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Offline applor  
#1 Posted : 21 April 2017 06:51:07(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,652
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Hi all,

I am after some clarification on what signals are used to facilitate the changeover of loks to ensure my signal setup is correct.

For example at stations with a BW or end of a route, a lok would need to de-couple from the train and arrive at the BW for servicing and a new lok attached to the train to continue the journey.

From what I have been reading, it would seem each line where this would occur would require a home signal (Hp) to control the train and also require a station signal (Gleisperrsignal Sh) to facilitate the movement of locomotive only to travel to the BW.

I have also read repeatedly that the use of signals is intentionally limited when not necessary to save on cost and complexity - in the above case would a Hp signal only suffice to also allow movement of the Lok?

Here is a picture of my main station area, where I had intended this manoeuvre to be possible from each direction, the branch line and the freight line as well (platforms 1,3,4 and 6)
This would require an additional 6 Sh signals however...

Thanks for reading and your knowledge.

Station_BW.jpg

Edited by user 24 April 2017 05:46:46(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
Offline Alsterstreek  
#2 Posted : 23 April 2017 10:06:10(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,664
Location: Hybrid Home
Was this topic not already covered in this thread?
https://www.marklin-user...or-new-layout#post519764

Otherwise you need to consult the source for such a specific question:
11_eso.pdf;jsessionid=F529D2101BBACCDC3B6072D8BC1E1FAC.live21303.pdf (1,765kb) downloaded 106 time(s).

Courtesy of the German Federal Railway Authority (German: Eisenbahn-Bundesamt, EBA).
https://www.eba.bund.de/...=publicationFile&v=5
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Offline Robert Davies  
#3 Posted : 23 April 2017 14:58:21(UTC)
Robert Davies

United Kingdom   
Joined: 20/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 426
Location: Worcestershire, UK
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
Hi all,

I am after some clarification on what signals are used to facilitate the changeover of loks to ensure my signal setup is correct.

For example at stations with a BW or end of a route, a lok would need to de-couple from the train and arrive at the BW for servicing and a new lok attached to the train to continue the journey.

From what I have been reading, it would seem each line where this would occur would require a home signal (Hp) to control the train and also require a station signal (Gleisperrsignal Sh) to facilitate the movement of locomotive only to travel to the BW.

I have also read repeatedly that the use of signals is intentionally limited when not necessary to save on cost and complexity - in the above case would a Hp signal only suffice to also allow movement of the Lok?

Here is a picture of my main station area, where I had intended this manoeuvre to be possible from each direction, the branch line and the freight line as well (platforms 1,3,4 and 6)
This would require an additional 6 Sh signals however...

Thanks for reading and your knowledge.

I am sorry I didn't pick up on the original post - it slipped past somehow. Looking at the original proposals, they look fine so far as I can see but this is my understanding of the different signal types. Somebody please correct me if this is wrong.

An Hp signal is a main running signal. It gives authority to enter a station or to leave a station and run through the main line section to the next signalbox. Therefore an Hp signal would not be used for shunting movements.

For shunting there are three possibilities -
Verbal authority only - For use at lightly used stations where the signalling is basic or none at all
Gleissperrsignal (Sh0/Sh1) - When in the 'Proceed' position, these signals can still only be passed with a verbal instruction and are used to shunt on to main running lines or other running lines where shunting conflicts might occur. A clear understanding has to be reached between the loco driver and the shunter/station master as to what is going to happen, hence the need for a verbal instruction.
Wartesignal (Ra11) - These signals can be acted upon by the driver as soon as they are cleared and require no authority from a third party. Hence they are limited to pure shunting movements into or between sidings where no conflicts are likely. Bear in mind that when first introduced, the Ra11 signal had no signal lights and it too required a verbal authority to pass but when the Ra11 was given the two white lights, this removed that requirement.

It is therefore my opinion that for a loco to go straight from a station track to the Bw a Ra11 signal is sufficient. However if the movement has to use a main arrival or departure line, then a Gs is needed instead.
One thing I am not sure about is whether it is a Ra11 or a Gs that is the right signal to leave the Bw. I have seen pictures of both used in this situation but whether you have a free choice or whether what happens once you leave the Bw is the determining factor, I do not know.

