Joined: 02/08/2014(UTC) Posts: 789 Location: NEW JERSEY, USA
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Hello, I may be able to purchase some nice Liliput wagons from I'm guessing 1980-90 ish vintage. Usually I stay away from anything other than Marklin because of derailment issues etc. I don't want to mess with changing wheels and so on. Does anyone have any experience with these on M-track?? Or should I not bother?
Thanks
Mikey |
I love the smell of smoke fluid in the morning . |
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Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC) Posts: 8,245 Location: Montreal, QC
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I have a number of older Liliput models from the 1970s/1980s and have not experienced significant problems. I have had more issues with select models since the acquisition of Liliput by Herpa and then ultimately Bachmann. The Liliput coaches/cars have sufficient weight and can be used on M Track. Where you have to pay attention is that if you have a number of lighter cars in a consist with heavier cars in the rear of the train, that the drag can cause the lighter cars to tip. For this reason, it is always better to have the lightest cars at the rear of the consist.
Regards
Mike C
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 3 users liked this useful post by mike c
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Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC) Posts: 2,883 Location: South Western France
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Originally Posted by: analogmike  Hello, I may be able to purchase some nice Liliput wagons from I'm guessing 1980-90 ish vintage. Usually I stay away from anything other than Marklin because of derailment issues etc. I don't want to mess with changing wheels and so on. Does anyone have any experience with these on M-track?? Or should I not bother?
Thanks
Mikey I have struggled with non-Mârklin rolling stock for a long time (particularly with Liliput, because I found them so nice at the time, but I could never get them to work properly..) , until I found the solution to 99.5% of the cases. All you need is to adjust the (inner) spacing betweeen flanges to the Märklin spec of 13.8 mm . That simple. You need a Gauge Fohrmann HO gauge and a mini wheel press/puller Mini wheel spacer/pressThat's it. Anything else may be trouble with the bogies or coupling mechanisms, but that is not Märklin specific! Good luck Cheers Jacques |
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success! |
 9 users liked this useful post by jvuye
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Joined: 05/11/2017(UTC) Posts: 21 Location: England, Rotherham
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Originally Posted by: jvuye  Originally Posted by: analogmike  Hello, I may be able to purchase some nice Liliput wagons from I'm guessing 1980-90 ish vintage. Usually I stay away from anything other than Marklin because of derailment issues etc. I don't want to mess with changing wheels and so on. Does anyone have any experience with these on M-track?? Or should I not bother?
Thanks
Mikey I have struggled with non-Mârklin rolling stock for a long time (particularly with Liliput, because I found them so nice at the time, but I could never get them to work properly..) , until I found the solution to 99.5% of the cases. All you need is to adjust the (inner) spacing betweeen flanges to the Märklin spec of 13.8 mm . That simple. You need a Gauge Fohrmann HO gauge and a mini wheel press/puller Mini wheel spacer/pressThat's it. Anything else may be trouble with the bogies or coupling mechanisms, but that is not Märklin specific! Good luck Cheers Jacques Is it the same with C-track?
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 1 user liked this useful post by CTD81
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Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC) Posts: 1,204 Location: Kerikeri
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Another thing to be aware of is the riding width of the Marklin wheel is wider than some of the other makes [ some Roco or Trix ], so is you squeeze the wheels together to get the right inside fit, then those wheels can fall in between the rails. The first ones I had trouble with were Lima, which is a product I steer clear of now. My first go at fixing these problems [ before I understood the 2 rail wheels were of a different caliber ] was to tweek the guide rail on the points so that the outer wheel would ride correctly over the track without mounting the rail on the inner curve of the points. [I put photos of my points somewhere on this forum a few years ago ]. I found the points with the plastic guide, didn't need to be corrected [ as someone had asked ]. Things to watch for are all the wheels [ inner spacing and ride width ], and buffers with 8 wheeled coaches where close couplers are used.
If the ride width of any wheel is less than Marklin, then better to go with the Marklin transplant.
Dereck |
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä |
 2 users liked this useful post by dominator
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Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC) Posts: 2,883 Location: South Western France
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Originally Posted by: CTD81  Originally Posted by: jvuye  Originally Posted by: analogmike  Hello, I may be able to purchase some nice Liliput wagons from I'm guessing 1980-90 ish vintage. Usually I stay away from anything other than Marklin because of derailment issues etc. I don't want to mess with changing wheels and so on. Does anyone have any experience with these on M-track?? Or should I not bother?
Thanks
Mikey ..... All you need is to adjust the (inner) spacing betweeen flanges to the Märklin spec of 13.8 mm . That simple. .... Jacques Is it the same with C-track? Basically yes, although C-track seem to be a little more tolerant. I always test run the unchanged vehicle and if there are derailment or "shaky behaviour" on switches , I just re-adjust the wheels' spacing. In addition C-track seem to tolerate the NMRA RP25 wheels fairly well. Cheers Jacques |
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success! |
 2 users liked this useful post by jvuye
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Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC) Posts: 15,871 Location: Gibraltar, Europe
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I have many Lilliput wagons, and in every case I have found that replacing the wheels with the Lilliput AC equivalents solves all problems. The wheel sets are cheap and very easy to swap. I find it's not worth the effort of trying to measure and adjust the back-to-back dimensions of the existing wheels.
I find the same is true for Piko wagons. Roco, Jouef, Lima, and Rivarossi wagons run OK with their original wheels on my C-track layout. |
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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 2 users liked this useful post by RayF
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Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,467 Location: DE-NW
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I also have the Fohrmann tool. No hassle with measuring for new items: I check the car on a Märklin C Track turnout and if I feel the wheels are to far apart, I take the wheelset out, give it a quarter of a turn with the Fohrmann tool, put a drop of oil on the axle bearings, install the wheelset, then maybe another test on the turnout.
