Help On 6646 + 6600 Connections

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Trigster		#1 Posted : 20 December 2017 05:17:10(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 03/12/2017(UTC) Posts: 19 Location: S.F. Bay Area		Hello All I Hope This Question Makes Some Sense... I've used a 6600 Speed Controller in the past and I'm AOK with the basic wiring connections... After connecting the 6600 to the 6646 the Main Power & Ground Connection Ports on the 6646 are unused... Can I use those connections on the 6646 to power an independent 'Feeder Track' that's totally isolated from the 6600 ??? If 'YES' can I just leave a Train sitting 'Dead' on an isolated section of track with its own independent feeder with just the power of the 6646 at Zero or is it preferable to run the power for the feeder through an On/Off Control Box ???... Is it bad for a Loco to leave them just sitting on an active section of track even with the power at Zero ???... An example would be a 2 Track Station...1 track straight through and the other a 'Siding' as the back half of the Station... The Back (siding) Section would have isolators at each end and a Feeder Track of its own... The Front Section would have a 5146 Control Track and be on the same feeders that power that Loop... The Main Loop draws its power through the 6600...The Siding draws its power from the 6646...Isolated... A variation would be powering a 2nd isolated Loop with the 6646...If I could do that would there be any problems passing a Train from one Loop to the next...1 Loop Powered By The 6600...The 2nd Loop Powered By The 6646 ??? Is this a No No ???...Anyone see a problem using those 'Free' power connections on the 6646 ??? Any Help Or Opinions Would Be Graetly Appreciated...Sorry To Be So Wordy...Thanks Much...Trig


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Markus Schild		#2 Posted : 20 December 2017 10:10:05(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 14/01/2006(UTC) Posts: 1,802 Location: Wurttemberg		Hi Trig, Yes, you can use the red+brown connection of the 6646 for a second circuit. You also can connect the rails but must insulate the center-rail. Please avoid that a train remains on the insolation-section for a longer time and so the slider connects the two circuits for a longer time. Be aware that the 6646 has a limited capacity and that also the 6600 itself needs some power. You can run surely two loco, but I don't know what happens if there are two fully illuminated trains. Nothing will be destroyed, in the worst case it just does not work, or the trains are slow. If the power is zero, there is 0V at the rails. Nothing will happen to anything. Regards Markus
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Trigster		#3 Posted : 20 December 2017 10:52:30(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 03/12/2017(UTC) Posts: 19 Location: S.F. Bay Area		Originally Posted by: Markus Schild Hi Trig, Yes, you can use the red+brown connection of the 6646 for a second circuit. You also can connect the rails but must insulate the center-rail. Please avoid that a train remains on the insolation-section for a longer time and so the slider connects the two circuits for a longer time. Be aware that the 6646 has a limited capacity and that also the 6600 itself needs some power. You can run surely two loco, but I don't know what happens if there are two fully illuminated trains. Nothing will be destroyed, in the worst case it just does not work, or the trains are slow. If the power is zero, there is 0V at the rails. Nothing will happen to anything. Regards Markus Hello Markus...Thanks So Much For Such A Clear Answer !!! That kind'a puts my mind at ease...I thought it was AOK but nice to have confirmation...My Layout will be a smallish 4 x 8 with 3 Main Lines all powered by their own 6646...At that size I don't plan on ever running more than 1 Train on any one of the 'Loops' at any one time...All my old gear is analog and very limited lighting so my power needs are pretty low... Thanks Again...Best Regards...Trig ______________________________________ Also...For anyone interested here's a link to a 2.79mb PDF File of the 6600 Users Manual... http://www.digital-train...lin/Maerklin_6600_UK.pdf


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mike c		#4 Posted : 21 December 2017 16:12:02(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC) Posts: 8,279 Location: Montreal, QC		IMPORTANT When combining two devices, like a 6600 Delta Controller and 6647 transformer or a 6021 Control Unit and a 6647 transformer, you need to do more than have a simple isolator on the central rail. A locomotive or car/coach with a slider will bridge the two circuits, which can allow AC voltage from the 6647 to bleed into the output of the 6600 or 6012, which can damage the output transistors and circuit. A rocker on the third rail is one way, but the best recommendation is as follows: If you intend to use such a set up, I recommend that you include in your track plan a switchable insulated section between the two circuits. This would be a track with sufficient length that you can drive a train on one circuit, stop, then cut the power for that section and switch it to the other circuit, thereby avoiding the bridging that can occur when trains pass from one circuit to the other. This would replicate in model the way that AC and DC catenaries are separated from each other in border stations. Regards Mike C


