Dear All

My Marklin 39770 cantenary diesel rail car can not raise and lower it's pantograph nor can it raise/lower or turn its platform. When I have removed the body the pantograph will automatically raise and when I reconnect the body it will automatically lower it. The addresses are 70 and 71 respectively and it being controlled by an ecos 50200. Does anyone have any ideas?.

Many thanks

Andy

Andy try removing that loco from your Ecos address book & reloading it again. It worked for me.

Hi Andy,

Tom (H0) explained the type of decoders that the 39770 has.
I have set the address on my ECoS as follows
You need two entries in the ECoS, the loco movement and sounds address can be read using M4 (mfx) just put it on the programming track.
For the platform functions and pantograpgh up/down you will have to do a manual entry into the ECoS. The decoder protocol must be Motorola 28.
You will define 4 functions, F1 (platform up/down) F2 (platform rotate CW/CCW) F1 + F2 have speed control
F3 (panto up/down) F1..F3 functions should be set to permanent on the accessories for the ECoS
F4 (reset) should be set to momentary.

For the name of the loco I use (070) Cat Car for the M4 setting and (071) Cat Car Func as this will group the position of the two decoders in the loco together on the ECoS.

Hope the above helps

Hi Andy

Follow this link: http://members.ozemail.c.../pdf/39970_functions.pdf

It will open a PDF that will help you with the set up of this car for Ecos and Intellibox.

Hope it works for you, it actually did for me when I used to play my trains with an Intellibox.

Best regards

Eduardo

The loco has two decoders. One decoder is mfx and supports two MM addresses, but the addresses are not necessarily consecutive. The MM addresses of the mfx decoder will be ignored if the loco operates using mfx AKA M4.

The address of the second decoder (default 71) can be changed. I don't know what a decoder this is, I don't know if writing value 8 into CV 8 does any good, but the address can be changed.


BTW: Most likely "Motorola 14" is the optimal protocol for this decoder. I only know ESU decoders with support for "Motorola 28".
"Motorola 28" is an ESU extension of the original MM protocol and there can be problems using "Motorola 28" for decoders that strictly support the MM protocol.

There is no conflict if M4 is active on the ECoS. CV 75 will be ignored if the primary decoder uses mfx.
There is no "conflict" if M4 is not active either, because both decoders will then respond to address 71.
No value checking CV 75 if the platform is not working. If the platform is working with unwanted sounds, then two decoders respond to the same address and one address should be changed.

Here's what I know: Uhlenbrock promised to support Motorola 28 with the 2.0 update for the Intellibox, but they did not keep this promise.
Motorola old has 14 speed steps, Motorola new has 14 speed steps. Motorola 28 is an ESU extension that violates the original MM specification and can lead to problems with decoders that strictly adhere to the MM specification.

The only Märklin controller that supports Motorola 28 is the CS 60212. And AFAIK only Märklin locos with ESU decoders support Motorola 28.

So there are three Motorola protocols: MM14 old, MM14 new, MM28 (which is rather ESU Motorola than Märklin Motorola).
MM27 is just MM14 new with 14 speed steps on the track level.
Maybe you are mixing up MM27 and MM28.


I changed the address of my TVT like I change addresses on other programmable MM decoders. I think I did it with a CU 6021.

MM27 uses the MM14 protocol on the track level and, as you say, the decoder does some magic with it if it supports it.
MM27 can be used even with a CU 6021 because it is just plain MM14 on the track level. You can use MM27 even if the controller does not support it.

No.
The mfx decoders Märklin bought from ESU support MM28.
The mfx decoders Märklin use now support the MM27 pseudo-protocol.

Any chance you could try the loco with CS2 or 3 just to confirm that the loco is working correctly.

Hello Andy,

What was the value of CV75 before you changed it?

Change CV75 to a value that isn't 70 or 71.

Since you have a 6021 controller try the loco with it as the protocols will be correct.

When you power on do you see the platform move at all?

If you don't detect any movement use F4 which will do a reset for address 71 platform control. Again did the platform move/jerk a little?

MM28 uses bit patterns that are invalid with MM14 and "MM27", therefore it is important to use MM28 only when you are sure the decoder supports it. Therefore I think it is a bad idea to recommend MM28 for the railcar - the railcar is too new to have an fx decoder with MM28 IMHO.

Decoders that support MM28 or "MM27" all support MM14, so nothing can go wrong when you try MM14 first.
"MM27" brings only small disadvantages with decoders that support MM14 and/or MM28, but all functions will work.
So with respect to functions, both MM14 and "MM27" can be used for a first test. MM28 is a special case and rarely found with Märklin fx locos.

If a loco is not working, then MM14 on the ECoS should be the first test. And MM14 on the ECoS is "Motorola new", of course. Use "MM14 fx" for function decoders that require Motorola old.

Hi Andy,

I have the 39770 and an Intellibox. Mainly I now use my CS2 but I have run the 39770 from the Intellibox and it works fine.

If it helps, when I get a moment I can double-check the operation and let you know how mine operates just as a final check?

Mine has the default addresses, the initial issue with mine was the Nylon for the Panto was broken, it had to go back to M. in the end to fix it.

But I love it, I'm just cautious of not using it too often for fear of some other failure, but using it often enough that it keeps operating.

