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Offline jcrtrains  
#1 Posted : 07 March 2017 02:05:53(UTC)
jcrtrains

Canada   
Joined: 31/10/2009(UTC)
Posts: 597
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Folks;

I am considering installing catenary. In one of the discussions at a local hobby shop, the owner indicated that making things run off catenary may be a thing of the past as major manufacturers have stopped making working pantographs. I was stunned by that comment, but now that I look closely at some of the bigger manufacturers new models, they seem to have all stopped.

When did this occur? Is it primarily as it is considered less reliable with digital? Is it cost cutting or something else?
Offline applor  
#2 Posted : 07 March 2017 03:03:56(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,653
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
There is no reason to run them off the catenary because locomotives are controlled with a digital address these days.
Previously with analogue a separate overhead system allowed you to run a second train on the same track (separate power circuits).
Now with digital you can run as many as you want on the standard track connection.
You still have catenary and pantographs up if you want, they just don't get their power from it.

You can run trains off most catenary if you connect the catenary to a power feed - though the only reason would be if you either ran analogue still or you like to see the sparks you sometimes get.

Marklin and Sommerfeldt allow power from overheads and I think Viessman too? - really any overhead that has a metal wire can be connected to feed trains, with varying levels of work.
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
Offline jcrtrains  
#3 Posted : 07 March 2017 03:07:02(UTC)
jcrtrains

Canada   
Joined: 31/10/2009(UTC)
Posts: 597
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Yeah - I know. I am an analogue dinosaur that most manufacturers don't care about.
Offline baggio  
#4 Posted : 07 March 2017 04:16:12(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
If you like catenary, then go ahead and install a catenary layout, perhaps as a smaller portion of you main and really nice layout. Speak to Mike and he will help you out.

Incidentally, my Marklin FS424 - now digitized - used to run on catenary and I think it still does.

In this respect, fkowal, one of the forum members in Toronto who came to your open house, is very actively building a catenary Marklin layout and he,too, has a great layout.

Give him a shout and the two of you can have a lot of fun building a catenary layout.


A question comes to mind: Can one run a DC loco on a AC catenary layout and viceversa?
Offline GLI  
#5 Posted : 07 March 2017 06:26:26(UTC)
GLI


Joined: 28/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 82
Location: Lithgow NSW Australia
Hi dcrtrains

When you refer to working pantographs and working off catenary, I presume you mean running you locos on digital using current picked by the pantographs from live catenary. I have used live catenary with digital control for many years now and have had no problems.

Initially when first changing over to digital, I accepted the "expert's" advice (Lenz) not to use live catenary with digital control as apparantly excess voltage surges would destroy the decoder. I had previously run all my electric outline locos 3 rail analogue using the catenary, and, with two exceptions, they all ran very smoothly and relialbly. My initial experiments with digital were in 2 rail, so I had to convert all those electric locos that were initially 2 rail back to 2 rail before installing decoders. The results were not very encouraging: cuirrent pickup was unreliable, and running was erratic. One loco, a Hag Re6/6 with the Type 88 motor actually destroyed three decoders. It would suddenly take off at top speed without warning, and by the time I got it off the track, the decoder was destroyed.

I discussed the problem with a Marklin trader at an exhibition in Canberra, and decided to return to using the catenary to supply the digital current to the locos. All my problems immediately disappeared; locos ran smoothly and reliably with the superior control that is available using digital. The only problem I had were the two excleptions I previously referred to above: these were Marklin models of the Ae 6/6 which were introduced in the 1990's. I had never been able to get these to run reliably in analogue, and I hoped that converting them to digital would solve the problem, but it did not work. I was running one of the locos in poor light one afternoon when I noticed that there was bluish arcing of electricity at the elbow joints on the pantographs. I checked the other Ae 6/6 and it exhibited the same problem. I immediately dabbed a bit of graphite suspended in a light oil on each of the elbow joints. The arcing ceased immediately and both locos ran smoothly and relaibly, and have done so for the last 20 years. The Hag Re 6/6 has not destroyed a decoder since.

