Upgrading the locos with 60760 Decoder.

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Hics		#1 Posted : 29 March 2018 00:53:57(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/02/2018(UTC) Posts: 162 Location: England, St Ives		Hello. I'm thinking about upgrading my locos from analogue to digital. I found 60760 decoder. It is looking promising. As it comes to changing engine and decoder on old analogue loco to a new part I should be fine. But this set consist 5 pole engine 60941. Can I replace it in Delta loco without changing a decoder? The problem is that new engine has only have 2 cables going to it from decoder while old engine has 3 going from delta. Many thanks.


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franciscohg		#2 Posted : 29 March 2018 02:41:55(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC) Posts: 3,268 Location: Patagonia		Hi, no, the Delta engine is a standard AC engine. The five pole kit.is a DC engine thus having just 2 cables for being run from newer ( lots of years now ) decoders. If you want to keep the AC engine you must retain the delta module or getting a decoder capable to run a AC engine. Regards
		German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL


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kimballthurlow		#3 Posted : 29 March 2018 04:17:19(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC) Posts: 6,668 Location: Brisbane, Australia		Originally Posted by: Hics Hello. I'm thinking about upgrading my locos from analogue to digital. I found 60760 decoder. It is looking promising. As it comes to changing engine and decoder on old analogue loco to a new part I should be fine. But this set consist 5 pole engine 60941. Can I replace it in Delta loco without changing a decoder? The problem is that new engine has only have 2 cables going to it from decoder while old engine has 3 going from delta. Many thanks. Hi Hics, I have exactly the same query. Rayf on this forum uses the 60760 kit to upgrade many locos, so a search on his posts, or even a PM might do the trick. I suspect that Franciscohg is correct in his reply, because the good news is that the 60760 complete kit contains both the motor parts and the suitable decoder. The first candidate for this conversion is the 3456. Kimball
		HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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H0		#4 Posted : 29 March 2018 07:16:37(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,265 Location: DE-NW		Hi! Originally Posted by: Hics The problem is that new engine has only have 2 cables going to it from decoder while old engine has 3 going from delta. Not a problem if you know what you are doing. You can drive an old motor (3 wires) with a new decoder (2 wires dedicated for the motor), but not with the 60760 decoder. The problem is it is unclear what you are asking. Did you buy a 60760 decoder without motor parts? You will need some extra parts like capacitors if you do not have a permanent magnet for the motor.
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS


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Hics		#5 Posted : 29 March 2018 11:17:47(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/02/2018(UTC) Posts: 162 Location: England, St Ives		Thanks guys. I want to make two kinds of upgrades. 1. Full upgrade to a analogue loco. Replacing a motor and decoder with 60760 set. This should be easy. I mean in theory 2. Half upgrade to delta locos. Engine only. Replacing a motor with a 5 pole from a 60760 set. They can be bought easily on eBay for 15 euros. The connection is a problem.


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ktsolias		#6 Posted : 29 March 2018 11:34:05(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 01/05/2016(UTC) Posts: 610 Location: Athens		Hi The 60760 set is a cheap solution and working fine in most cases if you are need only basic control. But there are some limitations 1. Is only for DCM motors (motors with two rectangular brushes) 2. Has only headlights as function. There is an F3 function but is hidden. On the other side a DELTA decoder can work with a 5pole motor but need some modifications and on the other hand does not seem to offer a better performance. Anyway is not generally recommended, specially in these days. Is better to spend 10-15 more Euro for the hole 60760 set. The broken sets are good to use only the decoder with a 60943 or 60944 motor, or use the motor instant the 60941 motor. (same motor different price). Regards Costas


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H0		#7 Posted : 29 March 2018 11:47:15(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,265 Location: DE-NW		Originally Posted by: Hics 2. Half upgrade to delta locos. Engine only. Replacing a motor with a 5 pole from a 60760 set. Bad idea. Not worth the effort IMHO. Don't expect big improvements. See also: http://www.miba.de/miba/02/07/38.htm http://www.drkoenig.de/digital/dekodc.htm Originally Posted by: ktsolias 2. Has only headlights as function. There is an F3 function but is hidden. There also is F1.
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS

2 users liked this useful post by H0		ktsolias, kimballthurlow
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Hics		#8 Posted : 29 March 2018 13:53:07(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/02/2018(UTC) Posts: 162 Location: England, St Ives		Ok. As I understand I cant take 5 pole engine from 60760 and replace it in Delta. I mean I can but it is more work and it is complicated. Also there wont be a lot of improvement. Therefore if I want a new engine it is better to replace the whole kit. About 60760. I know it is simple solution with limitations but at this moment this will suit me. Better driving and directional lights is good enough. What is F3 hidden function?


