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Offline fossie  
#1 Posted : 17 September 2018 17:33:03(UTC)
fossie

United Kingdom   
Joined: 27/03/2004(UTC)
Posts: 39
Location: ,
Dear All

My Marklin 39770 cantenary diesel rail car can not raise and lower it's pantograph nor can it raise/lower or turn its platform. When I have removed the body the pantograph will automatically raise and when I reconnect the body it will automatically lower it. The addresses are 70 and 71 respectively and it being controlled by an ecos 50200. Does anyone have any ideas?.

Many thanks

Andy


Offline Goofy  
#2 Posted : 17 September 2018 18:34:17(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,436
Looks like default with the PCB board?
CS3...H0...
Offline Dave Banks  
#3 Posted : 18 September 2018 01:19:38(UTC)
Dave Banks

Australia   
Joined: 08/03/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,039
Location: Gold Coast, Australia.
Andy try removing that loco from your Ecos address book & reloading it again. It worked for me.
D.A.Banks
Offline H0  
#4 Posted : 18 September 2018 07:52:01(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi, Andy!
Originally Posted by: fossie Go to Quoted Post
The addresses are 70 and 71 respectively and it being controlled by an ecos 50200. Does anyone have any ideas?
This item has two decoders - one that uses mfx (and then address most likely will not be 70), one that uses MM only.
Default address is 71, but the address can be changed.
Maybe you did not register address 71 correctly. Maybe you accidentally changed the address. Maybe the decoder is defect.

How did you register the two decoders with your ECoS? Do you have other digital controllers to try this item?
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Ross  
#5 Posted : 18 September 2018 09:01:35(UTC)
Ross

Australia   
Joined: 25/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 782
Location: Sydney, NSW
Hi Andy,

Tom (H0) explained the type of decoders that the 39770 has.
I have set the address on my ECoS as follows
You need two entries in the ECoS, the loco movement and sounds address can be read using M4 (mfx) just put it on the programming track.
For the platform functions and pantograpgh up/down you will have to do a manual entry into the ECoS. The decoder protocol must be Motorola 28.
You will define 4 functions, F1 (platform up/down) F2 (platform rotate CW/CCW) F1 + F2 have speed control
F3 (panto up/down) F1..F3 functions should be set to permanent on the accessories for the ECoS
F4 (reset) should be set to momentary.

For the name of the loco I use (070) Cat Car for the M4 setting and (071) Cat Car Func as this will group the position of the two decoders in the loco together on the ECoS.

Hope the above helps



Originally Posted by: fossie Go to Quoted Post
Dear All

My Marklin 39770 cantenary diesel rail car can not raise and lower it's pantograph nor can it raise/lower or turn its platform. When I have removed the body the pantograph will automatically raise and when I reconnect the body it will automatically lower it. The addresses are 70 and 71 respectively and it being controlled by an ecos 50200. Does anyone have any ideas?.

Many thanks

Andy




Ross
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Offline fossie  
#6 Posted : 18 September 2018 21:36:48(UTC)
fossie

United Kingdom   
Joined: 27/03/2004(UTC)
Posts: 39
Location: ,
Dear All

Thanks for the reply's on this. I am still having issues... I have tried the following:

1) deleted all entry's of the loco in the ecos 52000.
2) but the loco on the programming track and it detected it fine by M4..... lights, movement and sounds worked fine.
3) to configure the second address. i put the loco on the programming track (prog mot) and did the the following
configured cv 8.... value 8
configured cv 1.... value 71 (to set the address of the second decoder to 71)
4) created a new loco manually on the ecos, selecting address 71 and using motorola 28 and configuring the function buttons f1 through to f4

Once i did some testing selecting loco 71 on the ecos. I still had issues with no platform movement and the pantograph?.

NB when I tested the loco out on my old intellibox and selected address 70....it worked... i got sounds, movement, lights etc. When i selected 71 to test the platform and pantograph it did not work... Instead i got the additional sounds of the saw, hammer and drill. This seams to suggest it will not accept the address 71 or something.

Am I still doing something wrong.

Thanks for all your help

Andy

Offline eduard71  
#7 Posted : 18 September 2018 23:25:18(UTC)
eduard71

Chile   
Joined: 27/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 273
Location: Santiago
Hi Andy

Follow this link: http://members.ozemail.c.../pdf/39970_functions.pdf

It will open a PDF that will help you with the set up of this car for Ecos and Intellibox.

Hope it works for you, it actually did for me when I used to play my trains with an Intellibox.

Best regards

Eduardo







Originally Posted by: fossie Go to Quoted Post
Dear All

Thanks for the reply's on this. I am still having issues... I have tried the following:

1) deleted all entry's of the loco in the ecos 52000.
2) but the loco on the programming track and it detected it fine by M4..... lights, movement and sounds worked fine.
3) to configure the second address. i put the loco on the programming track (prog mot) and did the the following
configured cv 8.... value 8
configured cv 1.... value 71 (to set the address of the second decoder to 71)
4) created a new loco manually on the ecos, selecting address 71 and using motorola 28 and configuring the function buttons f1 through to f4

Once i did some testing selecting loco 71 on the ecos. I still had issues with no platform movement and the pantograph?.