I have seen many pictures of Christmas-tree configurations with Hp, Gs, Ra and Vr signals at the same spot, not to mention speed signs and Zs1 indicators. Try this for size!

123-1-4_Zwergsignal_Hanau_86xxxx_filtered.jpg
Robert
Era III - IV
2 x Central Station 2 v.2 (60214 + 60215)
Hardware versions 3.6 / 4.33
Software version 4.2.1 (0)
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Offline Robert Davies  
#4 Posted : 23 April 2017 15:02:29(UTC)
Robert Davies

United Kingdom   
Joined: 20/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 426
Location: Worcestershire, UK
Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post

Otherwise you need to consult the source for such a specific question:
11_eso.pdf;jsessionid=F529D2101BBACCDC3B6072D8BC1E1FAC.live21303.pdf (1,765kb) downloaded 106 time(s).

Courtesy of the German Federal Railway Authority (German: Eisenbahn-Bundesamt, EBA).
https://www.eba.bund.de/...=publicationFile&v=5

Wow! Where has this document been all my life??!! All I've got to do now is translate it!! Crying Confused BigGrin
Robert
Era III - IV
2 x Central Station 2 v.2 (60214 + 60215)
Hardware versions 3.6 / 4.33
Software version 4.2.1 (0)
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#5 Posted : 23 April 2017 19:18:23(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,664
Location: Hybrid Home
This German Stummiforum post (see #15) gives a synopsis:
https://stummiforum.de/v...pic.php?f=27&t=54280

Originally Posted by: Robert Davies Go to Quoted Post
One thing I am not sure about is whether it is a Ra11 or a Gs that is the right signal to leave the Bw.

Steam BW exit secured with RA 11 ("W") to the left of the roundhouse wall:
DR-Dampf-58-1725-im-Bw-Drehscheibe-800-517.jpg
Note also the use- and buffer-less stub tracks pointing at the passing siding to the left of the turntable.
http://www.voba-medien.de
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Offline applor  
#6 Posted : 24 April 2017 03:05:05(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,652
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Hi Robert,

Thanks for your post. Yes I have also read that the Hp signals are for control of a train (whereby train means lok + rollingstock on a route) and that otherwise either the Sh or Ra11 signals are used for control inside a stations boundaries.
That's a great picture you have shared, I have some as well (see below)

The problem I have is I have a lot of arrival/departure platforms. I have two for the main line (one in each direction), one for the branch line (bi-directional, so two signals) and also my freight arrival track (also bi-directional, so two signals).
I wonder if this arrangement is unrealistic and perhaps I should modify the layout before I start building that area. Or perhaps the freight track should not be used with Hp signals but then that would require further changes.

Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post
Was this topic not already covered in this thread?
https://www.marklin-user...or-new-layout#post519764


Hi AK,

That signal thread the discussion was about the entry/exit track and within the BW area confines but it was not discussed as to the other signals required (Ra11 or Sh) on the actual platforms to allow loks to leave the platform and travel to the BW.

To clarify, I have de-coupler tracks on each of the platforms where a train would stop and realised in hindsight I had not thought enough about how a lok would de-couple and gain clearance to leave the platform, drive around to the BW entry track and then enter the BW.
You can see from the my signals thread that you reference that I only have Hp signals on the platforms and this discussion is about what additional signals are required for the above lok movements, given that the Hp signals are only to be used for trains, not lok movements.

I have been looking through my books and have some examples, though I don't speak german and the pictures don't give you the full overview of how they are being applied.

Here are some pictures showing platforms with a Hp signal as well as a Ra11. I am guessing the Ra11 is relevant for loks that need to de-couple and swap out.
The last picture shows a Hp signal with a Sh signal for what I am guessing is the same purpose.
This leads me to believe that perhaps either Ra11 or Sh signals are acceptable use, assuming that their purpose is for lok/shunting movements


bahnhof_signal_1.jpg
bahnhof_signal_2.jpg
bahnhof_signal_3.jpg
bahnhof_signal_4.jpg
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
Offline Alsterstreek  
#7 Posted : 24 April 2017 09:58:28(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,664
Location: Hybrid Home
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post
Was this topic not already covered in this thread?
https://www.marklin-user...or-new-layout#post519764
That signal thread the discussion was about the entry/exit track and within the BW area confines but it was not discussed as to the other signals required (Ra11 or Sh) on the actual platforms to allow loks to leave the platform and travel to the BW....
You can see from the my signals thread that you reference that I only have Hp signals on the platforms and this discussion is about what additional signals are required for the above lok movements, given that the Hp signals are only to be used for trains, not lok movements.
Well, as Robert demonstrated, the same principles apply for the platform tracks, i.e. Hp plus Ra11 or Sh (and dispatcher instructions). And had Robert known about the existence of the prior thread, he would not have been tempted to ponder on the BW entry/exit issue again.

Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
I wonder if this arrangement is unrealistic and perhaps I should modify the layout before I start building that area. Or perhaps the freight track should not be used with Hp signals but then that would require further changes.
You do not want to use tracks 1, 2 & 3 (counting from the left) for your loco shunting adventures, do you? This would require "zig-zag" maneuvers fouling the twin track mainline.

Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
Here are some pictures showing platforms with a Hp signal as well as a Ra11. I am guessing the Ra11 is relevant for loks that need to de-couple and swap out.
The last picture shows a Hp signal with a Sh signal for what I am guessing is the same purpose.
This leads me to believe that perhaps either Ra11 or Sh signals are acceptable use, assuming that their purpose is for lok/shunting movements
„Voila“, nice pictures confirming all of the aforementioned. I am resting my case.
Offline applor  
#8 Posted : 25 April 2017 01:27:22(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,652
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post
Was this topic not already covered in this thread?
https://www.marklin-user...or-new-layout#post519764
That signal thread the discussion was about the entry/exit track and within the BW area confines but it was not discussed as to the other signals required (Ra11 or Sh) on the actual platforms to allow loks to leave the platform and travel to the BW....
You can see from the my signals thread that you reference that I only have Hp signals on the platforms and this discussion is about what additional signals are required for the above lok movements, given that the Hp signals are only to be used for trains, not lok movements.
Well, as Robert demonstrated, the same principles apply for the platform tracks, i.e. Hp plus Ra11 or Sh (and dispatcher instructions). And had Robert known about the existence of the prior thread, he would not have been tempted to ponder on the BW entry/exit issue again.

My apologies if you think I should have posted in the other thread and have been wasting time.

I came across this picture last night which I had already scanned, so I still want to share it:

CCI25042017_00000.jpg

modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
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Offline applor  
#9 Posted : 25 April 2017 01:29:39(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,652
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
I wonder if this arrangement is unrealistic and perhaps I should modify the layout before I start building that area. Or perhaps the freight track should not be used with Hp signals but then that would require further changes.
You do not want to use tracks 1, 2 & 3 (counting from the left) for your loco shunting adventures, do you? This would require "zig-zag" maneuvers fouling the twin track mainline.


Yes that's right I don't want to have to use those main platforms for lok shunting, however platforms 1 and 3 are the main arrival platforms so that is where they would be...
Platform 2 is a pass-through/run-around platform which would be needed for those zig-zag maneuvers too.
I cannot see how I could avoid the situation unless I re-designed the station?
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
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Offline applor  
#10 Posted : 25 April 2017 03:25:28(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,652
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
I also wanted to mention that from what I have seen, regardless of the station setup there will always be zig-zag movements required for loks to access the BW - depending on the direction they have come from.

Lets take for example the station you mentioned in my layout thread ,Bahnbetriebswerk Uelzen

https://www.marklin-user...rce.ashx?p=33115&b=1

If for example we have a passenger train arriving on the Eastern side from Hannover (heading north) and stopping at the platform.
If the locomotive needs to be changed, it would need to be de-coupled and then:
travels north until it clears the points which are then changed
reverses and travels south until it clears the next points which are then changed
and then finally travels north again so it can enter the turntable/roundhouse

The same zig-zag movement would be required for trains on the Western side coming from Bremen (heading south) and stopping at the platform.
In this case we cannot see the points below the picture which would allow it to reverse back towards the BW.