Why are manufacturers not installing working decoders? So far as I am aware, Markoin have not installed working pantographs in some of their more basic models, which is clearly to cut costs. I also understand that locos with pantographs that can be digitally raised and lowered, such as the Insider Model of the BR 103.1 cannot be used to pick up current from live catenary. But so far as I am aware, most other locos from most of the manufacturers come with working pantographs. If not, it is a relatively simple task to modify them so they will pick up current from the catenary. If I were to acquire one of the Insider 103.1s, I would deactivate the mechanism for raising the pantographs which I regard as nothing more than a gimic, and alter the pantographs so they could pick up current.

There are a number of other members on the forum who use live catenary on their layouts without problems. I would never contemplate cosmetic only catenary on a layout. If you want live catenay, I would urge you to try it out. I don't think you will regret it.

Regards
Geoff
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Offline river6109  
#6 Posted : 07 March 2017 07:34:39(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
I am also disappointed that manufacturers have stopped having working pantographs, as I run all my electric locos from the overhead power (less shorts) I had to connect a wire to the Pantographs and also made up a pick up power joint. I also noticed the pantographs getting more and more flimsy (maybe prototypical) and this also has given me some concern as each pantograph cost about A$ 30.00 and adding A$ 60.00 to a loco I'm not in favour of it.

of course its all about saving money and time and I'm sure you haven't notice any price reduction because of it.

another reason I like the power from the overhead it gives me more reliability regarding power supply comparing it with getting power from the middle rail, sometimes there is always a problem going over turnouts, these days you can add a power pack but this again cost more money.

first I've noticed it with Jägerndorfer, than with Märklin and now with Roco.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline H0  
#7 Posted : 07 March 2017 07:52:39(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: jcrtrains Go to Quoted Post
I was stunned by that comment, but now that I look closely at some of the bigger manufacturers new models, they seem to have all stopped.
Which gauge? Which manufacturer?

Märklin H0 models with motorised pantographs cannot take current from the catenary. Cheap Hobby models cannot either.
But most other Märklin H0 models still can take power from the catenary.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline RayF  
#8 Posted : 07 March 2017 11:29:37(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
I think Applor has hit the nail on the head in his reply. There is no reason to power your electric locos off the catenary because the only real reason to do so was to have two separate power circuits in analogue days.

All "AC" model locos run off the third rail, so with digital control there is no reason to energise the catenary as it only adds an extra complication. If you run any diesel or steam locos (and who doesn't?) you would need the track feed anyway.

Whether there is any merit in running an electric loco from the overhead or not is irrelevant. As there is no actual need for it on modern digital layouts the manufacturers are not bothering to include it any more. Those 'die-hards' who cannot do without it will find it a trivial matter to add a wire in the loco linking the pantographs to the decoder.

Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline Danlake  
#9 Posted : 07 March 2017 11:50:23(UTC)
Danlake

New Zealand   
Joined: 03/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,571
Hi all,

I have absolute no experience in catenary.

I would love to have some of my layout as I think it looks much better, however I would probably end up hating it as I like to clean my tracks very regularly...

I do however find the observations from users who has done it, interesting. So it appears to be more reliable in terms of picking up the power?

Maybe I'll try it on my next layout, in the futureBigGrin

Brgds Lasse
Digital 11m2 layout / C (M&K) tracks / Era IV / CS3 60226 / Train Controller Gold 9 with 4D sound. Mainly Danish and German Locomotives.
Offline RayF  
#10 Posted : 07 March 2017 12:01:22(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: Danlake Go to Quoted Post
Hi all,

I have absolute no experience in catenary.

I would love to have some of my layout as I think it looks much better, however I would probably end up hating it as I like to clean my tracks very regularly...

I do however find the observations from users who has done it, interesting. So it appears to be more reliable in terms of picking up the power?

Maybe I'll try it on my next layout, in the futureBigGrin

Brgds Lasse


Hi Lasse,

I started to add catenary to my layout in stages to see how it went. I chose the Viessmann catenary which is identical to the newer Marklin type.