NB when I tested the loco out on my old intellibox and selected address 70....it worked... i got sounds, movement, lights etc. When i selected 71 to test the platform and pantograph it did not work... Instead i got the additional sounds of the saw, hammer and drill. This seams to suggest it will not accept the address 71 or something.

Am I still doing something wrong.

Thanks for all your help

Andy

thanks 2 users liked this useful post by eduard71
Offline Ross  
#8 Posted : 19 September 2018 06:02:52(UTC)
Ross

Australia   
Joined: 25/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 782
Location: Sydney, NSW
Hello Eduardo, Andy and All,

Eduardo thanks for listing my pdf for the 39970 loco, I'm glad it helped you.

Andy you have listed this problem as 39770 is that number correct?

What IB do you have as my article refers to IB(I)
Please pay special attention to the special options on page 1 of the article
I didn't mention that all loco addresses for the 39970 need to be Motorola new on the IB.

The links for Uhlenbrock in the Article are now incorect and you click on Uhlenbrock at the beginning of this line..

If you are getting sounds for loco 71 then the secondary address has been used and is incorrect as the address must be consecutive to the primary address.

In the article I set address 69 (MM) with address 70 (MM) for functions F5-F8 and finally address 71 (MM) for F1-F4 which can't be changed.

Hope this helps.

Originally Posted by: eduard71 Go to Quoted Post
Hi Andy

Follow this link: http://members.ozemail.c.../pdf/39970_functions.pdf

It will open a PDF that will help you with the set up of this car for Ecos and Intellibox.

Hope it works for you, it actually did for me when I used to play my trains with an Intellibox.

Best regards

Eduardo



Ross
Offline H0  
#9 Posted : 19 September 2018 07:25:12(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Ross Go to Quoted Post
If you are getting sounds for loco 71 then the secondary address has been used and is incorrect as the address must be consecutive to the primary address.
The loco has two decoders. One decoder is mfx and supports two MM addresses, but the addresses are not necessarily consecutive. The MM addresses of the mfx decoder will be ignored if the loco operates using mfx AKA M4.

Originally Posted by: Ross Go to Quoted Post
In the article I set address 69 (MM) with address 70 (MM) for functions F5-F8 and finally address 71 (MM) for F1-F4 which can't be changed.
The address of the second decoder (default 71) can be changed. I don't know what a decoder this is, I don't know if writing value 8 into CV 8 does any good, but the address can be changed.


BTW: Most likely "Motorola 14" is the optimal protocol for this decoder. I only know ESU decoders with support for "Motorola 28".
"Motorola 28" is an ESU extension of the original MM protocol and there can be problems using "Motorola 28" for decoders that strictly support the MM protocol.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Ross  
#10 Posted : 19 September 2018 09:37:30(UTC)
Ross

Australia   
Joined: 25/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 782
Location: Sydney, NSW
Hello Tom/Andy and All

Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Ross Go to Quoted Post
If you are getting sounds for loco 71 then the secondary address has been used and is incorrect as the address must be consecutive to the primary address.
The loco has two decoders. One decoder is mfx and supports two MM addresses, but the addresses are not necessarily consecutive. The MM addresses of the mfx decoder will be ignored if the loco operates using mfx AKA M4.


Andy should check what value CV75 = xx? My guess it has a value of 71 which will conflict with the permanent address of 71 for the platform up/down/rotate and reset.

Originally Posted by: Ross Go to Quoted Post
In the article I set address 69 (MM) with address 70 (MM) for functions F5-F8 and finally address 71 (MM) for F1-F4 which can't be changed. The address of the second decoder (default 71) can be changed. I don't know what a decoder this is, I don't know if writing value 8 into CV 8 does any good, but the address can be changed.


On page 10 of the instructions it states "The address 71 of the function decoder is not to be changed"
Have you got this loco and have you changed the functions address, if so how did you do it?


H0 wrote:
BTW: Most likely "Motorola 14" is the optimal protocol for this decoder. I only know ESU decoders with support for "Motorola 28".
"Motorola 28" is an ESU extension of the original MM protocol and there can be problems using "Motorola 28" for decoders that strictly support the MM protocol.


I know there are two Motorola protocols,
Motorola 1 (old) = Motorola 14 and doesn't support functions F1-F4
Motorola 2 (new) = Motorola new (IB) and ECoS Motorola 28 supports functions F1-F4 which are the settings I use and the locomotive functions very well as I use it most days when I'm running my trains.

