Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC) Posts: 14,874 Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
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Hi, over many years I have been constructing an overhead system and over many years have improved how it can be done, living in an area, the last place on earth, it wasn't easy to get around to figure out how it should be done as Perth (Western Australia) didn't have an electrified rail net work, I'm still not 100 % sure which wire goes over or under when two wires meet at a turnout or double turnout but otherwise I've figured it out what's what. in the beginning I used to buy already made up wires but these days I just bay the bare wire and construct the system myself, again more work involved in it and a lot more time to do it. first one starts with the masts and figure out where they should be placed (with 2 guidance plates), when you're happy with the location you can start with the bottom wire secure it on one solid end, work your way up the track and secure it on the other end, by soldering more wires together, I do this by slightly bending each end up, you know have a established a rigid bottom wire, make sure the pantographs are within the limits of the wire. than the top wire which you guide through the sling hole of the mast itself, the next step is measuring the wire from mast to mast and than place an upright wire in the middle and work your uprights towards each mast considering the same distance of the uprights should be on either side of the mast. my latest innovation has been I bend the uprights at the end over this gives a more secure soldering point on the bottom wire and to some extend you'll find this on the prototypical system as well. the height or length of the middle upright wire give you the termination how far away the top wire should be and you work your way along and place all other uprights and solder them as well. by the time you've soldered the middle upright the top wire will automatically shape itself from the mast position to the middle position of the wire. each mast has a long and short outrigger and this determends that the wire moves between 2 masts from left to right on the pantograph(s). in a double track curved situation it always be the longer outrigger on the in side track and the short outrigger on the outside track, this is necessary because of the tension the wire is under. in the end I clean up the solder joints. this is pretty much all you have to do. John                  Edited by user 08 March 2017 16:45:40(UTC)
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 11 users liked this useful post by river6109
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applor, PJMärklin, dennisb, Tom Jessop, ktsolias, xxup, PMPeter, Danlake, Dave Banks, dominator, petestra
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Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC) Posts: 3,997
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 4 users liked this useful post by DaleSchultz
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Joined: 31/10/2009(UTC) Posts: 609 Location: Toronto, Ontario
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John;
Thank you this post. Can I ask how long it took you to become proficient in soldering? Also, what kind of soldering machine are you using?
Thanks
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 1 user liked this useful post by jcrtrains
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Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC) Posts: 14,874 Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
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Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz  Dale thanks for that, when I construct my overhead system the lower wire (500mm) is continuously soldered to next one therefore the end of the wire could be anywhere between 2 masts. although one can buy different length wires from Sommerfeldt (ready made up) which would suit your construction John |
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Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC) Posts: 14,874 Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
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Originally Posted by: jcrtrains  John;
Thank you this post. Can I ask how long it took you to become proficient in soldering? Also, what kind of soldering machine are you using?
Thanks with the pictures you've seen I'm not happy with the soldering results, I used an ordinary soldering iron but will use my other soldering iron in future and you will notice the difference. the one I use all the time is a 100 watt soldering iron and it has a double tweezer tips and I've just ordered another pair of tips with a 2mm width, they are usually used for smd led's but come in handy soldering wires together which makes it much more tidy, I also use a paste (non corrosive) and the same with the solder its led free. there is no secret or special talent to do what I do, is just using the correct tools or tools which are suitable for the job you would like to get done. the next pictures I will [post you will see the difference   |
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Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC) Posts: 3,997
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Originally Posted by: river6109 
Dale thanks for that, when I construct my overhead system the lower wire (500mm) is continuously soldered to next one therefore the end of the wire could be anywhere between 2 masts. although one can buy different length wires from Sommerfeldt (ready made up) which would suit your construction
John
Are you describing a problem? I don't see how the length of the wire is an issue, even if soldered to be continuous. It is the length of the arms on the catenary posts, and the spacing between them on curves that determines if the catenary is within the required space. |
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 1 user liked this useful post by DaleSchultz
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Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC) Posts: 14,874 Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
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Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz  Originally Posted by: river6109 
Dale thanks for that, when I construct my overhead system the lower wire (500mm) is continuously soldered to next one therefore the end of the wire could be anywhere between 2 masts. although one can buy different length wires from Sommerfeldt (ready made up) which would suit your construction
John
Are you describing a problem? I don't see how the length of the wire is an issue, even if soldered to be continuous. It is the length of the arms on the catenary posts, and the spacing between them on curves that determines if the catenary is within the required space. Dale, the guide I'm using (Sommerfeldt) is for determine the distance where the mast (4 distances, all the depends which mast you using) is fixed to the board than you've got holes which determine the distance from one mast to another and when you stand the guide up you can determine where the outrigger is placed or the arm if you don't use an outrigger., so I don't have a problem with how I construct the overhead system with the guide I'm using. John |
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Joined: 14/12/2002(UTC) Posts: 800 Location: Newcastle NSW Australia
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I have just been looking at a brochure from a wholesale tool company & they have special on MIG welder wire with a 0.9mm size, looks to be copper plated . Would this be suitable for the lower catenary contact wire with the upper wire soldered to hangers / droppers which are then soldered to the contact wire . This would then give a continuous wire without joins for the running lower wire . Just a thought , I have never used a MIG welder but realise the wire is reasonably stiff which would make t easy to follow the required curvature .