Pros:

  • It looks very realistic to see your locos running with pantographs up

  • The catenary masts, cross spans and wires all add to the visual effect for greater realism



Cons:

  • Forget about cleaning your tracks properly! I take all the catenary off once a year to be able to clean the tracks thorougly

  • It is not easy to put a loco or wagon on the tracks with the catenary in place

  • Photographing your layout becomes more difficult


Because of the difficulties I have not added the final stage of catenary on the outer main line of my layout. I haven't decided yet whether I will complete the installation, leave it as it is, or remove it altogether.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline jcrtrains  
#11 Posted : 07 March 2017 13:10:25(UTC)
jcrtrains

Canada   
Joined: 31/10/2009(UTC)
Posts: 597
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Thanks for the comments folks.

I have spent some time at our local Veissmann dealer ( Mike) talking about adding catenary. I have the complete catalogue from him as well and the pages are starting to look well turned.

I will be going ahead with it shortly in stages. I think I will power it, as I have enough older engines that take power from catenary to make it worthwhile.
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Offline baggio  
#12 Posted : 07 March 2017 13:15:37(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Ray:

"Because of the difficulties I have not added the final stage of catenary on the outer main line of my layout. I haven't decided yet whether I will complete the installation, leave it as it is, or remove it altogether."

I am not clear, do do run catenary now?

If so, how do you like it?

Offline RayF  
#13 Posted : 07 March 2017 13:38:30(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
Ray:

"Because of the difficulties I have not added the final stage of catenary on the outer main line of my layout. I haven't decided yet whether I will complete the installation, leave it as it is, or remove it altogether."

I am not clear, do do run catenary now?

If so, how do you like it?



Hi Silvano,

Where I have catenary fitted I run my electric locos with the pantographs up, but I don't take the power from the catenary. All my locos are powered from the centre studs through the slider.

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by RayF
Offline Minok  
#14 Posted : 07 March 2017 20:09:31(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
My suspicion is that the majority of hobbyists that install cantenary on their layouts today, in a digital world, are doing so for cosmetic reasons: it creates a more prototypical look and fee. Its is undeniable that say a BR103 running down a line without cantenary does have that little bit odd look. But one can get used to it, and then it shouldn't bother you beyond that.

Cantenary will be something I consider... but as mentioned, the ability to more easily get at things on the track, and vacuuming, become problematic.

The layout of Gerhard runs with his pantographs set at about 1 mm below contact with the cantenary, to increase reliability, he fixes them:



He has some interesting rigs and double-traction running locos to use his iphone to film his trains with the cantenary: http://www.stummiforum.d...c.php?p=1535733#p1535733
http://www.stummiforum.d...c.php?p=1569509#p1569509


UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
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Offline RayF  
#15 Posted : 07 March 2017 21:28:52(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
I often read articles in the model railway press where they use that trick, of fixing the pantographs at a height just below the wire. It creates the illusion that the pantograph is following the wire but without the risk of slipping off the wire and creating mayhem!

Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline baggio  
#16 Posted : 08 March 2017 00:38:06(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Hi, Ray:

I LOVE that picture of the FS 424 with the pantographs up and the catenary. Drool ThumpUp

Thank you for posting it.

Would you mind if I scalp it? I may want to put it here, there and everywhere. BigGrin
Offline river6109  
#17 Posted : 08 March 2017 02:26:26(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
everybody has their own likes and dislikes, cleaning my tracks isn't difficult at all it just takes more care, the Sommerfeldt catenary is rigid and solid and yes in the beginning one forgets there are wires there but cleaning the tracks with a vacuum cleaner is no trouble at all and I've been doing it for the last 30 years.with a Märklin catenary it may be more difficult to clean the tracks because the wire doesn't extend over 360mm if I remember correctly whereas the Sommerfeldt can go as far as 500mm on straight tracks.
Whether the power comes from the overhead system or the track middle rail is again irrelevant its a choice each of us takes and again I have had no problems with it for the last 30 years. however it takes time and effort to erect a prototypical overhead system and of course there is a cost attached to it and it isn't cheap. there are also a lot of layout whereas the modeler has avoided an overhead system all together by only using steam and diesel locos which has a nostalgic feel to it and is usually well received by other modelers.