On the IB the protocol has to be set to Motorola new and on the ECoS the protocol must be set to Motorola 28.
Ross
Offline H0  
#11 Posted : 19 September 2018 10:57:13(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Ross Go to Quoted Post
Andy should check what value CV75 = xx? My guess it has a value of 71 which will conflict with the permanent address of 71 for the platform up/down/rotate and reset.
There is no conflict if M4 is active on the ECoS. CV 75 will be ignored if the primary decoder uses mfx.
There is no "conflict" if M4 is not active either, because both decoders will then respond to address 71.
No value checking CV 75 if the platform is not working. If the platform is working with unwanted sounds, then two decoders respond to the same address and one address should be changed.

Originally Posted by: Ross Go to Quoted Post
I know there are two Motorola protocols,
Motorola 1 (old) = Motorola 14 and doesn't support functions F1-F4
Motorola 2 (new) = Motorola new (IB) and ECoS Motorola 28 supports functions F1-F4 which are the settings I use and the locomotive functions very well as I use it most days when I'm running my trains.
Here's what I know: Uhlenbrock promised to support Motorola 28 with the 2.0 update for the Intellibox, but they did not keep this promise.
Motorola old has 14 speed steps, Motorola new has 14 speed steps. Motorola 28 is an ESU extension that violates the original MM specification and can lead to problems with decoders that strictly adhere to the MM specification.

The only Märklin controller that supports Motorola 28 is the CS 60212. And AFAIK only Märklin locos with ESU decoders support Motorola 28.

So there are three Motorola protocols: MM14 old, MM14 new, MM28 (which is rather ESU Motorola than Märklin Motorola).
MM27 is just MM14 new with 14 speed steps on the track level.
Maybe you are mixing up MM27 and MM28.


I changed the address of my TVT like I change addresses on other programmable MM decoders. I think I did it with a CU 6021.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#12 Posted : 19 September 2018 14:24:46(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 6,278
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post

MM27 is just MM14 new with 14 speed steps on the track level.


Not quite, MM27 is a 'special case' by Marklin whereby the decoder would do 'half speed steps' when you went up a speed notch, say 4 to 5, then went back a speed notch, 5 to 4, and the decoder would recognise this and use a speed of 4.5. I don't believe Marklin ever produced a controller that did this automagically, it was up to the user to do it, but it is certainly an observable behaviour when using the speed measuring coach.

Once Marklin produced mfx decoders that have 128 speed steps they stopped adding this half step feature to decoders.



Offline H0  
#13 Posted : 19 September 2018 15:22:29(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Not quite, MM27 is a 'special case' by Marklin whereby the decoder [...]
MM27 uses the MM14 protocol on the track level and, as you say, the decoder does some magic with it if it supports it.
MM27 can be used even with a CU 6021 because it is just plain MM14 on the track level. You can use MM27 even if the controller does not support it.

Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Once Marklin produced mfx decoders that have 128 speed steps they stopped adding this half step feature to decoders.
No.
The mfx decoders Märklin bought from ESU support MM28.
The mfx decoders Märklin use now support the MM27 pseudo-protocol.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline fossie  
#14 Posted : 19 September 2018 20:53:55(UTC)
fossie

United Kingdom   
Joined: 27/03/2004(UTC)
Posts: 39
Location: ,
Dear All

I have followed Ross's PDF instructions and configured both the special options on my IB(1) and set the address as 69 with the ecos and set CV 75 to 70 with the ecos. Now when I select address 71 on both the ecos and IB(1) the panto-graph and platform still do not move and i now get no sounds.

I have not tried changing the CV's on my IB(1) as I am not sure how this is done.

Thanks again for all your help

Andy
Offline David Dewar  
#15 Posted : 19 September 2018 21:05:40(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,000
Location: Scotland
Any chance you could try the loco with CS2 or 3 just to confirm that the loco is working correctly.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
Offline fossie  
#16 Posted : 19 September 2018 21:14:28(UTC)
fossie

United Kingdom   
Joined: 27/03/2004(UTC)
Posts: 39
Location: ,
Unfortunately I don't have a CS2 or 3. I only have an ecos 50200, IB(1) and an old Marklin 6021.

Cheers

Andy
Offline Ross  
#17 Posted : 19 September 2018 23:46:49(UTC)
Ross

Australia   
Joined: 25/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 782
Location: Sydney, NSW
Hello Andy,

What was the value of CV75 before you changed it?

Change CV75 to a value that isn't 70 or 71.

Since you have a 6021 controller try the loco with it as the protocols will be correct.

When you power on do you see the platform move at all?

If you don't detect any movement use F4 which will do a reset for address 71 platform control. Again did the platform move/jerk a little?





Originally Posted by: fossie Go to Quoted Post
Unfortunately I don't have a CS2 or 3. I only have an ecos 50200, IB(1) and an old Marklin 6021.

Cheers

Andy


Ross
Offline Ross  
#18 Posted : 20 September 2018 00:14:23(UTC)
Ross

Australia   
Joined: 25/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 782
Location: Sydney, NSW
Hello Tom,

I forgot about MM27 but with that key word I have had conflicts with MM27 decoder being configured as Motorola 28 on the ECoS as the functions F1-F4 wouldn't respond at all. Changing the protocol to Motorola 27 all functions worked.

