:93.5) from last year with a tin plate Silberling car (1:100 or so - did not check it) from the sixties.



and here are coaches from Märklin with a scale 1:87.

https://www.maerklin.de/...s/details/article/42615/

What shall I say, they all look good on my tracks and they are all from Märklin and I like them. Do not really understand the problems.

More of interest for me are the details of both Silberlinge. The new one seems to be less detailed as the old one. Just compare the door handle of both on the picture. I think the ones on the older car are better as the doorknobs on the Insider-set one.

If I may digress from the topic slightly. Someone has suggested that if Marklin don't make it, or you don't like it, then buy from someone else.

I've recently been told from Frank Mayer, that because I keep complaining about having to return Marklin products under warranty, he's not going to service my products anymore. My gripe with Marklin is that their electronics are poor and I'm sending locos back for repairs regularly. So I don't like Marklin and I'm buying from elsewhere. If everyone adopts this reasoning, Marklin might wake up and go back to producing the quality products they used to produce.

I didn't want to make a fuss, I just wanted to know your opinion like this, if most of people prefer the lenght of Marklin coaches I respect it, I just wanted to check if it was only me who model Marklin and prefers 1:87 coach or not.

One could also say: There is nothing wrong with the Märklin coaches, unless you make it a problem.

Opinions, opinions, there is no correct answer.

Yes, as I said. My point exactly.


Yeah, but if they really do not see a problem? Then what? Some times people just do not agree with you. That's life.


Actually: I don't think so. Personally, when I see the "1:93,5" logo I think: Oh the longer length version and not the 1:100 version. I don't think: "Oh, I'll just check the scale and see if Märklin made an error and then obsess about it until end of time, and never fail to mention it every time somebody writes about the coaches". I really don't.

Here is the thing: The coaches are models of a prototype, compromises were made, and one compromise is the length. This was done for some historic reason. It does not make it less of a model than any other product.

Exactly. Some dont like Marklin and buy elsewhere but still complain about Marklin because they dont make what they want.

As for interiors as Ray says this is a hobby so whats wrong with painting your interior the way you want it.

If I want something Marklin dont make then I will look at Brawa as there era one and two stuff is pretty good and for me have far better detail than any other.. I did buy a couple of Piko coaches and enjoyed doing up the interior and they run well.

I can understand why Maerklin compromised and rendered the WRmz with the same length as the rest of the coaches (282mm). This is the 1/97 model that Tom refers to. The actual Speisewagen coach is longer than the regular compartment and seating cars.
Personally, this is the type of compromise that I can live with. My train has a restaurant to go with the matching coaches. I can understand that a UIC coach with a length of 300mm (WRmz in 1/93) would have potential issues with switch markers, catenary masts and tunnel portals, just to name a few risks.

Where I take great umbrage is when one of the engineers/designers takes the measurements of the actual coach and is supposed to transfer them to 1/93.5 (length) and 1/87 in all other aspects. This means that the coach should have the same height and width as the exact scale coaches, but should be reduced in scale length. The problem occurs when the ratios are not respected. For example, the windows should be rendered in 1/87 for height, but should be rendered in 1/93.5 to accommodate the scale length of the coach. Failure to do this can result in the windows not having the right aspect in the final model. Examples of this at the 42972 https://www.maerklin.de/...s/details/article/42972/ or the 43874 https://www.maerklin.de/...s/details/article/43874/

In both of these cases, the windows do not extend to the correct height and this discrepancy becomes painfully visible when paired with coaches that have a more correct appearance.

Here is a photo of the 42973 type (from 42991) and the same type coach from the more recent 26557 Bavaria set with correct height aspect:


Like in movie and TV series, Maerklin needs to have employees to look after continuity. To ensure that new models have the same or the closest rendering to other models with which that coach/car would normally be operated with.

Regards

Mike C

How many of the trains that are running on layouts have actually been observed in person by the layout owner? In many cases they haven't. The scale issue is a state of mind. Children play together with toys and objects that are totally out of scale with each other. Doesn't seem to bother them. As we get older we get more "precise" in our view of the world but perhaps less playful.

Regards,
Roger

Some time ago I compared Aüm coaches of different lengths.

This picture shows three Märklin cars and a Roco car:

The second and the fourth window look as I expect them to look (two bars of the door frame showing). One might argue that the third window shows a compartment with closed curtains, but the edges are not parallel and the Preiserlings cannot look out of the Window and are less visible from the outside.
Prototype has a 3:4 aspect ratio of the windows.

A close-up of the Roco coach:


Images from this thread:
https://www.marklin-user...lin-Length-Scale-Mystery
IMHO the 1:93.5 coach is the worst with respect to interior details, details under the frame of the coach, and aspect ratio of the windows.

For the first time in all my modelling years I now have to look at what size or shape windows are lol.