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H0		#9 Posted : 29 March 2018 13:59:54(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,265 Location: DE-NW		Originally Posted by: Hics What is F3 hidden function? What you make it. You can use F1 for a smoke generator and F3 for a cab light. Or anything else - red rear lights (that do not change with the direction), long distance headlights, a sound module, ... F1 and F3 are not hidden, they are undocumented. One is logic level, one is amplified. You may need a transistor to use the logic level output. You have to remove the shrink tube and solder cables to the decoder PCB to use them. The TRAXX hobby locos also have a decoder like the 60760 - and there you also can use F1 and F3 to add more functions.
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS


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Hics		#10 Posted : 29 March 2018 14:20:23(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/02/2018(UTC) Posts: 162 Location: England, St Ives		Ok. I think I got all the answers. Decoders should arrive after Easter. As I replace them I will let you guys know. Thanks for replies.


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Hics		#11 Posted : 18 April 2018 10:48:47(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/02/2018(UTC) Posts: 162 Location: England, St Ives		Hehey. My first upgrade almost done. Almost because I'm waiting for LED's to replace old bulbs. Which resistor are you usually using? But unfortunately something is wrong. Because I still haven't finished conversion it might work after that but Vmax nad Vmin settings are not working. I can set up Vmax to any level but loco goes max speed anyway. Any reason for this?


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Hics		#12 Posted : 19 April 2018 00:54:31(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/02/2018(UTC) Posts: 162 Location: England, St Ives		I did lights tonight so process is fully finished but unfortunately there is a problem with the decoder. It works on its default address 78 and I cant chcange it. I cant change Vmax and Vmin. It is just not programing itself. I'm using MS2 ver 1.3. Other locos are working fine on it. I can change address, speed etc. What is going on?


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Hics		#13 Posted : 20 April 2018 15:40:56(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/02/2018(UTC) Posts: 162 Location: England, St Ives		Hehey, problem solved. It was all working fine. I was just an idiot while reprograming it but its a long story Now my next step is BR 216 with the same 60760 but this time with white in front and red at the back at the same time. And because 60760 has one function available I was thinking about some extra flashing orange light on the roof for kids. Btw, how can I access this function? Many thanks


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ktsolias		#14 Posted : 24 April 2018 09:42:53(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 01/05/2016(UTC) Posts: 610 Location: Athens		Originally Posted by: Hics Hehey, problem solved. It was all working fine. I was just an idiot while reprograming it but its a long story Now my next step is BR 216 with the same 60760 but this time with white in front and red at the back at the same time. And because 60760 has one function available I was thinking about some extra flashing orange light on the roof for kids. Btw, how can I access this function? Many thanks This is the way to do it First you have to take of the decoder from the plastic wrap very carefully. You need the base plate E456200 to put the decoder in the loco without the plastic wrap. The F3 function is ready for use and the only think is that you need to do the mapping through your controller to activate the function. The F1 is a logical function (U=5V+) and need to be amplified. In this plan from HGH you will find the diagram how to do this. Instend of the BST 51/52 (are difficult to find and are SMD) you can use another NPN transistor like the BC548B or BC548C. The value of the Resistor Rb could be 10k-50k (1/4 Watt). The power supply from the amplified F1 is enough for most cases, except in case that you want to control many consumers (train lights etc.). In this case you have to use a power transistor (BC639) or a relay. I have done this several times with excellent results. Of course you must have in mind the Alzheimer problem in some of the 60760 decoders. In this case you have to do a buffer. Hope this will help Costas