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Trigster		#5 Posted : 21 December 2017 21:08:48(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 03/12/2017(UTC) Posts: 19 Location: S.F. Bay Area		Originally Posted by: mike c IMPORTANT When combining two devices, like a 6600 Delta Controller and 6647 transformer or a 6021 Control Unit and a 6647 transformer, you need to do more than have a simple isolator on the central rail. A locomotive or car/coach with a slider will bridge the two circuits, which can allow AC voltage from the 6647 to bleed into the output of the 6600 or 6012, which can damage the output transistors and circuit. A rocker on the third rail is one way, but the best recommendation is as follows: If you intend to use such a set up, I recommend that you include in your track plan a switchable insulated section between the two circuits. This would be a track with sufficient length that you can drive a train on one circuit, stop, then cut the power for that section and switch it to the other circuit, thereby avoiding the bridging that can occur when trains pass from one circuit to the other. This would replicate in model the way that AC and DC catenaries are separated from each other in border stations. Regards Mike C Mike C Thanks Much !!!...I believe I had read somewhere long ago regarding the issue you describe...I think maybe I'm just being a bit greedy or too cute with my design because ultimately I don't need to use the power from the 6646...And that power is available as 'Markus' described for any possible extension that would be 'Totally Isolated' from the 6600...It's a very tight layout and I'll never be running more than a single train on any Loop at once...And !!! That's more a potential 'Crash' concern than an under powered issue !!! Ultimately, as I've had a chance to think it through I'm probably better off powering the 'Siding' and the 'Loop' with the 6600 and just isolating the 'Siding' and using an on/off switch for it's feeder...The wiring itself isn't any more or less difficult but the plus would be not having to regulate the power from 2 different supplies for such a small/short length of track... Such Valuable Information From Both You & Markus...I'd think it maybe helpful to others like me...Who've come to a time in their life when they can haul out the 'Old Gear' and use it !!!...I have to believe there are many approaching the right age who just might have one of those...Fancy Schmansy Speed Controllers...They were a very cool little item in their day...And Still Are !!!...Thanks Again...Trig


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Markus Schild		#6 Posted : 21 December 2017 21:15:24(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 14/01/2006(UTC) Posts: 1,802 Location: Wurttemberg		Hi, Don't be confused. The 6600 has nothing to do with the DELTA or DIGITAL devices Mike talks about. It is just an analogue control panel with some electronics. I run them since decades mixed with regular transformers and only with an insulated centre - rail. When the 6600 appeared Märklin even didn't offer those rockers and nobody thought even about that. Regards Markus
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Trigster		#7 Posted : 21 December 2017 22:18:12(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 03/12/2017(UTC) Posts: 19 Location: S.F. Bay Area		Originally Posted by: Markus Schild Hi, Don't be confused. The 6600 has nothing to do with the DELTA or DIGITAL devices Mike talks about. It is just an analogue control panel with some electronics. I run them since decades mixed with regular transformers and only with an insulated centre - rail. When the 6600 appeared Märklin even didn't offer those rockers and nobody thought even about that. Regards Markus Thanks Markus...I'll keep that in mind...I do seem to remember my previous layout did have that 'Momentary' mixing of the 2 from one circuit to the next across an isolation point with no ill effects... This diagram is posted elsewhere but I though I'd put it here as well that the item I'm inquiring about can be in clear context...And it really is a small item...But I am trying to do it kind'a right !!! It's really just my looking at the possibilities of how to best power the back section (Siding) of the Station (Yellow) to be able to have a Full Train just sitting there until it's needed... As I mentioned I'm leaning towards just powering the Loop & Siding with the 6600 if for no other reason than to not have to regulate the power on a 'Pass' from one circuit to the next... The 4 'Gray' Feeders are all isolated with the 3 'Yards' being powered by the Transformer controlling the 'Inner Loop'...It is a busy little layout All the isolation points are marked with the 'Black' Spray Paint Dots...Trig


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mike c		#8 Posted : 21 December 2017 22:27:27(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC) Posts: 8,279 Location: Montreal, QC		I mention Delta and Digital for two reasons only. 1) because the 6600 is NOT compatible with Maerklin loks with Delta or Digital Chips or Decoders and 2) because the 6600 contains electronics, it's output terminals are adversely affected by any input of straight AC voltage that would occur if a slider were to bridge sections controlled by the 6600 and a regular transformer. It can be used in parallel with a regular transformer, but the two must be isolated so as to prevent even momentary bridging, the same precaution which must be taken with Delta or Digital controllers when used alongside analog transformers. If you want to use the 6600, it might not be a bad idea to obtain a second one and use one for each circuit. See: http://www.digital-train...lin/Maerklin_6600_UK.pdf According to posts in the German Stummi forum, the 6600 generates a reverse pulse that can be as high as 45V. This will almost certainly kill any modern decoder and potentially also any older 6090/6080 or Delta chip. I do not know whether this warning also includes any electronic reverse unit. The 6600 was technology that existed at the end of the 1970s and was phased out when digital was introduced. I think that if you have any intention of using modern models, you may wish to phase out the 6600 and find another solution. Regards Mike C