The protocols on the ECoS are Motorola 14, Motorola 28, Motorola 27, Motorola fx 14. If the incorrect protocol is chosen the functions are unreliable or won't work at all.

The fact that the 39970 loco has a mfx decoder that can switch to Motorola when mfx (M4) isn't used and has a second Motorola decoder and we don't know what Motorola protocol each decoder uses
there is potential for conflicts when we want to use the functions.

As a general requirement I would like to know the type of decoder that is installed in a loco when buying it but I have never seen this information supplied.


Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Not quite, MM27 is a 'special case' by Marklin whereby the decoder [...]
MM27 uses the MM14 protocol on the track level and, as you say, the decoder does some magic with it if it supports it.
MM27 can be used even with a CU 6021 because it is just plain MM14 on the track level. You can use MM27 even if the controller does not support it.

Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Once Marklin produced mfx decoders that have 128 speed steps they stopped adding this half step feature to decoders.
No.
The mfx decoders Märklin bought from ESU support MM28.
The mfx decoders Märklin use now support the MM27 pseudo-protocol.


Ross
Offline H0  
#19 Posted : 20 September 2018 08:10:48(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Ross Go to Quoted Post
I forgot about MM27 but with that key word I have had conflicts with MM27 decoder being configured as Motorola 28 on the ECoS as the functions F1-F4 wouldn't respond at all. Changing the protocol to Motorola 27 all functions worked.

The protocols on the ECoS are Motorola 14, Motorola 28, Motorola 27, Motorola fx 14. If the incorrect protocol is chosen the functions are unreliable or won't work at all.
MM28 uses bit patterns that are invalid with MM14 and "MM27", therefore it is important to use MM28 only when you are sure the decoder supports it. Therefore I think it is a bad idea to recommend MM28 for the railcar - the railcar is too new to have an fx decoder with MM28 IMHO.

Decoders that support MM28 or "MM27" all support MM14, so nothing can go wrong when you try MM14 first.
"MM27" brings only small disadvantages with decoders that support MM14 and/or MM28, but all functions will work.
So with respect to functions, both MM14 and "MM27" can be used for a first test. MM28 is a special case and rarely found with Märklin fx locos.

If a loco is not working, then MM14 on the ECoS should be the first test. And MM14 on the ECoS is "Motorola new", of course. Use "MM14 fx" for function decoders that require Motorola old.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline JohnjeanB  
#20 Posted : 23 September 2018 11:18:01(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,731
Location: Paris, France
Hi Andy

From what you describe, your 39970 seems to be fine: the MFX part is OK and the Fx decoder re-initializes the pantograph at each power-up.
What is very likely happend to your unit happened to mine: the "other" decoder changed its address by itself (Checking on the Stummi forum and others I am not the only one.
You cannot change the decoder address as you would on other units.
The reason is the MFX decoder locks the other one (e.g.: when the car travels, all commands to the pantograph or the "Bühne"n (the moving platform).

So it leaves you with one solution (easy but takes time) check all the possible addresses for it. In my case it changed to address 04.
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Cheers

Jean
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Offline cookee_nz  
#21 Posted : 23 September 2018 12:08:08(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,668
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: fossie Go to Quoted Post
Unfortunately I don't have a CS2 or 3. I only have an ecos 50200, IB(1) and an old Marklin 6021.

Cheers

Andy


Hi Andy,

I have the 39770 and an Intellibox. Mainly I now use my CS2 but I have run the 39770 from the Intellibox and it works fine.

If it helps, when I get a moment I can double-check the operation and let you know how mine operates just as a final check?

Mine has the default addresses, the initial issue with mine was the Nylon for the Panto was broken, it had to go back to M. in the end to fix it.

But I love it, I'm just cautious of not using it too often for fear of some other failure, but using it often enough that it keeps operating.

Cheers

Steve
NZ

Edited by user 23 September 2018 22:01:11(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Cookee
Wellington
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Offline Spider  
#22 Posted : 24 September 2018 09:30:39(UTC)
Spider


Joined: 24/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3
Location: hkg
Hi Andy,

Sorry to hear of your issues over your 39770. It is a rather complicated piece and I have a similar one that I rarely used or ran. Bought in 2012 and in pristine condition.

However, it died on me last year (decoder issue) and could not be read on ECos or CS2. The item was examined by a highly creditable expert on M locos and conversions , who declined to make any moves on it, due to its complexity. Fair enough, and so it was sent back to Marklin for repair.

Guess what they said? Simply - We have no parts to fix this item.

It was sent back to me and it now lies in its box and is basically a paperweight, and not a very good one either. Apparently the new versions of this railcar differ significantly from the old one.

No parts available when you are the manufacturer? Are we serious?