having a layout these days and comparing it with today's loco production, we only have 2 options: electric or diesel and these locos become very similar in design and some of them with little changes in their overall structure but have a different gear ratio. diesel locos come under the same category they look pretty much the same.
there are so many different aspects of how you would like to stock up your layout with locos and rolling stock with other words the word "never" shouldn't really come into the quotation, it depends what you are willing to take on board and the overhead system is one of them.

happy modeling

John

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline analogmike  
#18 Posted : 08 March 2017 03:22:03(UTC)
analogmike

United States   
Joined: 02/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 737
Location: NEW JERSEY, USA
Hello all,

As a child I could only dream of having catenary for my M-trains. I had to wait until I was 40 years old to do a permanent layout with cat wire.
To me it is absolutely fascinating to watch an E-lok doing it's thing with the pans up and juice in the wire. When a pantograph is set not to touch the wire it can't go up and down to compensate for height variations like the prototype. I feel that it takes something away from operating the train, sort of like removing the rods from a steamer.

Every visitor asks me the same question; "Does the engine get it's current from the overhead?" I answer "Yes" And turn off the lights so we can enjoy the arcing of the electricity where the wire makes contact with the pantograph. Flapper

mqdefault.jpg

I remove the sliders from my E-loks and don't take them out of the box until catenary us up. Yep I'm totally insane. Woot

My two cents,

Mikey



I love the smell of smoke fluid in the morning .
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Offline mike c  
#19 Posted : 08 March 2017 04:42:36(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
I remember in the 80s and 90s, if you bought a Lima locomotive, it came with pantographs where the bottom half of the arms were plastic. If you wanted to power the locomotive from the catenary, you had to buy two replacement pantographs (all metal) and the kit to connect the pantograph screws to the circuit board inside the lok.
I guess that even back then, some manufacturers were trying to cut costs wherever possible.

The main problem with using some modern digital decoders and catenary is not an issue of voltage and killing decoders, but more likely the fact that an intermittent contact will be interpreted by the decoder as a reverse signal or perhaps putting it into programming mode rather than the intended instructions.

Regards

Mike C
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Offline PJMärklin  
#20 Posted : 08 March 2017 05:57:24(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 2,206
Location: Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
everybody has their own likes and dislikes, cleaning my tracks isn't difficult at all it just takes more care, the Sommerfeldt catenary .....................................




Hello folks,

May I add my recommendations for Sommerfeldt also !!Love

as previously posted :

https://www.marklin-user...rklin-Catalog#post507185


Regards,


PJBigGrin
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Offline river6109  
#21 Posted : 08 March 2017 08:10:28(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: PJMärklin Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
everybody has their own likes and dislikes, cleaning my tracks isn't difficult at all it just takes more care, the Sommerfeldt catenary .....................................




Hello folks,

May I add my recommendations for Sommerfeldt also !!Love

as previously posted :

https://www.marklin-user...rklin-Catalog#post507185


Regards,


PJBigGrin


a lot of work gone into it.ThumpUp ThumpUp

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline river6109  
#22 Posted : 08 March 2017 08:14:20(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
I remember in the 80s and 90s, if you bought a Lima locomotive, it came with pantographs where the bottom half of the arms were plastic. If you wanted to power the locomotive from the catenary, you had to buy two replacement pantographs (all metal) and the kit to connect the pantograph screws to the circuit board inside the lok.
I guess that even back then, some manufacturers were trying to cut costs wherever possible.

The main problem with using some modern digital decoders and catenary is not an issue of voltage and killing decoders, but more likely the fact that an intermittent contact will be interpreted by the decoder as a reverse signal or perhaps putting it into programming mode rather than the intended instructions.