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Trigster		#9 Posted : 21 December 2017 22:58:26(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 03/12/2017(UTC) Posts: 19 Location: S.F. Bay Area		Originally Posted by: mike c I mention Delta and Digital for two reasons only. 1) because the 6600 is NOT compatible with Maerklin loks with Delta or Digital Chips or Decoders and 2) because the 6600 contains electronics, it's output terminals are adversely affected by any input of straight AC voltage that would occur if a slider were to bridge sections controlled by the 6600 and a regular transformer. It can be used in parallel with a regular transformer, but the two must be isolated so as to prevent even momentary bridging, the same precaution which must be taken with Delta or Digital controllers when used alongside analog transformers. If you want to use the 6600, it might not be a bad idea to obtain a second one and use one for each circuit. See: http://www.digital-train...lin/Maerklin_6600_UK.pdf Regards Mike C Thanks...And that has been a concern as well...With the possibility of just not using the 6600...But I do enjoy its function but I don't forsee my owning any Delta or Digital Loco's in the near future...I have a fairly nice small selection of 'Older' well cared for Loco's and they are readily available on eBay with a bit of careful shopping...It's such an Odd-Ball little layout I'm not sure I'll ever have anything Digital...Never is a long time though !!! I'd found that 'Link' you posted a couple of weeks ago it's very valuable information...For 'Anybody' re-learning their older gear...If you have a 6600 do copy the PDF File from that link !!! I Really Appreciate All The Input and I might actually have a Train Board to build on in the next few weeks... Best Regards...Trig


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Markus Schild		#10 Posted : 21 December 2017 22:59:08(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 14/01/2006(UTC) Posts: 1,802 Location: Wurttemberg		Hi Mike, The output-side of the 6600 is protected by two large diodes (1N5402). Nothing can happen, even if it is directly connected to 50VAC at red and brown. Regards Markus
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Trigster		#11 Posted : 21 December 2017 23:45:09(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 03/12/2017(UTC) Posts: 19 Location: S.F. Bay Area		Originally Posted by: Markus Schild Hi Mike, The output-side of the 6600 is protected by two large diodes (1N5402). Nothing can happen, even if it is directly connected to 50VAC at red and brown. Regards Markus Sometimes I Just Can't See The Forest Through The Trees...If I use the 6600 I'll still have 4 additional pass-throughs at the Double Slip Switches connecting the 3 Mains...And that is an identical set-up to the layout I had in the past...Seems my biggest thing to remember is that the odds of 'Smok'in' a newer engine on this layout with the 6600 would be very high...That would seem to be the major limitation... All such good food for thought...Just seems it'll be much easier to power the siding off the 6600 and toggle the siding feeder with an on/off switch...I do best when I stick with Ol' K.I.S.S. I Do Appreciate The Input...And I am hopeful that maybe somebody else like me might read in and learn a thing or two...Thanks Again...Trig


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kiwiAlan		#12 Posted : 21 December 2017 23:51:29(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC) Posts: 8,553 Location: ENGLAND, Didcot		Originally Posted by: Markus Schild Hi Mike, The output-side of the 6600 is protected by two large diodes (1N5402). Nothing can happen, even if it is directly connected to 50VAC at red and brown. Regards Markus I wouldn't want to try, yes those diodes are beefy, but that won't necessarily stop damage when connected as you suggest. I would suggest they are there to stop inductive spikes from the motors in the locos from damaging the output stage of the 6600.


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Trigster		#13 Posted : 22 December 2017 02:39:32(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 03/12/2017(UTC) Posts: 19 Location: S.F. Bay Area		Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Originally Posted by: Markus Schild Hi Mike, The output-side of the 6600 is protected by two large diodes (1N5402). Nothing can happen, even if it is directly connected to 50VAC at red and brown. Regards Markus I wouldn't want to try, yes those diodes are beefy, but that won't necessarily stop damage when connected as you suggest. I would suggest they are there to stop inductive spikes from the motors in the locos from damaging the output stage of the 6600. Thanks...It sounds like some may feel those pass-throughs may damage the 6600...I am quite sure my previous set-up had 1 Loop controlled in exactly that fashion withou any trouble...As time goes by if the 6600 dies on me I'll be no worse off than not using it at all...Which will remain a possibility until I actually start laying track...But I'm definitly not planning on controlling the whole layout with 6600 controllers...And there is one other thing of which I'm quite sure...With 19 switches and all the other bit of this & that I've got...I think I've gone just a little over-board on what's reasonable in a 4 x 8 layout...Oh Well...It Will Be Fun !!!...Trig


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