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Hics		#15 Posted : 24 April 2018 12:02:00(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/02/2018(UTC) Posts: 162 Location: England, St Ives		Originally Posted by: ktsolias This is the way to do it First you have to take of the decoder from the plastic wrap very carefully...... Costas Thanks Costas. I want to put a flickering orange LED on the roof. Kids love the idea. Will it work? And looks like so far my decoders don't have Alzheimer's problem. But, I have got another idea. I wanted to put a white LED in front and red at the back to flash at the same time. So I thought I can base it on bi-color LED like this https://www.ebay.co.uk/i...sid=p2057872.m2749.l2649 and the schematic looks like this But to my disappointment the LED flashes only as I swap wires: grey/yellow inside, orange outside. But as I do it (connect yellow for ex.) I cant connect grey any more to the same LED. Is my idea achievable? Thx. Seb


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ktsolias		#16 Posted : 24 April 2018 14:04:43(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 01/05/2016(UTC) Posts: 610 Location: Athens		Originally Posted by: Hics Originally Posted by: ktsolias This is the way to do it First you have to take of the decoder from the plastic wrap very carefully...... Costas Thanks Costas. I want to put a flickering orange LED on the roof. Kids love the idea. Will it work? And looks like so far my decoders don't have Alzheimer's problem. But, I have got another idea. I wanted to put a white LED in front and red at the back to flash at the same time. So I thought I can base it on bi-color LED like this https://www.ebay.co.uk/i...sid=p2057872.m2749.l2649 and the schematic looks like this But to my disappointment the LED flashes only as I swap wires: grey/yellow inside, orange outside. But as I do it (connect yellow for ex.) I cant connect grey any more to the same LED. Is my idea achievable? Thx. Seb Hi Seb With electronics everything is achievable!!!! With Märklin decoders you have to use bi-color LEDs with common anode(+).... The ones that you use have common cathode so they flash only when the grey or yellow wire (-) are connected to the cathode. You have to buy LEDs with common anode (orange wire). There are on ebay.de from many sellers. There are LEDs red etc that are flashing. Are very convenient because you don't need to do the circuit by yourself, something that is difficult in the space of a loco. Regards Costas


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Hics		#17 Posted : 24 April 2018 14:27:01(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/02/2018(UTC) Posts: 162 Location: England, St Ives		Originally Posted by: ktsolias With Märklin decoders you have to use bi-color LEDs with common anode(+).... The ones that you use have common cathode so they flash only when the grey or yellow wire (-) are connected to the cathode. You have to buy LEDs with common anode (orange wire). I see. The search has already begun Originally Posted by: ktsolias There are LEDs red etc that are flashing. Are very convenient because you don't need to do the circuit by yourself, something that is difficult in the space of a loco Yep, that's what I have already ordered: 3mm Flashing / Flickering Orange. But as I did a test yesterday, as soon as I connected red one the white stopped flashing. It looked like a red was using all the power available. Is there enough power to supply 2 LED's at the same time? What resistors should I put? I used 2kohm for white and 1kohm for red.


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Hics		#18 Posted : 24 April 2018 16:54:46(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/02/2018(UTC) Posts: 162 Location: England, St Ives		Originally Posted by: ktsolias With Märklin decoders you have to use bi-color LEDs with common anode(+).... The ones that you use have common cathode so they flash only when the grey or yellow wire (-) are connected to the cathode. You have to buy LEDs with common anode (orange wire) I'm a little confused. I searched for it but it looks like I already bough one with common anode. Am I not? https://www.ebay.co.uk/i...sid=p2057872.m2749.l2649 So maybe it should be with common cathode?


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TEEWolf		#19 Posted : 24 April 2018 17:50:53(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC) Posts: 2,465		Originally Posted by: Hics Hello. I'm thinking about upgrading my locos from analogue to digital. I found 60760 decoder. It is looking promising. As it comes to changing engine and decoder on old analogue loco to a new part I should be fine. But this set consist 5 pole engine 60941. Can I replace it in Delta loco without changing a decoder? The problem is that new engine has only have 2 cables going to it from decoder while old engine has 3 going from delta. Many thanks. Amazing, Märklin does offer the "c 90 neu \| Gauge H0 - Article No. 60760 Digital High Efficiency Propulsion Set" again! https://www.maerklin.de/...s/details/article/60760/ So of course you get the manual again. https://static.maerklin....ada4ea1dbd1489746944.pdf I found an old thread about the 60760 here at marklin-users.net too. https://www.marklin-user...2871-problems-with-60760 Especially post #4, 7 and #12 are very interesting to me. @Webmaster offers in his post a very helpful link to a PDF file about the 60760 decoder. In additon I refer to other websites as "Svein's Märklin site" (in English) http://www.saebonet.com/ "Andy's Seite" (in German) https://www.ad-soft.ch/m...l-marklin-decoder-60760/ and "Rainers Modellbahn" (in German/Swiss ) https://www.stayathome.ch/Diesellok_RAG.htm with plenty of information for digital convertions and the 60760 decoder set. It is very interesting to me too. I just bought a BR 184 in this Märklin train set "rolling road" from 2000/2001 with a Delta decoder on board. https://www.maerklin.de/...s/details/article/26531/
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ktsolias		#20 Posted : 24 April 2018 21:46:21(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 01/05/2016(UTC) Posts: 610 Location: Athens		It is very interesting to me too. I just bought a BR 184 in this Märklin train set "rolling road" from 2000/2001 with a Delta decoder on board. https://www.maerklin.de/...s/details/article/26531/ Hi The Br 184 from the 26531 set is not a DELTA. Is digital loco with the 6090 set decoder and motor (60941) DC 5pole. Of course only one function (front - rear lights flickering...) Costas