Regards

Mike C


Mike haven't had any problems as such like anything if your middle rail or contacts are not clean or your track is dirty you can experience these sort of failures, don't forget some of my overhead system is over 30 years old and my tracks had much more cleaning done .

John


https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline RayF  
#23 Posted : 08 March 2017 08:23:12(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
Hi, Ray:

I LOVE that picture of the FS 424 with the pantographs up and the catenary. Drool ThumpUp

Thank you for posting it.

Would you mind if I scalp it? I may want to put it here, there and everywhere. BigGrin


Sure, you can use it if you like, as long as it's not used commercially.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline river6109  
#24 Posted : 08 March 2017 09:52:35(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: analogmike Go to Quoted Post
Hello all,

As a child I could only dream of having catenary for my M-trains. I had to wait until I was 40 years old to do a permanent layout with cat wire.
To me it is absolutely fascinating to watch an E-lok doing it's thing with the pans up and juice in the wire. When a pantograph is set not to touch the wire it can't go up and down to compensate for height variations like the prototype. I feel that it takes something away from operating the train, sort of like removing the rods from a steamer.

Every visitor asks me the same question; "Does the engine get it's current from the overhead?" I answer "Yes" And turn off the lights so we can enjoy the arcing of the electricity where the wire makes contact with the pantograph. Flapper

mqdefault.jpg

I remove the sliders from my E-loks and don't take them out of the box until catenary us up. Yep I'm totally insane. Woot

My two cents,

Mikey





Mikey,

one visitor on my Youtube videos said: your locos don't get the power from the overhead system because the pantograph doesn't arc, well of course in most cases they don't arc, running 16 volts through the wires is not going to give you much of arcing, will it., instead of 1000 volts going through the prototype but there is also a solution for it and this will be another job on my innovation list, installing 0402 led's under the wiper to imitate an arc., haven't decided yet what colour I should use white or blue, unfortunately you don't get white leds anymore with a blue streak in it.

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline PJMärklin  
#25 Posted : 08 March 2017 09:55:02(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 2,206
Location: Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post


a lot of work gone into it.ThumpUp ThumpUp




Thanks John, but I think mine has been a mere fraction of the work in your very impressive layout!


Regards,

PJ
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Offline river6109  
#26 Posted : 08 March 2017 10:07:00(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: PJMärklin Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post


a lot of work gone into it.ThumpUp ThumpUp




Thanks John, but I think mine has been a mere fraction of the work in your very impressive layout!


Regards,

PJ


and lucky enough it has evolved over many years, sometimes I look at my layout and think how did I ever produce this, I think the secret is, start young when you get all these crazy ideas and when you get older correct any mistakes or improve your workmanship and do things in small doses at any given time, looking back and the space I had available (a small double garage) if I would have had a track plan of the whole layout I don't think I would have started because it would have been impossible to fit it all in that garage but making it out of modules (2 at the time) I could concentrate on these and nothing else and never envisaged the whole picture, today I look at it and some times I get goose bumbles, its frightening when you get older, it may be a dream for younger people but believe me looking at it its ok but working on it constantly, one raises the eyebrows sometimes and you shake your head: what have I done but than I watch other layouts and this gives me again energy to carry on and hope the finishing touches aren't that far away. waiting for over 30 years to be able to run the trains (without interruptions of dead ends) all around the layout.

John


https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
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Offline analogmike  
#27 Posted : 08 March 2017 13:18:18(UTC)
analogmike

United States   
Joined: 02/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 737
Location: NEW JERSEY, USA
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: analogmike Go to Quoted Post
Hello all,

As a child I could only dream of having catenary for my M-trains. I had to wait until I was 40 years old to do a permanent layout with cat wire.
To me it is absolutely fascinating to watch an E-lok doing it's thing with the pans up and juice in the wire. When a pantograph is set not to touch the wire it can't go up and down to compensate for height variations like the prototype. I feel that it takes something away from operating the train, sort of like removing the rods from a steamer.