Why do we think that paying 30/50 euros for a coach is going to give us an exact replica of the original. I agree some maybe better than others but this is a plastic toy that us big kids play with. Locos are a bit different and for what we pay we expect a reasonable if not perfect copy of the original.

My coaches look good and run well although my passengers have a major operation before sitting on the seats. Maybe I should start a thread on are the seats wrong scale or the Preisers are wrong. I am grateful that I can still buy the model rail goods and hopefully the manufacturers will be able to continue into the future.

Exactly how I see it. Which usually means Märklin coaches are no option for me, bit I do like their goods wagons and sometimes their locomotives. I think it comes down in what you seek in your hobby: realistic representation or optimised playtime. It’s nice that the market offers us the possibility to make a choice.

Regards

Rinus

Edited by moderator 27 January 2019 03:06:48(UTC)  | Reason: Fixed quote tags

Funny what you are stating in here. For a 1:93 or so (275mm length) Märklin SBB Driving Trailer type EW IV (Märklin 42179) you pay about 90 Euro's, according to Märklin. That is the UVP. The Roco EW IV Driving Trailer (Roco 74399) has a UPV of 81,90 Euros. So, the on scale, better detailed, Roco, is in fact even cheaper as the Märklin.
For an average ACME 1:87 carriage, you pay something between 60 and 70 euros. For an average, new series, Märklin carriage, you pay something about 50 or 60 euros.

I'm an era 5/6 user. Specificly the Alps. I decided to change over to 1:87 carriages last year. The variation of carriages is way bigger (Regiojet is only in 1:87, CityNightLine and ÖBB's Nightjet? Only 1:87 Specific service carriages for IC services? Same). When I get the chance, I only use C Rail R3, 4 and 5. I have a bunch of R2 and R1, R1 is almost never used, R2 rarely. Tom (H0) knows how the lay-outs are build during Tischbahning. I'm secretly hoping for a R6 addition as well. That would make it possible to build 4 tracks wide lay-outs with only long turnouts.

And so there are more things I can't understand the way Märklin does. They developed a mould for the Siemens ES64U4, the Taurus 3 Type Reihe 1216/BR183/SZ541/EU44. But, they only made 2 colour schemes: The ÖBB and the Adria. Märklin has the ALEX Sets with an Eurorunner, take 2 pantographs of the roof, change the roof lay out and paint the loko in the Alex Br 183colours. Take a normal 4 pantograph ES64U4 and paint it in SZ541 red or in the Polish EU44 colours. A lot of variations to make. There are 117 locomotives build which are running for 15 or 16 different companies, of which some are often used together: SZ and ÖBB, SLB, Adria, LTE and Cargoserv. Take advantage of it, think more commercially. I was hoping for years for more Märklin Tauri (the Slovenian SZ541 was really high on my wish list, but I only found one last December). In the end, I ended up buying Roco's, which I in fact even better like.
It seems that they have changed this behaviour with the Vectron series, which is good, for both fans and financial reasons.

And I like Märklin, don't get me wrong. They are smart enough. When you are using C rail and really getting know the system, you'll find out that all sizes are not randomly chosen. The C rail system is, in fact, pretty well engineered. It has some gaps, but what is already possible is kinda great. It is pretty nice to discover new possibilities every time.

Laurent

Hi Laurent,
Many of us here just love C track, and are always keen to to see different applications.
If you have any ideas about smart use of C track, please feel free to post them in this topic.
https://www.marklin-user...s--uses--and-innovations

Did you know that the radii used in model trains is just most unrealistic.
But Maerklin get it to work so well.
A main line in real life is usually a minimum 800m radius, which equates to 9.24 metres in HO scale.
Whereas Maerklin's largest curve is the 24912, or R9, which is 1.114 metres.
That is only 12% of what it should be to be a realistic 1:87.

So in my opinion the length of HO scale locos, wagons or coaches is not as important as the ability for them to operate on toy train curves.

regards
Kimball

Everybody can make their own choice but looking at cost I don't pay anything as much as stated above for Marklin coaches but I suppose it depends where you buy. Piko can supply coaches for 30/40 Euros and the two I have are pretty good.

Basically if you don't like the scale of a Marklin coach then don't buy it and that way you wont need to complain about it.

As Kimball says running on toy train curves and running well is more important.

People often calculate the exact scale of the old 24 cm tin plate coaches or the 27 cm plastic coaches of the 1970s and early 1980s, but Märklin didn't work it out that way. Their calculation was based on percentages, not scale. The tin plate passenger cars are about 20 per cent shorter than a 1:87 model would be, whereas the 27 cm cars are only about 10 per cent shorter. A few years down the road, Märklin switched to the scale of 1:100 for most coaches, i.e. 26.4 cm.