Unless I am mis-understanding train movements, is it not true that every station with a BW would have similar zig-zag movements?
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#11 Posted : 25 April 2017 03:32:52(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
yes, unless a loco 'lives' only on one side of the mainline, it has to cross the mainline (zig zagging to do so) to get to the Bw. Only way around that would be to have an under/over pass track. I suspect that when the station starts getting too busy to allow this kind of movement, the trains start getting assembled elsewhere and are then brought into the station after assembly and vice versa.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#12 Posted : 25 April 2017 13:59:58(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,664
Location: Hybrid Home
My concern is not a zig-zag operation in itself, but a (unnecessary) fouling of the (busy) double-track mainline. Swiftly crossing a main line is something different than blocking it for shunting.

A station like Uelzen had (or has) intricate station throats and operating rules to minimize interference for locos shunting inside yard perimeters, which cannot be replicated in the "normal" MRR world. Compared to that, your condensed station layout resulted in awkward situations when using tracks 1 - 3 (counting from the left) for exchanging locos.

For the sake of pragmatism, not every main line passenger track needs to be prepared for the worst case scenario. A large passenger station had (or has) loco pockets or switching leads. While your station is lacking a loco pocket, the branch line doubles as switching lead. Consequently, any shunting in tracks 4 - 6 (counting from the left), using the branch line as switching lead, does not foul the double track main line.

Even or the sake of realism, not every main line passenger track needs to be prepared for the worst case scenario. Focusing on a limited number of tracks for shunting applies also to a big passenger station: Looking at the track plan of the gigantic Hamburg central station and the BW location between the junction to Lübeck and Hannover (BW street address is Högerdamm), it becomes evident that the BW serves only a limited and selected number of platform tracks in the middle of the station where trains terminate and/or change the direction of travel.
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Offline Robert Davies  
#13 Posted : 25 April 2017 23:30:04(UTC)
Robert Davies

United Kingdom   
Joined: 20/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 426
Location: Worcestershire, UK
Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post
This German Stummiforum post (see #15) gives a synopsis:
https://stummiforum.de/v...pic.php?f=27&t=54280

Originally Posted by: Robert Davies Go to Quoted Post
One thing I am not sure about is whether it is a Ra11 or a Gs that is the right signal to leave the Bw.

Steam BW exit secured with RA 11 ("W") to the left of the roundhouse wall:
DR-Dampf-58-1725-im-Bw-Drehscheibe-800-517.jpg

Well, Yes, but ...
Here is a not-very-good scan of Bw Osnabruck. If you look carefully at the top right-hand side it has Sh0/1 signals at its exit (see blow up picture), hence my confusion. As I said, I suspect that it is what happens once you leave the Bw that determines the type of exit signal.

Bw Osnabruck signals.jpgBw Osnabruck.jpg
Robert
Era III - IV
2 x Central Station 2 v.2 (60214 + 60215)
Hardware versions 3.6 / 4.33
Software version 4.2.1 (0)
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Offline Robert Davies  
#14 Posted : 25 April 2017 23:40:56(UTC)
Robert Davies

United Kingdom   
Joined: 20/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 426
Location: Worcestershire, UK
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post

bahnhof_signal_2.jpg

This is a good picture because it shows (the back of) Hp, Sh and Ra11 signals applying to the same track (to the left of the loco as we look at it).
Robert
Era III - IV
2 x Central Station 2 v.2 (60214 + 60215)
Hardware versions 3.6 / 4.33
Software version 4.2.1 (0)
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Offline applor  
#15 Posted : 26 April 2017 03:19:00(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,652
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post
My concern is not a zig-zag operation in itself, but a (unnecessary) fouling of the (busy) double-track mainline. Swiftly crossing a main line is something different than blocking it for shunting.


And with that in mind I have been working on the station design with that as the main focus.

Here we have the dual track mainline, no turnouts, no interruptions etc.
Followed by an additional 2 platforms which will be used for circumstances where loks needs changing, as well as use by the branch line.
A 5th line accommodates access to the BW area, the e-lok sidings and a pair of freight sheds and can also be used by the branch line.

I welcome suggestions/comments.

plan_alt.jpg
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
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Offline Robert Davies  
#16 Posted : 26 April 2017 12:36:00(UTC)
Robert Davies

United Kingdom   
Joined: 20/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 426
Location: Worcestershire, UK
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post
My concern is not a zig-zag operation in itself, but a (unnecessary) fouling of the (busy) double-track mainline. Swiftly crossing a main line is something different than blocking it for shunting.


And with that in mind I have been working on the station design with that as the main focus.