Cheers

Steve
NZ

Edited by user 23 September 2018 22:01:11(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Hi Lou, you echo what many have said previously here and it's really disappointing that we even find ourselves in this position. I've heard people compare modern Locos to consumer items such as cellphones, laptops , TV's etc and looking incredulous when the owner is disappointed the Loco 'only' lasted 3,4 or 5 years when a higher value mobile phone is considered worthless in 3-4 years and why would you even bother trying to repair it?

Such people completely and utterly miss the point of something like a model railway. For one thing, most people have only one mobile phone at a time, you cannot have a railroad empire with a single loco. Secondly there's the aspect that these Loco's need not be non-repairable. Märklin produce them in planned production runs, and in the absence of engineering them to a higher quality (= higher price), also producing sufficient additional spare parts for a reasonable number of repairs, worldwide, for a reasonable length of time. But there there's the definition of 'reasonable'.

So many of us that have enjoyed Märklin for years (or indeed decades for some), will have been used to being able to easily get functional parts 20 years down the track.

I love the operational features of many of the new loco's, but the thought of spending several hundred $ on something that might pack up out of the blue with no hope of repair is more than a bit depressing.

But I can also see Märklin's point of view. Holding what must be thousands and thousands of spare parts for various models year on year is a logistical nightmare and a massive cost.

One saving grace that is being hinted at more and more might be increased use of 3D printing of spare parts where parts could be produced in small runs as and when required. Ditto for Decoder boards. They should be settling on a standard basic decoder with all the 'core' functions, which would always be available and be the basis of the ongoing program, and then designing the supplemental boards to control features unique to the model in such a way that they can be repaired or reproduced quickly and cost-effectively - ie off-the-shelf components. Of course, having said that, try finding an original Motorola IC for a K83 decoder. Really common and cheap in their hey-day, but now much harder to find, simply because few companies produce products that use them.

it's almost getting to the point that if you purchase a particularly desirable item you hope to enjoy for many years, you might as well order two, as a backup precaution.

Cheers

Dear All

Thanks for all your reply's on this... At the moment it still does not work... But as one final test I will try as jean says and with the MFX address set at 70 and then test the other decoder (pantograph..etc) from 1 through to 80 to see what happens on my IB.

Cheers

Andy

Digital features add a lot of fun to model trains but the higher failure rates, unavailability of repair parts and shorter life spans unfortunately seem to come along as part of that too. I think of a Märklin model as something that I will have for life but maybe that is no longer the case. The electronic components in today's locos will become obsolete and unavailable long before the mechanical bits wear out and the best that we can hope for is to be able to upgrade when necessary.

I really wanted the 39974 but its complexity made me hold back due to these kind of problems. It has been less than two years since I got my lovely 39952 railbus and trailer only to have the PCB and decoder fail within weeks. Unfortunately that model seems to have had a very high failure rate and the similarity to the 39974 was enough to kill that deal for me. I am currently hesitating on the new Ardelt crane car for the same reason.

I'm not sure how this will all turn out in the long run, but it gets harder to justify ever higher prices if you can't count on either durability or being able to repair the models in case of failure.

Hi Tom

I agree with what you write. Just a question: the Piezzo motor manufacturer is Thorlabs (https://www.thorlabs.com/newgrou...fm?objectgroup_id=10122))
They seem to still exist. The reason why Marklin abandonned this may be:
- fast abrasion on the motor nose (where it touches the wheel)
- rather instable functioning either in forward or reverse
- driver's availability.

While I checked this on the 2 first points (I have both the 39770 and the Piezzo crane) I am not too sure on the driver availability but for sure Märklin does not delivers the PCBs anymore
Cheers
Jean

Yeah, the problem is likely the specialized controller boards to drive the specialized actuators of the older model. one could maybe install modern servos in place of the old motors if there is space and you can 3D Print some mounting components to install as the mounting points and mechanics would be slightly different.

Specialized hardware that requires specilized signaling to control is always a risk point. Though for the newer decouplers (different topic I know) that are not yet available as a spare part, which require special signals from the decoder, it may be worth it - especially if a decoder add on that converts tradional on/off decoder output to the needed signal to drive the peizo ever comes out.

Hi Jean, I have found this discussion because yesterday my 39970 also stop working with address 71, and for some reason I still don’t understand the address has changed its number. I realized that since there still was some movement at the moment of initialize the model so I decided to review all numbers and I found the number, now my model operates the pantograph with address 80. I don’t see if this solution was tested by others here but it could had be the problem.
Now regarding the address change, in the stunning forum one guy says it can be changed but using the 6021, it make sense since the 6021 will only work with MM protocol. I don’t have the 6021 but will try to borrow one from a friend that still like to use this old control and try to change the address to 71 again.

Regards

Eduardo

Hi Ross
An excellent report matching exactly what I observed on my unit. Thanks
Sadly with age I also found that the 0.1 mm Nylon thread pulling down the pantograph is not flexible anymore preventing smooth operation and needs replacing.

Cheers
Jean

That is definitely wrong. I did it with an Intellibox.
There may be other controllers that can make this happen. It seems that with CS2/CS3 you can change the address accidentally.

The steps you use to change the address of programmable decoders, no special tricks needed.

Wow what a process but good that you got it nailed Eduardo.

I have one of these models myself, and a CS2 so I shall try to remember to take the Loco off the tracks if I'm ever searching for mfx loco.

By the way, I learned something when I was reading up about that particular Loco in an older Insider report.

The Pantograph is not to take power from the overhead - it's to 'ground' the overhead for safety while the engineers work on it.

And there's me quite happy to run mine around the track with the Panto up!! I guess I can be forgiven but just goes to show.