Cheers Tom in Oz ,with a touch of madness crossed with a enquiring mind .
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Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC) Posts: 1,768 Location: Brisbane, Queensland
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Have you been using the Sommerfeldt 82 flux? It should help the solder flow much quicker to avoid any blobby joints. |
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany |
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Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC) Posts: 3,997
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I was taught to avoid using flux when soldering. It leads to premature oxidation later (or something like that).
I found that the Sommerfeld catenary readily accepted solder and so there was no need for flux anyway.
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 2 users liked this useful post by DaleSchultz
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Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC) Posts: 14,874 Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
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Originally Posted by: Tom Jessop  I have just been looking at a brochure from a wholesale tool company & they have special on MIG welder wire with a 0.9mm size, looks to be copper plated . Would this be suitable for the lower catenary contact wire with the upper wire soldered to hangers / droppers which are then soldered to the contact wire . This would then give a continuous wire without joins for the running lower wire . Just a thought , I have never used a MIG welder but realise the wire is reasonably stiff which would make t easy to follow the required curvature .
Cheers Tom in Oz ,with a touch of madness crossed with a enquiring mind . I've looked at a UK company (roll of copper wire) but never was sure how stiff it was so I've declined to buy it and went back to Sommerfeldt. John |
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Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC) Posts: 14,874 Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
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Originally Posted by: applor  Have you been using the Sommerfeldt 82 flux? It should help the solder flow much quicker to avoid any blobby joints. I've used it before and it was a disaster, all of the wires oxidated |
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Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC) Posts: 1,768 Location: Brisbane, Queensland
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If you are using a non-resin flux you will need to use it sparingly and clean it immediately with isopropyl is all. |
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany |
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Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,319 Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
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Originally Posted by: river6109  Originally Posted by: applor  Have you been using the Sommerfeldt 82 flux? It should help the solder flow much quicker to avoid any blobby joints. I've used it before and it was a disaster, all of the wires oxidated I think I read somewhere that Sommerfeldt recommend cleaning the solder fluxed areas post assembly with a solvent/spirit (to remove any left over solder oil). Then they provide paint to give the wire the proper color, which should further reduce odds of oxidation. |
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Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,319 Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
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Tacking onto this generically named thread, I've got a specific question pertaining to the planning of the layout of track vs cantenary posts. Specifically given that the cantenary is for optics only - will not be powering the locomotives. So in tunnels and other non-visible areas, no cantenary will be installed and the pickups will be eased to the wires via ramped wires in various ways. What are the gotchas- if there are any - between - planning for the cantenary at the start (when doing layout planning)
vs
- planning and building the layout and afterwards placing cantenary
I realize that one general thing to consider is the placement of masts in inside curves, where the clearance to the cars midpoints to avoid contact (eg in a 360mm R1) is critical. I also realize that considering whats next to the track to allow room for placement of masts is important. Masts can be integrated into the landscape scenery easily enough, even with slopes and hills, but if a building, fence, road, or train-room hard wall is in the way, thats another problem. Beyond that though... what else does one look out for. I'm wanting to stage things.. so build the layout first, then at a future date, start thinking about installing cantenary. However, I don't want to paint myself into an unsolvable corner if I can avoid it. |
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Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC) Posts: 2,261 Location: Hobart, Australia
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Originally Posted by: Minok  What are the gotchas- if there are any - between - planning for the cantenary at the start (when doing layout planning)
vs
- planning and building the layout and afterwards placing cantenary
Hello Thomas, I was not sure what a "gotcha" is but the ethers provided : " noun1 N. Amer. an instance of catching someone out or exposing them to ridicule. 2 N. Amer. a sudden unforeseen problem. ORIGIN 1930s: representing a pronunciation." So I expect meaning #2 applies. May I respond that I built all my layout with the firm intention of ultimately building a Sommerfeldt Catenary however I made no modifications to the layout plan with this intention in mind.I subsequently just built the catenary to suit the layout. Regards, PJ        
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 5 users liked this useful post by PJMärklin
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Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC) Posts: 2,883 Location: South Western France
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Originally Posted by: PJMärklin  Originally Posted by: Minok  What are the gotchas- if there are any - between - planning for the cantenary at the start (when doing layout planning)
vs
- planning and building the layout and afterwards placing cantenary
Hello Thomas, I was not sure what a "gotcha" is but the ethers provided : " noun1 N. Amer. an instance of catching someone out or exposing them to ridicule. 2 N. Amer. a sudden unforeseen problem. ORIGIN 1930s: representing a pronunciation." So I expect meaning #2 applies. May I respond that I built all my layout with the firm intention of ultimately building a Sommerfeldt Catenary however I made no modifications to the layout plan with this intention in mind.I subsequently just built the catenary to suit the layout. Regards, PJ ..... Hi PJ! Great catenary job! Looks like someone has been (carefully!) reading Mr Sommerfeldt book on building a model catenary! Hats off! (You don't need to look that one up in the dictionnary, do you ?  ) Cheers Jacques |
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success! |
 1 user liked this useful post by jvuye
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Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC) Posts: 2,261 Location: Hobart, Australia
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Originally Posted by: jvuye  Hi PJ! Great catenary job! Looks like someone has been (carefully!) reading Mr Sommerfeldt book on building a model catenary! Hats off! (You don't need to look that one up in the dictionnary, do you ?  ) Cheers Jacques Hello Jacques, Thank you for your kind comments. Also involved much reading of this book! :  Regards, Philip
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 2 users liked this useful post by PJMärklin
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Joined: 31/10/2009(UTC) Posts: 609 Location: Toronto, Ontario
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I am at the start of putting up catenary albeit Veissmann. I have about twenty odd masts up. I am not changing the layout, but as it is fully sceniced, there is some 'scenery clearing / digging ' to get the masts placed properly. Unavoidable and not a big deal.