Marklin as a company are a huge letdown. More and more products with what I call "fancy stuff" - features that are unnecessary and cause angst and lots of $ to fix when they go wrong, and they will go wrong. I've been a supporter of M for over 50 years, but my experience with the quality issues over the last 10 have been horrendous.

I bought the double diesel 37285 in 2017 and like the yellow railcar, it was rarely played with. I took it out for a run last week and guess what? It's dead. Totally dead with no response.

Lucky this is a MHI item covered by the 5 year warrantee. It's on its way to Marklin, but has incurred postal costs on me and some uncertainty again.

So good luck with trying to get it right. Don't count on Marklin to get it right for your railcar, they'll just send it right back with scant details on whats wrong with it, and tell you "We can't fix it" Now its two in a row with me.

Sorry if this ends up being a rant. But the purpose of our train hobby should be to give us fun. I've - "Been there n done that" with all these fancy items.

Best regards,
Lou



Offline cookee_nz  
#23 Posted : 24 September 2018 10:51:39(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,668
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: Spider Go to Quoted Post
Hi Andy,

Sorry to hear of your issues over your 39770. It is a rather complicated piece and I have a similar one that I rarely used or ran. Bought in 2012 and in pristine condition.

However, it died on me last year (decoder issue) and could not be read on ECos or CS2. The item was examined by a highly creditable expert on M locos and conversions , who declined to make any moves on it, due to its complexity. Fair enough, and so it was sent back to Marklin for repair.

Guess what they said? Simply - We have no parts to fix this item.

It was sent back to me and it now lies in its box and is basically a paperweight, and not a very good one either. Apparently the new versions of this railcar differ significantly from the old one.

No parts available when you are the manufacturer? Are we serious?

Marklin as a company are a huge letdown. More and more products with what I call "fancy stuff" - features that are unnecessary and cause angst and lots of $ to fix when they go wrong, and they will go wrong. I've been a supporter of M for over 50 years, but my experience with the quality issues over the last 10 have been horrendous.

I bought the double diesel 37285 in 2017 and like the yellow railcar, it was rarely played with. I took it out for a run last week and guess what? It's dead. Totally dead with no response.

Lucky this is a MHI item covered by the 5 year warrantee. It's on its way to Marklin, but has incurred postal costs on me and some uncertainty again.

So good luck with trying to get it right. Don't count on Marklin to get it right for your railcar, they'll just send it right back with scant details on whats wrong with it, and tell you "We can't fix it" Now its two in a row with me.

Sorry if this ends up being a rant. But the purpose of our train hobby should be to give us fun. I've - "Been there n done that" with all these fancy items.

Best regards,
Lou



Hi Lou, you echo what many have said previously here and it's really disappointing that we even find ourselves in this position. I've heard people compare modern Locos to consumer items such as cellphones, laptops , TV's etc and looking incredulous when the owner is disappointed the Loco 'only' lasted 3,4 or 5 years when a higher value mobile phone is considered worthless in 3-4 years and why would you even bother trying to repair it?

Such people completely and utterly miss the point of something like a model railway. For one thing, most people have only one mobile phone at a time, you cannot have a railroad empire with a single loco. Secondly there's the aspect that these Loco's need not be non-repairable. Märklin produce them in planned production runs, and in the absence of engineering them to a higher quality (= higher price), also producing sufficient additional spare parts for a reasonable number of repairs, worldwide, for a reasonable length of time. But there there's the definition of 'reasonable'.

So many of us that have enjoyed Märklin for years (or indeed decades for some), will have been used to being able to easily get functional parts 20 years down the track.

I love the operational features of many of the new loco's, but the thought of spending several hundred $ on something that might pack up out of the blue with no hope of repair is more than a bit depressing.

But I can also see Märklin's point of view. Holding what must be thousands and thousands of spare parts for various models year on year is a logistical nightmare and a massive cost.

One saving grace that is being hinted at more and more might be increased use of 3D printing of spare parts where parts could be produced in small runs as and when required. Ditto for Decoder boards. They should be settling on a standard basic decoder with all the 'core' functions, which would always be available and be the basis of the ongoing program, and then designing the supplemental boards to control features unique to the model in such a way that they can be repaired or reproduced quickly and cost-effectively - ie off-the-shelf components. Of course, having said that, try finding an original Motorola IC for a K83 decoder. Really common and cheap in their hey-day, but now much harder to find, simply because few companies produce products that use them.

it's almost getting to the point that if you purchase a particularly desirable item you hope to enjoy for many years, you might as well order two, as a backup precaution.

Cheers
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
Offline midwestbls  
#24 Posted : 24 September 2018 22:39:46(UTC)
midwestbls

United States   
Joined: 04/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 76
It makes NO sense that Marklin doesn't have the parts to repair this as it just released a new version (39974) with operational pantograph and work platform - main difference is that all functions are now on a single mfx+ decoder (and there are additional sound effects). Might be worth a shot at re-sending to M for repair now.