Every visitor asks me the same question; "Does the engine get it's current from the overhead?" I answer "Yes" And turn off the lights so we can enjoy the arcing of the electricity where the wire makes contact with the pantograph. Flapper


I remove the sliders from my E-loks and don't take them out of the box until catenary us up. Yep I'm totally insane. Woot

My two cents,

Mikey





Mikey,

one visitor on my Youtube videos said: your locos don't get the power from the overhead system because the pantograph doesn't arc, well of course in most cases they don't arc, running 16 volts through the wires is not going to give you much of arcing, will it., instead of 1000 volts going through the prototype but there is also a solution for it and this will be another job on my innovation list, installing 0402 led's under the wiper to imitate an arc., haven't decided yet what colour I should use white or blue, unfortunately you don't get white leds anymore with a blue streak in it.



Hi river,
Just a correction if I may, On the Northeast Corridor not far from where I live, The Old GG-1's used to run on 11,000 volts AC and when they went to AEM-7's and Accela Express the system was cranked up to 35,000 volts. The best time to go train watching is on a nasty, ice/snow/rainy day. It's like the 4'th of July.
Yes, the Marklin sparks are a dull orange and you must turn off the lights to see it. What really helps is to roll out a Lok that hasn't run in a while and has dirty pans. I'm curious if a little smoke fluid on the pan would produce any smoke? BigGrin BigGrin BigGrin
Mikey
I love the smell of smoke fluid in the morning .
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Offline baggio  
#28 Posted : 08 March 2017 16:40:10(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Sure, you can use it if you like, as long as it's not used commercially.


How is your Italian, Ray? I posted the photo on the Italian forum 3 Rotaie and I already received excellent feedback from one of the administrators.

Here is the link:

3 Rotaie - Ray's photo
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Offline HO Collector  
#29 Posted : 08 March 2017 23:33:46(UTC)
HO Collector

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 195
Location: Just north of London
Interesting conversation so I have a question or two as I have never had catenary experience.

I have a mix of analogue and digital engines. I thought to try and operate the steam/diesel engines via the 3rd rail (or maybe the digital engines) and the analogue via the catenary. How can I create separate circuits of operating modes, i.e. signals, high/low speed etc. while still keeping the correct look of a single wire? Are there any insulators that can be obtained from some source?

Thanks
Offline river6109  
#30 Posted : 09 March 2017 01:26:01(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: HO Collector Go to Quoted Post
Interesting conversation so I have a question or two as I have never had catenary experience.

I have a mix of analogue and digital engines. I thought to try and operate the steam/diesel engines via the 3rd rail (or maybe the digital engines) and the analogue via the catenary. How can I create separate circuits of operating modes, i.e. signals, high/low speed etc. while still keeping the correct look of a single wire? Are there any insulators that can be obtained from some source?

Thanks


create 2 electrical circuits, 1 for the catenary, 1 for the rail, use 2 transformers linked and connected to a separate power socket. you don't need any insulators or isolators.

John

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline HO Collector  
#31 Posted : 10 March 2017 23:31:51(UTC)
HO Collector

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 195
Location: Just north of London
Hi John

Thanks for the answer.
Yes, I understand that there is a need for 2 circuits. But how do I connect the signals to the catenary? After all the signals are a switch that open/close the circuit. All my signals have the spade that placed inside the 3rd rail, one inside the insulated section and one outside. How do I create the insulated section in the catenary?

Thanks
Offline Bones  
#32 Posted : 11 March 2017 04:31:15(UTC)
Bones

Australia   
Joined: 15/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 105
Location: Queensland
I'm only putting my 2 cents worth in here but if you look through the various catenary makers you will they have a fitting to isolate a section

You just have to have the patience to look as they may not be obvious to you at first look

And for me I will have over head for my Electrics since I now have a permanent layout
Offline HO Collector  
#33 Posted : 12 March 2017 23:00:35(UTC)
HO Collector

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 195
Location: Just north of London
Bones

I know that Marklin has an isolation unit but I don't like the look of there catenary and the photos above and in the other thread (constructing a Sommerfeldt catenary) didn't make it clear. But thanks for the tip, I will research it.
Offline PJMärklin  
#34 Posted : 13 March 2017 09:51:15(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 2,206
Location: Hobart, Australia
Hello HOC,



You do not seem to have raised an answer from anyone so even though my layout system is quite out of date to this computerised Modelleisenbahn era, I offer a humble reply.