You have to take the wheelset out anyway. Good opportunity to grease the bearings while the wheelsets are out. It takes about one minute to adjust four wheelsets.
Piko have at least three types of wheelsets, Liliput have at least three types of wheelsets. With the tool I don't have to bother with obtaining the correct wheelsets for each car. |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS  |
 4 users liked this useful post by H0
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Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC) Posts: 2,883 Location: South Western France
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Originally Posted by: RayF  I have many Lilliput wagons, and in every case I have found that replacing the wheels with the Lilliput AC equivalents solves all problems. The wheel sets are cheap and very easy to swap. I find it's not worth the effort of trying to measure and adjust the back-to-back dimensions of the existing wheels.
I find the same is true for Piko wagons. Roco, Jouef, Lima, and Rivarossi wagons run OK with their original wheels on my C-track layout. You're totally right Ray! Get the 3 rail wheels on the new vehicle when you can and be done. I wasn't clear maybe, but I was referring to "second hand" equipment, the stuff you find at a swap meet or on the second hand market place. It's not always simple to find the correct 3 rail axles for older stock, so regauging is a good solution then. And inexpensive: once you have the tools, you're set for life! Hope this helps |
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success! |
 5 users liked this useful post by jvuye
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Joined: 23/10/2010(UTC) Posts: 2,061 Location: FRANCE
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You have convinced me !
I have just ordered the Fohrmann tool and gauge now !
It has been a long time Jacques told me this is a must have.
Lots of wagons and coaches to adjust, and also an old 3024 from 1959 converted to DC long ago by one of the previous owners, with too much space between the wheels...
Best Regards Joël |
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 5 users liked this useful post by TrainIride
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Joined: 02/08/2014(UTC) Posts: 789 Location: NEW JERSEY, USA
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Thank you gentlemen for all the info. Me thinkst I will pass on the purchase of Liliput wagons at this time. I have more rolling stock than I know what to do with. While I do not have the Frohman tools yet I will be getting them because I have a few Hag Loks which need wheel adjustment (to wide). I agree these tools are a must have.
Thanks again, Mikey |
I love the smell of smoke fluid in the morning . |
 1 user liked this useful post by analogmike
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Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC) Posts: 8,245 Location: Montreal, QC
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Originally Posted by: analogmike  While I do not have the Frohman tools yet I will be getting them because I have a few Hag Loks which need wheel adjustment (too wide). I agree these tools are a must have. My experience with Hag is not that the spacing between wheels is incorrect, but rather that the wheelsets were designed according to Fleischmann standards and the flange is wider than on Maerklin models, which can result in the outer edge of the flange coming into contact with the adjacent stud on switch tracks. Adjusting the spacing can result in situations where the inside of the wheels might contact the wye or the stud on the inside. Regards Mike C
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 1 user liked this useful post by mike c
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Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC) Posts: 2,883 Location: South Western France
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Originally Posted by: mike c  Originally Posted by: analogmike  While I do not have the Frohman tools yet I will be getting them because I have a few Hag Loks which need wheel adjustment (too wide). I agree these tools are a must have. My experience with Hag is not that the spacing between wheels is incorrect, but rather that the wheelsets were designed according to Fleischmann standards and the flange is wider than on Maerklin models, which can result in the outer edge of the flange coming into contact with the adjacent stud on switch tracks. Adjusting the spacing can result in situations where the inside of the wheels might contact the wye or the stud on the inside. Regards Mike C Yau are right Mike. In fact there was also a problem using older HAG 2-rail locos on Code 80 track! The flanges here were too "deep" and literally bounced over the ties! The Fohrmann tool needed here was a lathe cutting tool  , and the lathe that goes along with it! |
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success! |
 1 user liked this useful post by jvuye
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Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,319 Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
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Sounds like for folks that have a mix of various older and different brand vehicles you really need to set up a small machine shop to adjust spacing and machine wheels to the right form. I'd agree, the easiest solution, if one' doesn't already have the tools to make the wheel changes, is to find the info from the maker and order the right AC wheelsets from them -swap out, done. But when you have older stock or stock that no longer has parts or the manufacture is gone, then you need to resolve to the 'maker phase' - and start mechanical adjustments and possibly machining. For the Fleischman heavy load car with its 6 (or was it 8) axels I just ordered 4 new AC axels to swap out those that ran in a load carrying capacity on the ends (the middle 4 axles were just floating /decorative really) - but I don't think the shape of them causes an issue with shorting over turnouts, though I've actually tested them on a layout (the word was Fleischmann DC wheels run fine on C track). |
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 2 users liked this useful post by Minok
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Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,319 Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
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In all the talk about the wheel adjusting tools I got the urge to go poking around Fohrmann again, because, well I'm a man and thats what men covet: tools. Oooh shiney!
And soon as that I've got 250€ worth of stuff in the car. And then I hit the wall again as I did years ago with their website not supporting delivery outside of the EU. I wish they really would update that website software to provide a pull-down country outside of the EU in the address field which then locks down the order to be sent to them (ala prepay) to generate an ex-VAT invoice and payment request. Thats what one needs to do to get the stuff to, say the USA. They responded as such with an email to my asking about how I order to the US... so IF your outside of the EU and don't remember how it works, at checkout you can only select EU countries. So pick any one (I had germany, but the rest of my address was my US address) - and I chose "prepay" and put comments in the NOTES part of the checkout to have then generate an ex-VAT invoice for delivery to <your country>. That should do it. |
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 1 user liked this useful post by Minok
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