(I sold my 39970 - for a lot less than I paid - as the new 39974 operates much more simply and the crimson paint scheme (and no DB logo) better fits my modeling era and primarily Swiss-themed collection. Along with last year's museum "Sommerfeldt" catenary car, it's a great set - like the 39971 set from 2009, but with the operating panto and work platform!

Anyone know how to order spare parts? I'd like to get a "two-level" coupler connection part to use with the non-standard low coupler pocket on the 39974 and 48117 - I think it's part # E372680 "Deichsel-Kupplung"...)
ETE - Swiss Era III - BLS - Brig Station
Offline fossie  
#25 Posted : 25 September 2018 04:51:48(UTC)
fossie

United Kingdom   
Joined: 27/03/2004(UTC)
Posts: 39
Location: ,
Dear All

Thanks for all your reply's on this... At the moment it still does not work... But as one final test I will try as jean says and with the MFX address set at 70 and then test the other decoder (pantograph..etc) from 1 through to 80 to see what happens on my IB.

Cheers

Andy
Offline dickinsonj  
#26 Posted : 26 September 2018 01:24:06(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,444
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: midwestbls Go to Quoted Post

Anyone know how to order spare parts? I'd like to get a "two-level" coupler connection part to use with the non-standard low coupler pocket on the 39974 and 48117 - I think it's part # E372680 "Deichsel-Kupplung"...)


You might want to contact AJCKids in Texas. I have gotten a number of obscure repair parts from them over the years. It takes a while for them to get the parts and you will not usually find a part like that listed on their website, but Belle has always come through for me when I have asked. The other option is to buy the parts directly from Europe, with ebay being the best source that I have found. Good Luck.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
Offline dickinsonj  
#27 Posted : 26 September 2018 01:49:20(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,444
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: cookee_nz Go to Quoted Post

Hi Lou, you echo what many have said previously here and it's really disappointing that we even find ourselves in this position. I've heard people compare modern Locos to consumer items such as cellphones, laptops , TV's etc and looking incredulous when the owner is disappointed the Loco 'only' lasted 3,4 or 5 years when a higher value mobile phone is considered worthless in 3-4 years and why would you even bother trying to repair it?
Cheers


Digital features add a lot of fun to model trains but the higher failure rates, unavailability of repair parts and shorter life spans unfortunately seem to come along as part of that too. I think of a Märklin model as something that I will have for life but maybe that is no longer the case. The electronic components in today's locos will become obsolete and unavailable long before the mechanical bits wear out and the best that we can hope for is to be able to upgrade when necessary.

I really wanted the 39974 but its complexity made me hold back due to these kind of problems. It has been less than two years since I got my lovely 39952 railbus and trailer only to have the PCB and decoder fail within weeks. Unfortunately that model seems to have had a very high failure rate and the similarity to the 39974 was enough to kill that deal for me. I am currently hesitating on the new Ardelt crane car for the same reason.

I'm not sure how this will all turn out in the long run, but it gets harder to justify ever higher prices if you can't count on either durability or being able to repair the models in case of failure.

Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
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Offline H0  
#28 Posted : 26 September 2018 11:19:59(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: midwestbls Go to Quoted Post
It makes NO sense that Marklin doesn't have the parts to repair this as it just released a new version (39974) with operational pantograph and work platform - main difference is that all functions are now on a single mfx+ decoder (and there are additional sound effects). Might be worth a shot at re-sending to M for repair now.
That depends on the definition of "main difference".
The old railcar 39970 uses piezo motors (AFAIK from a company that no longer exists) while the 39974 uses servo motors. So the motor driver electronics needed between decoder and motor are completely different.

Märklin sometimes tell us that parts from a new product cannot be used for an old product when in fact they can be used.

But I can imagine that it will be complicated or at least expensive to use parts from the 39974 for the 39970 if only the secondary decoder of the 39970 has failed. You may need a new sound decoder and servos that replace the piezo motors. You will need a new motor, too, as the new decoder PCB will not be suitable for C Sine motors. Buying a new 39974 could be the cheaper option.

Availability of spare parts for modern Märklin items is a big problem. Too many short-lived motor generations, too many short-lived decoder generations, digital gimmicks only used for a short period (like the piezo thingies for pantographs, cranes, platforms).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline JohnjeanB  
#29 Posted : 09 October 2018 16:21:38(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,731
Location: Paris, France
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
That depends on the definition of "main difference".
The old railcar 39970 uses piezo motors (AFAIK from a company that no longer exists) while the 39974 uses servo motors. So the motor driver electronics needed between decoder and motor are completely different.

Märklin sometimes tell us that parts from a new product cannot be used for an old product when in fact they can be used.

But I can imagine that it will be complicated or at least expensive to use parts from the 39974 for the 39970 if only the secondary decoder of the 39970 has failed. You may need a new sound decoder and servos that replace the piezo motors. You will need a new motor, too, as the new decoder PCB will not be suitable for C Sine motors. Buying a new 39974 could be the cheaper option.