Originally Posted by: HO Collector Go to Quoted Post


I know that Marklin has an isolation unit but I don't like the look of there catenary and the photos above and in the other thread (constructing a Sommerfeldt catenary) didn't make it clear. ......



Originally Posted by: HO Collector Go to Quoted Post

How do I create the insulated section in the catenary?




Sommmerfeldt has a realistic electrical separation unit (improved lately) that looks like the prototype, see here from their cattledog (https://www.sommerfeldt.de/images/download/sommerfeldt-katalog.pdf) :



UserPostedImage




Since my layout is primarily digital I do not utilise these but I used a similar earlier version on my 1980's analogue layout and all the other parts of my answer have the same principles be it analogue or digital.


Originally Posted by: HO Collector Go to Quoted Post

Yes, I understand that there is a need for 2 circuits. But how do I connect the signals to the catenary? After all the signals are a switch that open/close the circuit.



Actually , the signals are not the effective "switch" but are connected to a relay that controls both the power to the isolated section and also the light signal aspect, thus the light signal reflects, rather than controls the situation.

From your posted questions I gather you are running both digital and analogue and wish to control analogue locomotive power from the catenary reflected in parallel signal appearance. I presume this is a part of a "block" system in analogue. Given you are running both analogue by catenary and digital by "centre rail" you would also need independant digital power connections to an isolated section of track in front of the signal for the digital side but this is how to do it as far as the catenary analogue power side is concerned :

To achieve this simply you use an electrical relay switch: either the original old märklin solenoid relay imaged below, the newer solid state version (see the next following image) or a similar adapted relay from your local electronics store if you are electrically handy. In current times many people will do all this by computer (CS or PC unit) control in various ways.

You need to insulate/isolate a section of the catenary in front of the signal with two of the Sommerfeldt accessory shown above, or other isolating/insulating adaptation if in the area the caternary joins a mast or "Quertragwerk".
Power to that isolated section of catenary (left red wire in image next below) from your analogue locomotive power transformer (right red wire in image next below) is then controlled by the relay. The relay itself is powered by the "light" power - yellow wire on top edge of relay (best to use a separate transformer for all, some or one of illuminating lights, light signals, uncouplers, non-digital points, turn/transfer tables, scenery motors etc). The relay is moved to either pole under control of the two blue wires on top edge of relay:


UserPostedImage


The "newer" märklin "solid state" relay :


UserPostedImage



The same relay also controls power (from signals power source transformer thick green wire) to the signal (green ["Hp 1"] - the thin green wire) when isolated section is activated:


UserPostedImage


or red ["Hp 0"] (thin purple wire) when the relay is set to "power off") ; the same source can be used to determine the setting of the "distant signal" (doubled thin green wire and thin yellow wire) :


UserPostedImage


The relay is controlled by a detection source two blocks ahead (one of the blue wires top edge of relay) of the isolated section under discussion. In my "old-fashioned" layout the detection source is the old märklin contact switch :


UserPostedImage


but there are many other options in current times, including magnet sensitive reed switches, infrared, photo-optical, isolated outer rail contacts and more.


Thus the train entering the next block section triggers a track contact switch, this triggers the relay (the first of the blue wires top edge of relay) which "turns off" the power to the isolated catenary section and changes the signal to red, then further down the line the train on "clearing" the block section two ahead again triggers (by way of a contact or other switch) the relay (the second of the blue wires top edge of relay) , activates the power to the isolated section of catenary and changes the signal back to green.


If you want more detail or references to all this feel free to PM me.