I think the message is you can add catenary at any time on your layout journey.
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 1 user liked this useful post by jcrtrains
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Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC) Posts: 2,883 Location: South Western France
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Originally Posted by: PJMärklin  Originally Posted by: jvuye  Hi PJ! Great catenary job! Looks like someone has been (carefully!) reading Mr Sommerfeldt book on building a model catenary! Hats off! (You don't need to look that one up in the dictionnary, do you ?  ) Cheers Jacques Hello Jacques, Thank you for your kind comments. Also involved much reading of this book! : ..... Regards, Philip Yes ! Best two books on the subject. You're all set! If the seas ever carry me back again in your neighborhood I'll have to drop anchor in Hobbart and come and play trains with you! |
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success! |
 1 user liked this useful post by jvuye
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Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC) Posts: 2,261 Location: Hobart, Australia
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Originally Posted by: jvuye  If the seas ever carry me back again in your neighborhood I'll have to drop anchor in Hobbart and come and play trains with you! Hello again Jacques, You would be very welcome. I think you would find the cruising areas around southeast Tasmania enjoyable yachting - as did various French explorers in the late 1700's. Below we are anchored in a bay off the D'Entrecasteaux Channel and ahead is Bruny island. Both named for Antoine Bruni d'Entrecasteaux who explored the area in 1792. The English (in Sydney) were concerned the French wanted to settle Van Dieman's Land (now Tasmania) and sent a preemptive party to settle Hobart in 1803 - the second settlement in Australia after Sydney; the rest is history!  Regards, Philip
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Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC) Posts: 14,874 Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
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Originally Posted by: jcrtrains  I am at the start of putting up catenary albeit Veissmann. I have about twenty odd masts up. I am not changing the layout, but as it is fully sceniced, there is some 'scenery clearing / digging ' to get the masts placed properly. Unavoidable and not a big deal.
I think the message is you can add catenary at any time on your layout journey. not always, there are moments when you need the right setup especially with cross spans, keep in mind a simple setup wouldn't need special requirements. John |
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Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,319 Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
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Originally Posted by: river6109  Originally Posted by: jcrtrains  I am at the start of putting up catenary albeit Veissmann. I have about twenty odd masts up. I am not changing the layout, but as it is fully sceniced, there is some 'scenery clearing / digging ' to get the masts placed properly. Unavoidable and not a big deal.
I think the message is you can add catenary at any time on your layout journey. not always, there are moments when you need the right setup especially with cross spans, keep in mind a simple setup wouldn't need special requirements. John Can you elaborate? Picture? In looking at some of the cantenary work, its clear that you do have to put in some basic planning which I suspect just occurs naturally anyway. You do need to have space to put the masts; its only maybe an inch beside the key tracks but it needs to be there, be it at the layout edge (common practice anyway) or certain spots of a yard/field of track, or beside a cliff wall. But the trickier bits that are not so obvious, maybe what you are referring to.. that what I'd like to understand. |
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Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,319 Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
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 2 users liked this useful post by Minok
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Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC) Posts: 14,874 Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
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I'm living in an area whereas electric trains didn't exists until the 90's so it was hard for me to construct the overhead system as it should have done. I had the Sommerfeldt construction booklet but until you see it in real life I couldn't really understand the workings of it. what I've referred to is mainly when you have cross spans and within the cross span you have a number of turnouts this when it becomes tricky feeding the wires back to one of the masts, when I've finished mine I'll show some pictures of it. I've made already one mistake: I should have put the mast 1 more track further out. but I've done already the cross span wires so I couldn't be bothered to take it all down again and start afresh by placing the mast 1 track further apart. the first picture above illustrates the one scenario.
regards.,
John |
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 1 user liked this useful post by river6109
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