Availability of spare parts for modern Märklin items is a big problem. Too many short-lived motor generations, too many short-lived decoder generations, digital gimmicks only used for a short period (like the piezo thingies for pantographs, cranes, platforms).

Hi Tom

I agree with what you write. Just a question: the Piezzo motor manufacturer is Thorlabs (https://www.thorlabs.com/newgrou...fm?objectgroup_id=10122))
They seem to still exist. The reason why Marklin abandonned this may be:
- fast abrasion on the motor nose (where it touches the wheel)
- rather instable functioning either in forward or reverse
- driver's availability.

While I checked this on the 2 first points (I have both the 39770 and the Piezzo crane) I am not too sure on the driver availability but for sure Märklin does not delivers the PCBs anymore
Cheers
Jean

My layout videos
latest vid
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Offline H0  
#30 Posted : 09 October 2018 16:58:54(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Just a question: the Piezzo motor manufacturer is Thorlabs (https://www.thorlabs.com/newgrou...fm?objectgroup_id=10122))
They seem to still exist.
AFAIK it was Elliptec Resonant Actuator AG:
https://app.insolvenz-po...nant-actuator-ag/1736410

I don't know if the products are still available.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Minok  
#31 Posted : 09 October 2018 23:19:00(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,218
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Yeah, the problem is likely the specialized controller boards to drive the specialized actuators of the older model. one could maybe install modern servos in place of the old motors if there is space and you can 3D Print some mounting components to install as the mounting points and mechanics would be slightly different.

Specialized hardware that requires specilized signaling to control is always a risk point. Though for the newer decouplers (different topic I know) that are not yet available as a spare part, which require special signals from the decoder, it may be worth it - especially if a decoder add on that converts tradional on/off decoder output to the needed signal to drive the peizo ever comes out.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
Offline dickinsonj  
#32 Posted : 10 October 2018 00:44:30(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,444
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
- especially if a decoder add on that converts traditional on/off decoder output to the needed signal to drive the piezo ever comes out.


I agree - that would be ideal and allow for upgrades on older locos, since the functioning of the new shaped metal telex coupler seems quite nice and appears to work very well. Cool
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by dickinsonj
Offline eduard71  
#33 Posted : 30 May 2021 19:46:09(UTC)
eduard71

Chile   
Joined: 27/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 273
Location: Santiago
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi Andy

From what you describe, your 39970 seems to be fine: the MFX part is OK and the Fx decoder re-initializes the pantograph at each power-up.
What is very likely happend to your unit happened to mine: the "other" decoder changed its address by itself (Checking on the Stummi forum and others I am not the only one.
You cannot change the decoder address as you would on other units.
The reason is the MFX decoder locks the other one (e.g.: when the car travels, all commands to the pantograph or the "Bühne"n (the moving platform).

So it leaves you with one solution (easy but takes time) check all the possible addresses for it. In my case it changed to address 04.
UserPostedImage

Cheers

Jean


Hi Jean, I have found this discussion because yesterday my 39970 also stop working with address 71, and for some reason I still don’t understand the address has changed its number. I realized that since there still was some movement at the moment of initialize the model so I decided to review all numbers and I found the number, now my model operates the pantograph with address 80. I don’t see if this solution was tested by others here but it could had be the problem.
Now regarding the address change, in the stunning forum one guy says it can be changed but using the 6021, it make sense since the 6021 will only work with MM protocol. I don’t have the 6021 but will try to borrow one from a friend that still like to use this old control and try to change the address to 71 again.

Regards

Eduardo

Offline Ross  
#34 Posted : 31 May 2021 02:13:05(UTC)
Ross

Australia   
Joined: 25/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 782
Location: Sydney, NSW
Hi All,

I have since had a failure with the Cat. maintenance car address as others have mentioned. Please read my Strange Bits Log Part 3 (Page 1) link below.

Strange Bits Log Part 3

Hope this helps.
Ross
Offline JohnjeanB  
#35 Posted : 31 May 2021 02:35:39(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,731
Location: Paris, France
Hi Ross
An excellent report matching exactly what I observed on my unit. Thanks
Sadly with age I also found that the 0.1 mm Nylon thread pulling down the pantograph is not flexible anymore preventing smooth operation and needs replacing.

Cheers
Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
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Offline eduard71  
#36 Posted : 01 June 2021 01:42:53(UTC)
eduard71

Chile   
Joined: 27/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 273
Location: Santiago
Hi,

Making some research in the Stummi forum I have found two important quotes.

One is that it says the problem of changing the decoder address from 71 to any other happens when you have your 39770 in the tracks and you do an MFX search fort lost locomotives. I did this before the locomotive changed the address. So probably this is the problem at least using the CS2 and CS3.
Regarding the possible solution to return to address 71, the only way is using a 6021.