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Hics		#21 Posted : 24 April 2018 21:57:38(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/02/2018(UTC) Posts: 162 Location: England, St Ives		Originally Posted by: ktsolias Hi The Br 184 from the 26531 set is not a DELTA. Is digital loco with the 6090 set decoder and motor (60941) DC 5pole. it is even better for him. I think he didn't expect this. a nice surprise.


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TEEWolf		#22 Posted : 24 April 2018 23:22:31(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC) Posts: 2,465		Originally Posted by: ktsolias Hi The Br 184 from the 26531 set is not a DELTA. Is digital loco with the 6090 set decoder and motor (60941) DC 5pole. Of course only one function (front - rear lights flickering...) Costas Hello Costas, thanks, indeed I am a little bit worried, because there were two different sets, which differs (as far as I see it by Märklin's website) only by the motor and the decoder. One has the art #26531 (which I bought) https://www.maerklin.de/...s/details/article/26531/ and art #28531 https://www.maerklin.de/...s/details/article/28531/ The 28531 has the Delta system, whereas the 26531 has the 60941 motor set, but which decoder? Is it a 6090 one? Since the mSD3 is available it is not too tragic, because both sets does not have sound on board. Now it is always worthwhile to think about a decoder change. But first I have to get the set. regards TEEWolf
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ktsolias		#23 Posted : 24 April 2018 23:42:56(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 01/05/2016(UTC) Posts: 610 Location: Athens		I have the 26531 set "Rollende Landstrasse" The motor and decoder are the 6090 set you can find a lot of info's about this set as in 1990 was the first DC motor for Marklin open motors. Of course the loco is excellent but you are right the decoder is a bit obsolete. But you can replace the decoder with a modern one even with sound (there is plenty of space into the loco) plus LED lights I have change the lights in my with LEDs flickering free using the Waterstone contact and resistors of course. The other are original and I am happy with the loco According to Koll the Lok is the 37310.10 (Koll's classification) Regards Costas


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Hics		#24 Posted : 24 April 2018 23:51:27(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/02/2018(UTC) Posts: 162 Location: England, St Ives		Hey guus! How about my problem? 😉


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TEEWolf		#25 Posted : 25 April 2018 01:07:12(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC) Posts: 2,465		Originally Posted by: Hics Hey guus! How about my problem? 😉 Sorry I thought your motor/decoder problem was solved. Regarding to the flickering lights - honestly, I am only thinking about solutions to get rid off flickering lights and not to install them. Do not know why, but I got more flickering lights in some coaches as I like to get. Especially in my old cars from the analogue time and probably a ground problem with my old tin plate coaches. But I am not very much experienced yet. On the other hand, it is funny (particularly for kids) to get flickering lights in different directions and colours, if you can controll it. I would install an own function decoder to controll all different conditions. Just remember the disco wagon from Märklin. Was not cheap because of its decoder inside, but for some people definitely a funny flickering music coach.
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Hics		#26 Posted : 25 April 2018 13:08:47(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/02/2018(UTC) Posts: 162 Location: England, St Ives		Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Sorry I thought your motor/decoder problem was solved Well, sort off. Looks like I was sold CC LED's instead of CA. Therefore my front / rear light was not working. But I have another one but it is on a main page so everyone can see it.


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