Here we have the dual track mainline, no turnouts, no interruptions etc.
Followed by an additional 2 platforms which will be used for circumstances where loks needs changing, as well as use by the branch line.
A 5th line accommodates access to the BW area, the e-lok sidings and a pair of freight sheds and can also be used by the branch line.

I welcome suggestions/comments.

plan_alt.jpg

I like this one. I agree with Alsterstreek's comments and I have adopted a similar solution to the one you show for the same reason. I think this looks like a more interesting arrangement in any case and I think that all the loco shunting movements using the orange tracks can be done under the authority of Ra11 signals.

I would suggest that the actual exit signals from the Bw as drawn (and the various groups of sidings joining the grey track) can also be Ra11's but that you will need a Gs (Sh0/Sh1) or an Hp at each end where the grey track joins the blue tracks, which are all main running lines and which therefore need signalling protection. The use of a Gs or an Hp depends whether the grey line round the platform is seen as a running line or a shunting line.
Robert
Era III - IV
2 x Central Station 2 v.2 (60214 + 60215)
Hardware versions 3.6 / 4.33
Software version 4.2.1 (0)
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#17 Posted : 26 April 2017 13:46:50(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,664
Location: Hybrid Home
Internet harvest:

An illustrated German article on a MRR setup replicating an actual steam loco exchange (goods train) in Ottbergen, explaining movements and manoeuvers - see PDF.
EJ_05_2011_Lokwechsel_in_Ottbergen.pdf (499kb) downloaded 42 time(s).

A German-English railway glossary by the Cottbus University of Technology - see PDF.
0-7WortschatzDE.pdf (306kb) downloaded 24 time(s).

2015 videos of a passenger loco exchange at the Dutch-German border. Yes, modern electrics and no BW, but the shunting and track arrangement are quite revealing and educating.

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Offline applor  
#18 Posted : 27 April 2017 01:30:15(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,652
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Hi Robert - yes I have not yet placed signals on the design. I had thought the last grey track could be used as a pass-through for the branch line but on second thoughts it would be more practical kept purely for shunting and will place signals accordingly.

Thanks for sharing those PDF's and videos AK, they were excellent. I see now the practical use of the lok siding for speedy changeover of loks.
I now plan to implement that design in my layout, I will post the modified design later today for validation.

Until then, I found this picture in my book last night and wanted to post it due to the arrangement of signals relevant to this discussion:

Elektroloks_pg34.jpg
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
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Offline applor  
#19 Posted : 27 April 2017 04:55:18(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,652
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Here is the current state of the plan.

I have added lok 'standby' sidings at each end for lokwechseln. The eastern one is also used for BW entry.
It used to be a follow through track but I realised this was not necessary, since loks would need to reverse anyways there would be no through traffic.
The western lok siding still requires a zig-zag movement but it can't be helped.
Note the western side end with the three tracks disappears into the background.
The eastern branchline facilitates shunting movements and since it disappears into the background I think it presents the scene well (for the space anyways), since the western branchline is a ramp up towards a tunnel and so would not be used for shunting.
In the case of freight shunting and depending on direction, the lok would de-couple on tracks 3/4 and then shunted up the eastern branchline and then back down track 5 where it can then be shunted back in the two freight sidings as required.
Unfortunately I had to use some R3 curves and turnouts for the main BW entry but it also couldn't be helped due to space issues but the engine shed also uses those anyways - everything else is wide radius with R5 minimum.

There may be further refinements possible but at least I am happy with how shunting movements would work.

plan_alt_2.jpg
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
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Offline applor  
#20 Posted : 05 May 2017 07:47:59(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,652
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Well quite a few more changes but think I have my track design pretty much locked in.

Just threw some signals in, this is what it looks like at the moment:

Final_plan_station.jpg

I have decided I will be properly segregating the 'city' and 'country' areas of my layout (this is shown down the left side in a diagonal line.

The 3 tracks joining these areas will disappear into the city backdrop. This is also why no approach signal on the left side is shown, since it would be seen before the 'city' layout begins.
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
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Offline Robert Davies  
#21 Posted : 05 May 2017 16:57:19(UTC)
Robert Davies

United Kingdom   
Joined: 20/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 426
Location: Worcestershire, UK
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
Well quite a few more changes but think I have my track design pretty much locked in.