Here is the translation of what a Stummi forum member says: "I changed the address with the CU 6021 - the way you do it:
stop - address 71 (now the address you have)- turn the button to the left and hold - go - wait a little - address 1 - change of direction - new address - change of direction - stop.
Nothing blinked, so you have to program the decoder while flying blind".
I don't have a 6021 to test but I would like to change the decoder address again to 71, I will see If a friend lend me a 6021 to test the change.

Regards

Eduardo



Offline H0  
#37 Posted : 01 June 2021 08:22:13(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: eduard71 Go to Quoted Post
Regarding the possible solution to return to address 71, the only way is using a 6021.
That is definitely wrong. I did it with an Intellibox.
There may be other controllers that can make this happen. It seems that with CS2/CS3 you can change the address accidentally.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline eduard71  
#38 Posted : 01 June 2021 15:12:37(UTC)
eduard71

Chile   
Joined: 27/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 273
Location: Santiago
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: eduard71 Go to Quoted Post
Regarding the possible solution to return to address 71, the only way is using a 6021.
That is definitely wrong. I did it with an Intellibox.
There may be other controllers that can make this happen. It seems that with CS2/CS3 you can change the address accidentally.



So you were able to change the address 71 with a Intellibox, can you share the way you do it? was trough CV or othrer way?

CS2/CS3 could accidentally change or trigger the change, what it is stated in the stummi forum is that after an MFX search this specific model changed the address 71 to a random number, some people has 04, other 24 and also 80 and other numbers. Using CS2/CS3 to change the fx number to 71 in the programming track does not work.

From my side it s going to be easy to find a 6021 to borrow than an Intellibox but if I found an intellibox I want to know how to do it.

Regards.
Offline H0  
#39 Posted : 01 June 2021 17:26:53(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: eduard71 Go to Quoted Post
So you were able to change the address 71 with a Intellibox, can you share the way you do it? was trough CV or othrer way?
The steps you use to change the address of programmable decoders, no special tricks needed.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline eduard71  
#40 Posted : 02 June 2021 04:34:29(UTC)
eduard71

Chile   
Joined: 27/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 273
Location: Santiago
Hi all,

Today I was able to change the secondary address to control the pantograph and the platform.

Following the instructions of one member of the Stummi forum and using an old 6021 controller, (it can also be made using an Intelibox) and probably other kind of controllers that use MM format, but not with new CS2-CS3 or MS.
In my case the secondary address moved from #71 to #80 (it is not yet clear why this decoder makes the change but using the MFX search function with this model in the track could be the trigger that makes change secundary decoder address alone).

Using a 6021 I started the process to change the secondary address:

Initialize the 6021 and press stop - input address 80 - turn the speed button to the left and hold - press go - wait a little - input address 01 - change of direction - new address (71 in my case to return to factory number) - change of direction - stop.
Nothing blinked, so you have to program the decoder while flying blind.

The first time I did it, instead of changing the secondary address, it changed the main MM address (#70 to 71#) so I got confused because the process didn't work. I tried again and nothing, secondary address was still in #80 and primary address in MM format changed from 70 to 71. So, I had the idea to go to my CS3, and map the MFX decoder main decoder of the model. Then in the format protocol section of the decoder I disabled the MM format. I then returned to the 6021 and test the model. With address 70 there was no movement or control, but in address 80, the pantograph and platform worked.
Now with the main decoder disabled in MM format I run the process again. This time the I did it as the Stummi forum member said, “you need to program the decoder while flying blind”. Important, the model lights should not blink, if they do, you are changing the main address and not the secondary.
I repeated the process and I wait a few seconds more after pressing go+ change of direction. I followed the next steps and input #71 change direction and finally stop.
After this the pantograph and platform started to work using #71 as it came from factory! Address changed!
As I final step I return to my CS3 and enable MM format again just in case I need to use pure MM format again.
It worked for me and I hope it helps anyone willing to return it's model to factory address 71 for the platform and pantograph.

Regards


Eduardo



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Offline cookee_nz  
#41 Posted : 02 June 2021 08:24:36(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,668
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Wow what a process but good that you got it nailed Eduardo.

I have one of these models myself, and a CS2 so I shall try to remember to take the Loco off the tracks if I'm ever searching for mfx loco.

By the way, I learned something when I was reading up about that particular Loco in an older Insider report.

The Pantograph is not to take power from the overhead - it's to 'ground' the overhead for safety while the engineers work on it.

And there's me quite happy to run mine around the track with the Panto up!! I guess I can be forgiven but just goes to show.



Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
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Offline Dave Banks  
#42 Posted : 03 June 2021 00:20:18(UTC)
Dave Banks

Australia   
Joined: 08/03/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,039
Location: Gold Coast, Australia.
Stephen I feel embarrassed to bring this up on this forum but it just dawned on me that I have this loco listed on my Ecos 50200 as an Electric loco (Photograph) being the giveaway despite it having a diesel engine sound. Well its been like that for years till I read your article. Your forgiven. I hope I can be as well. I fell such like such a dill Confused



D.A.Banks
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