Regards,

PJ

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Offline river6109  
#35 Posted : 13 March 2017 13:48:11(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
not to make things more complicated, I don't use switching tracks anymore as I found them unreliable and with a large layout like mine it is essential that contacts are activated all the time.
my setup is somewhat complicated but it works. there are several electronic boards needed for what I've tried to achieve:

1.) braking and acceleration mode
2.) delayed signal light turnover
3.) opto couplers instead of switching tracks
4.) ESU servo motors
5.) ESU servo switch pilots modules and a different opto couplers added

this set up means that the configuration of trains is automatically controlled,

the opto coupler is set between sleepers and when a loco with a slider(pickup shoe ) goes over the opto coupler gets activated, sends the signal to the braking and acceleration modul, activates the turnout servo motor via another type of opto coupler (from 5volt DC to 16 volt AC) and at the same time the signal module will change the light on the signal in a delayed slower action.

the set up with the overhead system is the same as that of the track set up, initiation of braking mode, braking mode and this is done by the illustration above (PJ).

again my set up is more complicated as any cross span has also to be isolated (wires) from track to track especially in a station or siding.

I roughly calculated how long it takes me to do a stretch of overhead (1.5m) its over 3 hours.

I will have a video or photos how the overhead system is constructed.

John




https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline river6109  
#36 Posted : 13 March 2017 13:51:34(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
PJ, what I would recommend with your relays to place a resistor between the red wires (digital mode) this will prevent the loco of loosing its digital signal when the power is in "Off" position

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline HO Collector  
#37 Posted : 15 March 2017 23:40:42(UTC)
HO Collector

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 195
Location: Just north of London
PJ and John

Thanks very much for your answers.

PJ
I have an analogue layout only, so the digital runs as analogue. Currently I am thinking the layout that I want to have and am learning the subject, digital is an enigma for me especially as i want to control the layout by a PC but don't want to spend money on decoders. I wanted to travel to Germany this September but i don't think that this will happen due to clash of dates, the catalogue is not a great source of info and the UK dealers that used to be around the UK have disappeared so have to ask my silly questions on here.

John
I have the split outside rail sensor and the one with the small plastic knob that the pick up shoe passes over and push. I found that both are not very reliable and sometime the contact is not made so now I am leaning towards magnets with Reed switches. My analogue layout is automatically controlled by the trains and the greatest fun is planning a new layout every time the models come out of the boxes. It takes 2-3 days to set up and a day to repack. Now i want to have a large display with running water, moving boats, road traffic with trams etc. but the Mrs. is in my way (;-((, will sort her out (:-))
Offline river6109  
#38 Posted : 16 March 2017 03:23:37(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: HO Collector Go to Quoted Post
PJ and John

Thanks very much for your answers.

PJ
I have an analogue layout only, so the digital runs as analogue. Currently I am thinking the layout that I want to have and am learning the subject, digital is an enigma for me especially as i want to control the layout by a PC but don't want to spend money on decoders. I wanted to travel to Germany this September but i don't think that this will happen due to clash of dates, the catalogue is not a great source of info and the UK dealers that used to be around the UK have disappeared so have to ask my silly questions on here.

John
I have the split outside rail sensor and the one with the small plastic knob that the pick up shoe passes over and push. I found that both are not very reliable and sometime the contact is not made so now I am leaning towards magnets with Reed switches. My analogue layout is automatically controlled by the trains and the greatest fun is planning a new layout every time the models come out of the boxes. It takes 2-3 days to set up and a day to repack. Now i want to have a large display with running water, moving boats, road traffic with trams etc. but the Mrs. is in my way (;-((, will sort her out (:-))


a Mrs. is never in the way, she is the one who keeps you going one way or another, you have to start with model trains early in your marriage and preferable bring model trains into your marriage,



https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline HO Collector  
#39 Posted : 16 March 2017 20:43:58(UTC)
HO Collector

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 195
Location: Just north of London
BigGrin
You haven't meat my Mrs, no, she keeps me with feet on the ground.
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