Just threw some signals in, this is what it looks like at the moment:

Final_plan_station.jpg

I have decided I will be properly segregating the 'city' and 'country' areas of my layout (this is shown down the left side in a diagonal line.

The 3 tracks joining these areas will disappear into the city backdrop. This is also why no approach signal on the left side is shown, since it would be seen before the 'city' layout begins.

This looks jolly good. The only comment that I have is that I think the Ws (Ra11) indicator reading out of the grey siding on the right-hand side (immediately to the right of the orange track) ought to be a Gs as it takes you on to a main running (blue) track. A Ws 'feels' a bit lightweight in this situation.
Robert
Era III - IV
2 x Central Station 2 v.2 (60214 + 60215)
Hardware versions 3.6 / 4.33
Software version 4.2.1 (0)
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Offline applor  
#22 Posted : 06 May 2017 02:29:58(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,652
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Thanks for the supportive reply. The siding you are referring to actually already has a Gs and a Ws on it (I indicated Gs signals with a black circle).

I am not sure how often I should use the Ws signals for the BW and sidings, so I have only used them where loks would exit the BW, the repair shed and the e-lok sidings.

The annoying part is I now have some excess Viessman Hp signals that I had already bought based on my old design, which I will now need to sell as well:(

edit: it does seem I forgot to add the hp0/2 signal for the branch line approach on the right side though.
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
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Offline Robert Davies  
#23 Posted : 07 May 2017 15:41:21(UTC)
Robert Davies

United Kingdom   
Joined: 20/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 426
Location: Worcestershire, UK
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
Thanks for the supportive reply. The siding you are referring to actually already has a Gs and a Ws on it (I indicated Gs signals with a black circle).

I am not sure how often I should use the Ws signals for the BW and sidings, so I have only used them where loks would exit the BW, the repair shed and the e-lok sidings.

The annoying part is I now have some excess Viessman Hp signals that I had already bought based on my old design, which I will now need to sell as well:(

edit: it does seem I forgot to add the hp0/2 signal for the branch line approach on the right side though.

Sorry - I should have realised that a black dot + W means Gs + Ra11. This is, in my opinion, the ideal combination but I didn't want to suggest it as it might look like overkill. Combinations of Gs + Ra11 are pretty common and I have a number of places on my proposed layout that will have Hp, Gs and Ra11 at the same spot.

I think you have the right balance of Ra11's in the yard. You have applied them at the exit of groups of sidings which I am sure is prototypical. After all, in the real world, someone has to have control over them and sprinkling them like confetti is asking for short cuts to be taken. I guess that it is all about the purpose of the various sidings and the frequency with which they would be used - what you have provided looks perfectly realistic.

Robert
Era III - IV
2 x Central Station 2 v.2 (60214 + 60215)
Hardware versions 3.6 / 4.33
Software version 4.2.1 (0)
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Robert Davies
Offline applor  
#24 Posted : 07 May 2017 23:48:54(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,652
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Thanks Robert.

The only thing I feel that might be missing (a bit OT though) is I don't have a designated pocket siding for a shunter - though I am not sure if that is prototypical or not.

Otherwise, would a shunter stay stored in the roundhouse until required? Given the low freight traffic of my BW, a shunter would not be required all that often.

edit: made room for a shunters siding

Final_plan_station.jpg

Edited by user 08 May 2017 04:24:18(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by applor
Offline applor  
#25 Posted : 11 May 2017 00:14:32(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,652
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
I haven't had a response from you yet AK, what are your thoughts on this signal arrangement?

I am quite sure about the main line station signals but not so much the 'grey' areas.
I get the feeling that sh0/1 signals should be used on the freight sidings at the least (regardless of the fact it does not impact on the main lines)

It may be a bit confusing as to what is what in the plan though, so here is the explanation starting from left to right:

3 left side sidings are freight sidings
then we have the little shunters pocket
then the two long sidings are for storing e-loks
then the triple siding is the maintenance/repair shed
Lastly ending in the actual BW with facilities and turntable in the middle.
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
Offline Alsterstreek  
#26 Posted : 11 May 2017 13:42:51(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,664
Location: Hybrid Home
Well done: In my view it is perfect as it is.
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