Märklin actually started making 1:87 DB and DRG coaches back in the late 1970s, but that scale was restricted to the shorter prewar coaches.Trix produced some 1:87 coaches before the insolvency, e.g. the French and Belgian TEE consists that were also sold as Märklin models, and around the same time Märklin launched 1:93.5 coaches.

I guess it's a mess, but the problem is that Märklin still has a lot of customers who built their layouts with R1/R2 curves a few decades ago, and even younger customers who used C-tracks might also have R1 and R2 due to lack of space. I once bought a few 1:93.5 coaches and found that even on R3 curves, they didn't look good. On top of that, a few small parts (i.e. steps) had not been mounted, and that's something I really don't like.

Personally, I've never liked the short 24cm coaches on layouts. I had some as a child, but I preferred the 27cm ones. I remember seeing some full-length Ade coaches in a shop once. Those looked great. 1:100 is OK for me because there is a wide choice of second-hand Märklin coaches at lower prices. What's a pity about Märklin's coaches is not the scale, but the fact that there are so many types of coaches that Märklin has never made. Recently, I bought a magazine about DB holiday trains that used to take German travellers to their holiday destinations. There were pictures of DB consists, but virtually none of them could have been formed with Märklin coaches.

Best regards,

Mark

I think people here should have the right to write what they buy and what they do not buy - and why.

Some folks do not buy ESU controllers because Märklin makes their tracks and therefor they only buy Märklin controllers. Fine.
Some folks do not buy coaches at reduced length, no matter which brand makes them.

People receive more applause here if they write why they do buy Märklin or why they don't buy Roco. That's the mainstream here. But IMHO other opinions should also be allowed here.

R6 would be a dream for me too. Although I fear that it will also remain that way - just a dream.

Exactly Miguel!

For me what motor is installed in each loco is a really big question and one that Märklin needs to be much more forthcoming about. If they chose cheap disposable motors for their pretty locos they should at least have the integrity to tell us. Maybe they could also supply the item number for the same motor from a higher quality source that they rejected due to cost.

We all know places to buy the high quality motors that these models deserve and if we are committed enough we will just need to upgrade them when the cheap motors fail. Unfortunately that seems to be how things are in the MRR world these days, as we are told to be grateful that it is still here at all.

And I'd love to spend an extra $40 on a loco if it means I get a great motor and don't have to upgrade at all.

IMO an upgrade is a fix to a much bigger quality problem in the first place. I love that Märklin have done away with the noisy motor of the old days, but I think they get away with using el cheapo motors that is the source of so many problems. I have at least 4 engines sitting on the desk needing new motors.

The problem is usually that the motor is unstable. It does not run very well and is making weird noises (yes, I am aware of the irony). If the motor is good, this does not happen. I know that if I order a sparepart from Märklin, I will most likely get a motor that works. But why do it has to be this way, why this "motor lottery"?

Never had I ever had to replace a motor from Roco. Ever. So I don't really care much for "we cannot manufacture it any other way". Yes you can, the others can, so can you. Just buy a more expensive component, people don't care the model cost $10 more, if it works like a charm, they will be happy.

Do I hesitate to buy a Märklin model because I am afraid that I might waste my money? Yes, I actually do. Do Roco or PIKO get my money instead? Yes, they do. Would they if Märklin used better components, I don't think so.

The first link is to some school of some sort? I don't get it. Waaaaay too complicated.

The SB Modellbau kits? 80 EUR for a replacement motor to a (at some point) 150 EUR loco? No thank you.


Here is the thing:
Creating upgrade kits and having drop-in replacements at hand is not cheap. You need to stock the things, you need to have some sort of idea on how many customers would actually buy it, and then you need to design and manufacture the kits for every single model in question.

The motor house may look the same and it may have the same measurements, but the inside components are very different with each model. All the 36xxx locos have motors that look the same, but take a closer look, almost every motor is different. It may be that they have only axles in one end, it may be that they have different flywheels. Each with its own sparepart number. The flywheel needs to be insanely precise on the axle, you can't expect the average modeller to pull it off a sparepart and attach it to a new one. Most people don't know how to do this properly, and most people won't have the correct tooling for the task. They will destroy the parts in their attempt to pull the flywheel off.

For Märklin it would be a catastrophic nightmare to maintain stock of upgrade kits for all these models. Simply because the models were not designed in a way that took this into account. That is why upgrade kits will most likely never happen. That is also why SB Modellbau, besides being the only one making these kits thus having a monopoly, are so expensive. The customer demand is simply too small.

The cheapest solution is for Märklin to buy better components and raise the prices a bit to compensate. That would be doable, and I bet that it would make 95% of the customers happy. That is: 95% of the customers that complain in the first place, which is probably less than 10% of the total, meaning that Märklin would probably not care much about what I am saying anyway... just my thoughts.

Point: None of the above will most likely never happen. Märklin will continue with the current motors, because the majority of customers don't care or don't notice.